Bugs --

There is nothing legal between you. No agreements, no signed documents.
You do NOT have to let her go.
Basically, WH has abandoned you both. By your graciousness, you have allowed him to see her. But it is not required by any legal document.

Lawyers tend to look at things from CYA perspective. Not aggressive enough for this situation.

He is choosing to spend the weekend with HO. Not daughter. She's just an addition to the weekend. He's bringing her because he's SUPPOSED to have her. Plus he's trying to expose OW to her in a "safe" environment -- where DD may not put it all together.

I guess I would check the Pro's opinions on exposing to DD. Melody Lane just the other day said any child over age 6 should be told the truth.

I think best option is to keep her home.
Next best would to make sure she knows OW is OW.

WHAT KIND OF LONG TERM EFFECTS? Shucks, actual child molesters don't even go to jail...and WHAT KIND OF ESTABLISHED SCHEDULE? You don't have a LEGAL SEPARATION AGREEMENT, yet, do you? He wouldn't have a legal leg to stand on, would he? And, I bet you could appeal to the JUDGE in the LONG RUN, letting the court know where you would be sending your daughter..on a camping trip..with a bunch of HEATHENS.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />




If I was there, Bugs, I would have told you to "GO AHEAD AND BEAT YOUR HEAD AGAINST THE WALL"...It went downhill from then on..this was USELESS and gave him a SENSE OF POWER AND ENTITLEMENT.

I wish I could have helped you to say: "She is not going regardless of what you say to me"....




THIS IS AN OUT AND OUT LIE!!!!





WASTED TIME AND EFFORT!!! Just like I gave my then WH a copy of SAA and he said: "THAT BOOK DOESN'T APPLY TO ME"....





This crap coming out of his mouth shows that he will not PROTECT her this WEEKEND. So with this line of reasoning, I guess it's SINK OR SWIM. Throw her into the deep end of the pool..without lessons..WITHOUT A LIFE GUARD PRESENT...Or, let's BURN her HAND to help her learn that FIRE IS DANGEROUS and can KILL YOU....





You thought that you would help him to understand, acknowledge and recognize this? HE DOESN'T CARE, BUGS!! He's a WH..all he will care about this weekend is BINGING OFF OF THE OW!!! He may say something differently NOW but once he is there THE OW WILL BE HIS MAJOR FOCUS. Do you think SHE CARES ABOUT YOUR DAUGHTER? Do you think she is not going to RESENT ANYTIME that HE SPENDS WITH HER???





And did you think you were going to EDUCATE HIM? How did he fool you into thinking this?

How did he gain the UPPER HAND?

I hate it for YOU. I hate it for YOUR DAUGHTER....




No, I am FUMING.at his UTTER NARCISSISM AND LACK OF CARE AND CONCERN FOR HIS DAUGHTER!!!

I say that YOU ARE IN A WAR..against his affair...

And if it was me, THE WAR WOULD BE IN FORCE THIS WEEKEND...

IF YOU GIVE ON THIS, BUGS, HE WILL TAKE MORE AND MORE...

I SAY PUT YOUR FOOT DOWN and HE WILL RESPECT YOU...

BE WILLING TO LET HIM TAKE YOU TO COURT ON THIS...




SO DO PLAN B.

You're going to GIVE UP and send your daughter OFF WITH THE HOGS???

That will be SOOOO SCARY and CONFUSING FOR HER.

It will be almost better if it WAS NOT a CAMPING TRIP with a bunch of people. It's NO TELLING WHAT SHE WILL SEE AND HEAR...GIVES ME THE ABSOLUTE CHILLS TO THINK ABOUT IT....

Mimi - -

You caring and PASSION on behalf of me & DD is almost Overwhelming. Thank you.

I just have a second here, but wanted to let everyone know

DD IS NOT GOING THIS WEEKEND. THAT IS A DONE DEAL. CONFIRMED SIGNED SEALED DELIVERED AND CONFIRMED WITH WH .

God MOVES in mysterious ways - But do not EVER doubt that He hears our prayers. He heard mine!

I'll try to ck back again later, but may not have time

Thanks again for the concern & support!

Awesome! PM up and doing the happy dance. What happened???? I'm holding my breath until you come back and tell us.

I am so excited to hear this!!!!

I've been thinking about it all morning!!!


YEAHHHHHHHH! Good guys are winning Mimi!!!!

Mimi, PM & Lexxy,,,,


Thanks everyone for the swift kick in the pants,,,,I do appreciate it.

I was up all night long. First throwing up, then crying my eyes out, then getting really really mad. Mad at myself and mad at WH. The one thing I did thru it all was to pray. I prayed and prayed and prayed.

Yesterday before talking to WH, I had given it all over to God. I trusted him to give me the words to say, the ability to hold my tongue or not, the entire thing. In a very surreal way, I went thru the entire day and night.

I was loaded for the fight this morning. Thanks to the swift kicks here, my own heart, and anguishing night I knew what had to be done. God chose a slightly different path.

Before I could say a word this morning to WH, I find out that DD has been up all night long throwing up. WH told me that he knew she wouldn't be going camping and even had told DD before calling me that she would not be going.

I still made it clear to WH, sick or not, camping or any other activity with OW is not going to happen.

Of course he avoided that whole conversation. IT WILL BE REVISITED as many times as necessary.


I spent most of the morning crying. Lots of emotions going thru me,,,, Having been ready to do whatever to keep her from going and then having it go the way it did was just overwhelming.

I feel HORRIBLE that I was somewhat 'glad' that this happened,,,,how could your child being ill ever be a good thing???? What kind of a mother am I that I felt a sense of relief that her discomfort kept ME from having to
do what I needed to do to protect her?

I've spent most of the day beating myself up. I spent this afternoon just holding her, loving her, cuddling, and feeling really, really guilty at almost having failed her so! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Note,,,, PLEASE no one take my interpretation of the events to mean that I think that God made my DD sick. I do not believe that. God wants us ALL to have happy, HEALTHY lives on a daily basis. I do believe, however, that he allowed it to happen at this time for this situation. PLEASE do not start in with a debate about this, it's JMO.

I hear ya bugs. I'm not gonna start a religous debate....but amazing. An answer.

Now you get to give that little girl extra love!

And I just gotta giggle at WH having to deal with a puking child all night......

Don't beat yourself up. No need bugs. You're doing awesome in a horribly awful situation. You should be admired, not beat up -- even by you!

(ok....this isn't very nice of me -- but I hope WH catches what she has.....)

WHAT A BLESSING..GOD WORKS IN MYSTERIOUS WAYS!!!

I recommend the book THE FIVE PEOPLE YOU MEET IN HEAVEN by ALBOM...a quick read...

Bugs:

How did the reat of the conversation go?

Or did the conversation not occur because of DD illness?

Hope she's better...

LG

Good morning.

I think both DD & I are doing better this am. She stopped throwing up late yesterday afternoon (Thank God Again!) and managed to eat a little bit last night. She slept good.

I, too, feel a little bit better today. Just knowing she'll be with me and safe HUGE. One battle won. I expect more in the very near future.

Talked to WH for just a second this am. I had DD call him. I gave him a brief update on her.

He had to get one last "so she is canceled for the weekend?"
WHY he said this is BEYOND me,,,, He even told me last night that he would have DSS walk up our house from the sitter's today so that DD would not see him picking up DSS. That it would be better that way so she would not get so upset.

I couldn't help myself, I replied, "I'm sorry,,, who is canceled for WHAT weekend??" calm, cool & collected.

WH - "DD"

Bugs - "She is not going."

WH was quiet,,,then said Ok. The silence.

In my normal, going on with life as normal voice, told him we had to go. Bye.

My prayers now include, so very much like PM's, that God breaks WH and opens his eyes.

I was thinking last night how WH lies so much that he can't even keep his own lies straight.

Wed. am he tells me he "hasn't decided" about OW going for the weekend.

Wed pm, he tells me that he "can't cancel" any of the trip because SO MANY people are involved,,, OW, her sister, her friend, and all of the kids.

WOW - - -My Neon Flashing Tatoo on my forehead that reads "STUPID" must have really been flashing for me to have been that dumb not to catch any of that. DUH!!

I told my Mom,, I really wonder why I even bother to talk to him at all.

Which leads to,,,,,,,,,How I will be Implementing Plan B.

I had emailed the Harleys about the camping trip issue. Joyce emailed me back and wanted me to call in to the show yesterday. With work and DD sick, I couldn't do it. Joyce emailed back again, and we are going to try for Monday. I know I'll get some GREAT advice there and will be sure to share here. I expect Plan B implementation right away.

I am ready. I do not need this interaction. I need nice, quiet, dark, dark, dark when it comes to WH so that I can start living my life in The Light, Light, Light.

My sister is coming tomorrow. We are going to work on going thru all of the stuff in the attic. Organize & get ready for pending move.

Mimi - I'll ck out that book. I read A LOT and am always looking for recommendations, thanks!

Happy Friday! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

OH!!! I hope I can listen on Monday. How exciting!


Bugs; take this from his interactions:

Of course he was lying to you. He knew all along OW was going. In fact it sounds like she's the kingpin of the whole deal. So the fact that he was evasive, and couldn't tell you the truth, and outright lied -- shows you he is still CONFLICTED.

If he had zero consideration for you, did not care about your feelings, he would have flat out told you OW was going. And not cared that it hurt you. In fact, he would have LIKED hurting you so that you would get over this faster.

He is still trying to HIDE her from you. As ridiculous as this might sound given the fact that he is trying to divorce you and is in the midst of a full blown affair -- his actions show he's trying to avoid hurting you.

Will you have the opportunity to talk to DSS before the trip? Does he know that OW is OW? Does he know the real deal? You might want to have a little heart to heart with him today. Let him in on your plan, because that poor kid needs to know someone is looking out for him.

Let him know you WANT to stay married to his dad. That you WANT to be his mother. That WH is fogged out because of OW, but you are working on it. You have a plan.

Lexxxy,

Hmmmm, I have read thru your post a couple of times now,,,and am confused. Can you help me out here?



You really think CONFLICTED? Not just hiding it, delaying telling me the truth to SABOTAGE what he knew I would do? He knew I'd prevent DD from going.



Despite all of the other hurtful things he's done & said?



It does sound ridiculous to me,,,,,no offense intended to you,,,,but I'm having a hard time getting my mind around this one. I know he's still not telling his FAMILY and any friends that we both interact with much, if anything, about OW - but I take that more as him protecting himself, his own "IMAGE" with those people not that it has anything to do with me or my feelings.

The other night he sat there "explaining" to me his reasons WHY the trip and the A are all OK. How he was done with me months ago,,,, all of that to convince me to go along with everything. I didn't take it he was doing ANY of that or any of THIS because he has any concern for me or my feelings, but only to make it easier for HIM.



Yes, DSS kows that OW is OW. I have told him flat out that this R that his Dad has with OW is not right. That despite his Dad's ACTIONS right now, I still Love him and want us to be a family. That we all can Love WH despite his actions right now.

I haven't clued him in on any Plan. Despite his denials, I know that WH drills DSS with questions. Even if they are questions about what questions I am asking! I don't want to potentially give anything away or put DSS in the middle any more than he already is due to pur circumstance.

Thanks for the insights!

Believe me, I know how hard this can be.
Only because I've been in those shoes....now I look back and think how absolutely RIDICULOUS my thinking was.

He is not proud of what he's doing. Hence the fact that he's not talking openly about it to anyone.

With you, he's letting it out in little drips and drabs.

Here's how I was:
Its like going down a steep steep canyon. OP expects you to get to the bottom with them.
But GOD ITS SCARY! And you are not sure you want to go there!
So mostly you keep hiding and lying. That keeps you on that little plateau.
With more pressure from OP, you might take another step forward -- like admitting something to BS.
You aren't upfront about anything, but maybe you'll admit something you get caught at (very much like OW on the camping trip)
That feels like a big step down the canyon.
You know you're getting further and further away from BS and the life you had, which is at the top of the canyon.
So by not telling the BS the truth -- it lets the WS stay at the plateau they are on. Part way between both worlds.

And your WH is right now feeling enormous relief that you know about the camping trip. In his warped mind, he has twisted getting caught with being honest! Now he's feeling comfy on his new plateau.
Now he can talk to you about it. Whereas before he couldn't. And he's got some new BS to feed OW to placate her. To show her he's moving down the canyon.

I LOVE your CANYON analogy, Lexx...Right on TARGET with what I have heard from my WH about the PROCESS..digging himself deeper into the hole....

IN PLAN B, the WS gets THROWN INTO THE CANYON... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />..or into the FIERY PIT....with no options of RELIEF to be provided by the BS...

So towards the end of PLAN B, when my H was asking to reconcile, I threw out a lifeline but in order to get to the top..he had to meet the conditions..WOW...

He has referred to it as..the BREADCRUMBS BACK HOME..like in HANSEL AND GRETEL..

I LOVE that canyone analogy,too, because it really helps me see better where he is.

I think I'd previously envisioned it like a drag strip. WH has laid his course fast & straight on to the Big D. He can't wait to race straight down it, as fast as he can to cross that finish line with OW, having left Bugs back at at the start.

I really never considered a possible plateau AND I had almost given up any thought that perhaps he didn't WANT to go all of the way to the bottom of the canyon with OW.

Lexxxy - - your insights here really do help so much!

As Mimi said - I envision Plan B Tossing him right down to the bottom! I had a mental picture of Bugs standing on the Upper Edge of the Canyone with a big ol'Howitzer blasting a hole right at that plateau. WH flies off, arms flung wide, soaring thru the air straight into what he SAYS he wants so badly.

I DON'T picture a huge SPLAT at the bottom, though! Just that he will be gone from my vision in realm where I can not see. A place I'd NEVER want to go anyway.

The sooner he bottoms out,,,,,the sooner his eyes may open up. He may someday climb back up the side of the canyon into my line of sight. If he does,,, he will find those Hansel & Gretel crumbs, and the lifeline to hold on to which will lead him home.


I was reading some great stuff this morning by Mortarman - this quote from him really speaks to me right now.



Wednesday afternoon my conversation with God was of my letting go and Letting HIM. Giving every ounce of TRUST in HIS way, HIS time and KNOWING that by doing that He would Provide.

Obviously, He did in regards to the immediate situation.

I KNOW He will do the same in the long term. I have to keep my eyes and heart focused on Him.

You all here help me so much on this path,,, Thank you!

Wow, this is great. I get it now that I was just climbing right down there with my FWH little by little with every drama. The guys in Plan B get to stay WAY up there and don't even have to SEE WS down there at the bottom.

Bugs, I promise you. God hears your heart. Do you think the story I told about praying for my FWH to be broken was a coincidence or confirmation from God to you that He is listening. Hmmmm?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

BS's always wonder "why can't they just tell the truth".....

Because each "truth" that you tell sends you further down the slope. And they are not sure they want to go there yet.

There's still a rope attached to the top and back to the BS.

Plan B severs the rope.

AH..you met MORTARMAN..MY PLAN B COACH..he stayed right there with me DAILY....

Here's just a couple of my favorite verses that helped me make it through the STORM...

To this day I have this one on a plaque on my dresser:

"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart and lean not on thine own understanding; in all thy ways acknowledge HIM and HE will direct your paths." (Proverbs 3:5-6)


.."be strong in the LORD, and in the power of HIS might. Put on the armour of GOD, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against the ruler of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of GOD, that ye may be able to withstand the evil day, and HAVING DONE ALL, to STAND." (Ephesians 6:10-12)

Bugs:

I have to go with Lexxy's Analogy. I stood on that precipice. On that Plataeu. Waiting to get blown off or blown up.

I tried to step up higher a couple of times to put some distance between me and the canyon bottom and get closer to Mrs LG. Didn't work. The pull of the plataeu was too strong, and the addiction was there. Also, When OW would sense the pulling away, she would threaten to tell everybody, so, I just went back.

I know. Chicken.

Then one day, Mrs LG discovered this website. And here we are. Put back together. It ain't perfect, but it's much better than anything else WE ever had. And OW did call my W.

OW thought by blowing me off the plateau, I would fall to the bottom of the canyon. I thought that for many years as well. But because of what WE learned on this Website, Mrs LG threw out the rope and dragged me back up. And I wanted to climb that way.

Are you ready for Plan B?

I don't know.

Do you feel that you have run the effective plan A? That you have shown to WH the new Bugs?

Lexxy mentioned WH as being CONFLICTED. I can sense that as well. He is teetering on the edge. He is balanced towards falling in, but he isn't all there yet.

How about inviting him to the MarriageBuilders Seminar in Orlando on May 18th and 19th?

If you are reading Motarmans Threads, he can tell you what success he and Mrs MM had going to thier MB WE.

It really helps. Read DesireWisdom's thread. Her WH was way gone, and agreed to go, and thier M seems to be working out now.

That gives you one month of Plan A.

With a definate end point. And you can see if WH reacts to the MB principles.

Is it expensive? Alot less expensive than an attorney/divorce/property settlement/etc

Two days of meals: $125.
Two days at the Hotel: $300
Two plane tickets to Orlando? $450.
Two days with the Harleys: $1000.
Saving your marriage? Priceless.

What is the worst thing that could happen?

He says NO?

Yep.

LG

Hey All!

What great posts!!

PM - You & your story were on my mind specifically when I realized my prayer, too, had been answered! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mimi- great scriptures for me to keep close at hand! THx! My sister has quote BOTH of those to me recently!

LG -

I "think" I have been doing a pretty good Plan A. I have shown WH a LOT of different things about the NEW Bugs. The question is HAS HE SEEN IT?

I don't know. Just the other night he was talking about us being "At War" with every conversation. I certainly haven't viewed us as being at WAR. I don't always AGREE with what he wants, but I do not LB or DJ the way I used to.

Old Bugs would not listen, she would simply Lay Down the Law, Map out the Plan and make it happen. Right, wrong, or indifferent, Old Bugs knew Best.

So, it seems he still sees nothing but OLD BUGS. I have said to him more than once recently, "WH, you need to stop making assumptions about me and my actions. " Every time, if we have discussed his assumption, he's had to admit that assumption did not match reality.

So,,,,,,, how EFFECTIVE or GOOD has been my Plan A? Is there any way for a BS to really know?

You & Lexxx mention that he seems CONFLICTED. I appreciate your insights from the other perspective very much. Yet, it is VERY hard for me to see that this is possible from my POV.

IF he is conflicted, I'd say MORE PLAN A makes sense. I DO want to go out with as much POSTIVE as possible. However, the pushing WH has done recently with the papework on it's way and the DD/OW sitch has been inching me to Plan B.

I know my Love Bank reserves are running pretty low, so the time is near.

I would LOVE to do a MB Weekend - I don't care if it would cost me $20,000!

But let me ask you or any FWS this - When you were in the height of your A,,,,,you have told your BS that even if OP was not in the picture your M wouldn't work,,,, would you be open to MB weekend offer??

Would you view it as either the BS being weak/pathetic OR that BS is just trying to make it difficult for you?

Would it really have had any POSTIVE impact?