I think the point of what many are saying is that neither of you should PUT UP with any of this behavior. Burning things, UNHEALTHY. Throwing things, UNHEALTHY.

Imagine, you enter your place of work, and your boss deems some behavior you have unacceptable, he/she then proceeds to take items of importance from your desk and begins to shred/burn them. Is this appropriate behavior? Maybe to some it is, but in general, many people would have their bosses a$$ on a golden platter. This behavior is no more acceptable TO MOST inside the home.

I say that you do what you need to do in order to survive. Many people give in to their captors and even for bonds with them (Stockholm syndrome). It's not a real, loving bond, it is one born out of fear.

Rin, we can only deal with the information you have given us in this forum, we know not what GREATNESS your R has, we know not of how great it has been or will be. Only you know the truth, and not only your truth, but THE truth of your R. I would expect my friends and family to call me out when I suddenly change directions, without a slow turn in the process. Concern is paramount.

Are you angry with MB because things aren't working the way they are SUPPOSED to, or are you making changes to avoid dealing with that? OR are you making changes because you KNOW MB does not work? Or, is this who you H is, and you are willing to accept that? If so, then we must accept that. We don't have to live your life, Rin.

IMVHO it does not give him the right to be a WS.


That is a fair statement and you should not try to do something that doesn't feel right.

Rin if you read way back one of my concerns has been the amount of reading you do and then the attempt to change yourself based on that book.

With every new book or philosophy you came to an epiphiny about you or your sitch.

It is not all you and your problems.


You know rin a lot of what you posted as your issues my FWW had with herself. Possibly part of why she had the A.

I love her and I put up with that garbage and an A. But you know what I am not entiltled to run around until she fixes herself.

On that I will never agree with you.

It doesn't have to be MB principles to break up the A.

Just principles. Unless you are a polygimist most would say your H needs to make a choice. Being married or not being married.

If he doesn't like the M the way it is then he can leave as well.

Frog,

I think this is part of what I'm getting at.

My mom always told me that you can do poorly alone...you don't need anyone else helping...

Here you go...this is where my people pleaser comes in...MB says there must be NC for recovery to exist...I still have C with my OM from time to time...not that I go in search of it...H and Him are still friends...there's no "feeling" anymore...I don't believe that the A is on-going just b/c people talk...if that was the case, then I'm still having the A with OM...

I would like NC, I don't need a letter...

But b/c MB says that this is what I need to do in order to save my M, I did it...now, I consider it being controlling...

Basically putting me in a power struggle...

H didn't ask these things of me...and I DON'T need it...

MB says that I should...I do them...I feel worse...my M is worse...

What's the point? H has stated that she has nothing to offer him...I've heard how he had more of a relationship with her son then her...several of those calls, come to find out was with her son...

Do I think that this will all work out? I most certainly do...

Do I feel that it's wrong for someone to walk in and tell me I'm wrong and try to crush my beliefs...YES, I think it's cruel...to tell me what I'm doing...what I'm thinking...to try to tell me what I'm doing without me saying this is what I'm doing...unacceptable...

I'm not comfortable with it...

but I believe that nothing I say will make you anyone think that I'm doing best what's best for me...

Frog- My S suggested that I stop reading for a while...I did until she gave me my Step two books...can I not apply what I see fit? That's like saying that I'm a hypercondiact(?)...I read about a sickness and I have it...LOL

I also had a hard time calling H, WH...has anyone paid attention to that? Just b/c he's talking to her...I don't think there's an EA now...in the beginning YES, but that well has run dry...the excitement has let the building...

WH did say to me...he had the A b/c he thought that we had an open relationship, well...I'm NOT changing my mind about that boundary, thank you very much... and he's choicing to be with me knowing that will not be the case...

The statement that was referred to about to, the threat, at his B-day party...I've been faced with several opportunities to give in...WH asked me once if we still played around...b/c a couple was interested and I said No, we do not...

He said just asking, then he thought that I got mad at him for asking...

I'm going to have to speak up to another friend of our, b/c he knows we USE TO, he thinks that he can grab me...well, that's going to stop too...

Basically, if my H can't stick with the program of just me and him, I don't need him...I will not degrade myself anymore...

I feel that I have stated that boundary...I'm giving him his diginity and respect and allow him to make the right choices...

I personally feel that he has learned his lesson...he calls himself a dog in front of those who know...or he'll say that he's been in enough trouble last year and doesn't want anymore...

He makes comments about his past behavior that I just started taking note of...he degrades himself...he did it today at lunch in front of a really good friends...D works with him and I called D during exposure b/c I knew it would be a great influence on him...

MY H didn't ask certain things from me in order to recover...his personal recovery...and I don't need him in order to recover...

I believe that people show remorse in different ways...not always the way "WE" need or would like...

I get it Rin, look as long as you are protecting your boundaries of what treatment you will abide by and what type of M you want, then I support that. It sounds like you still follow no third party in our R. However you get to that place is for you to do.

If you really don't need no contact in order to survive, then that is up to you. I guess I would have to ask why your H finds it so necessary to continue talking to someone that he did so much damage to his W with? What does he get out of this R that he can't get at home? Why doesn't he tell you what he needs from you? OR Why don't you ask him what he needs from YOU? No fight in that, just a question...

I'm really hearing what you are saying. I'm just worried, outside of what MB principles are, that you are settling due to your own issues, not WH's.

Rin,


So let me ask you a question if you told your H back then to keep seeing OW just no more EA or PA part how do you think that would have turned out? You can be her friend but no SF?

The power struggle was you saying you wanted monogomy?
Would he have seen her as used up if your controlling demand of NC didn't expose her warts?


Then why did he try to hide it. In a truly open relationship the partner knows about the OP.


Rin I am not an expert. I can just see sometimes people read something and misinterpret it or try to change too much. I think what you think is probably true but knowing there is a problem is just the start. I recognize my weakness' but I needed help dealing with them. A book just wasn't enough.

Rin he makes comments about his past behavior. Which part.

Finally I am truly saddened about his R with the OW's son. I know part of what you talked about here is his treatment of your kids. Yet he has the time and effor to be a father figure to the OW's S.

I wish you the best. I really do. It seems as though you have decided that this isn't a good path for you.

I understand. You can go in the direction that is best for you. I know there is more then one way to skin a cat.

Hey Frog,

Life hands me vodka...

Problem is, I have a tendency to go overboard with it, so a bit of lemonade would be good, mate!

Now, I feel better...a little more relaxed...

First, let me say this...outside of the conversation...

I've been having L with me for the past two days at work b/c the sitter went in the hospital with heart failure...she's out, doing better we think, she goes back for testing Friday...if everything is okay...L starts back Monday...

F called me at work a few minutes ago...he's not feeling well...asthma attack due to a cold...so I'm home now...I called H so let him know what was going on and he offered to stop at the store and pick up for meds for F...

Since I was home I our loan company and let them know that we will be calling in payment on everything in a week or two to get current...at least there's alight at the end of the tunnel...

Oh, H stayed home Monday and cared for L and F, when he got off the bus...we had made arrangment with someone else to care for the kids but three of the five kids there started running fevers and the other household someone has the flu...

So, with all the stress, I feel better right now...

I said power struggle b/c I know that H has his own issues...unrelated to me which puts me in the light of being the one he sees in control...his reality...as sad as it is, he contented the phone calls b/c he knew I was checking the cell...he asked me not too...I said I wouldn't stop...he did it anyway...horrible...child like, right? His issues...

So, I back off he stops...I told him that he was going to have to call and get me off his account...he hasn't...his stuff, not mine...until then, I have access...

BTW, I called OW, using my open invitation to let her know how we were doing...she was at work...Now, I know that she "STILL" has two jobs...good to know...I just said that H was still choicing to ruin his M and hung up...

Personally, I believe that H sees her as a mother figure...strange but, before things got bad, I talked to her and she said that H would say things to her and she kept telling him to talk to me...she asked if he did and I said no...it was a good conversation...

H's relationship with OW's Son is more of a friend...he plays football in HS and H was great in football himself...OW's son would ask for tips and they REALLY talked alot during football season...

What better way to make H feel good about himself...this kid made the paper and I believe in some way H thinks that he's contributed to that...H broke his shoulder in three places during a game and continued to play in that game and in the next before he knew it was broke...the coach didn't believe that he was hurt...blah, blah, blah...H had to transfer schools because of the trouble and it ended his football career...from what I understand he was being looked at for several colleges...

Can you see where his needs were being filled? H would go to OW's apt. and watch game tapes with her S, talk about the plays, etc...now, our kids aren't to that point in their lives...A with OW was something that just happened in the process...

I would call H sometimes and he would tell me "oh, I'm at with my GF...I thought he was joking...according to him he never tried to hide it." He knew that I would look at the cell bill...

H has stated that he can handle being with only me...it's been a long struggle...we're not talking the last year...I'm talking the last three or four to get to this point...We're doing great compared to where we were...

SL, H use to tell me what he needed and sometimes still does but I was so wrapped up in my own anger, resentment, bitterness and trying to get back at him in my own ways that I just didn't listen or didn't want too...I was the one that wanted to run from my everything...overwhelmed easily...panic attacks...

I think that I made it so unsafe for him for so long that I have to work my way back to the point that he feels comfortable talking to me again...for that matter I have to also...

It's funny...H use to live next to my BF in college and even if I hadn't seen him in a while I got a feel like something was wrong...one time I hadn't seen him in about a week and I left a note on the door saying that I hoped he felt better...come to find out he had the flu and was locked up in his room...when my BF and I broke up, he asked my XBF permission to date me a week before I got back from summer break...

The fact that he asked permission still amazes me...H knew he wanted to be with me before I even knew he was alive...before BF and I started dating...at orination...He taught me to drive, helped me get my license, cosigned for my first car (bad dicussion on his part at the time come to think about it, we were just dating...)LOL...I could go on...

Frog- about his A, but doesn't say it where everyone else knows what he's talking about...it's like secret code to me...like he picks his moments to say these things b/c he can't just come out and tell me...he really puts himself down...calling himself a dog...I've mentioned the [censored]...just comments here and there...

The wierd part...since I told him that I was surrending and dropping the "rules", he's been better...like last night...I went to my meeting and he had TMed me twice...I got one but didn't look at my phone b/c that one hour is my time, not anyone else's...I was "running" the meeting and when we got out, I forgot about the TM and came straight home...

H confronted me...why you didn't check your phone, blah, blah...then, he dropped why I didn't call, said that's not the point and got to it...it was simply and solved without anyone leaving the house...

THe WOW part...instead of continuing to kick the horse...he stopped and we were able to have a good night...past behavior, it would have continued and we would have had a bad night...probably saying some bad things, getting into some old stuff...but it just ended...

IMHO, his father was a horrible role model and his mother babied him...he's got his own lessons...I just believe that if we stick it will workout...just my opinion...my POV...

Don't you know ACA's are often more loyal than others...LOL

Hope I answered all those questions....

Rin,

I think certain people can accept thing others can't.

As you know I am an ACA. So yes we are more loyal then others. However becoming a healthy ACA means to be loyal to those who diserve it.

I got lucky my M is thriving today. I love my FWW.

I love my M. Most importantly I have self respect.

I can let the world into my home and let them watch everything we both do and they would see an H and a W that respect each other. They POJA on issues they didn't before. They are a united front to the children. They talk to each other about their day. They kiss first thing in the morning with stinky breath.

They fight sometimes then say I am sorry. It happened this morning as a matter of fact.

That is the only thing I could accept as an H. That life.

I don't need the FWW to make me happy or make me whole. I can do that on my own. I wanted her in my life if she could be a source of happiness not unhappiness.

Like SL said I can do poorly on my own.

SL I bring the vodka to the party too.

You did answer my questions. It sounds more like you are doing a Plan A, where many restrictions will not work with a WS. It sounds like you two got buried under the details of recovery and life and forgot to have fun together, without the kids.

I think you have caught on to not being able to control anyone but you. There's a great thread running about boundaries/ vs. manipulation. I've learned a lot in just the past two days reading and posting. 'Rules' don't work in a R with a grown-up, but boundaries do. You state that you have an issue with some sort of treatment or behavior, and how it makes you feel. No expectation. Next time the behavior occurs you state how you will enforce the boundary, if/then....when it continues, you protect yourself with enforcement. That's what I get from the thread.

I think it was Ark who stated that she and her H used to both smoke. Then she conceived and they quit. Her H has stated, just matter of fact like, that he wouldn't be able to live with someone who smoked, and would probably move out of a household if his mate began to smoke. HIS boundary, but Ark said, her decision based on his boundary is not to smoke, because she wants to be with her H.

I say this because a boundary of NC with any OW is that, and must be enforced with whatever you need to defend yourself, whether that be you leaving, or not talking to WH, or whatever...enforcement is not about punishing anyone, it is about protecting YOUR well-being...

Frog- to be honest, I think that I'm headed in the same direction...a heathly M... it just may take a little longer...we are healthier today than last month...a few bandages left...

Given my experience with my A's, boredom sets in...OP is loses their appeal...I firmly belive that OW lost her a long time ago but he kept contact up because of me...the power struggle...in his mind, I wasn't going to tell him who he could talk to and who he couldn't...

There's that child...

Today...I have an H that is interacting with us...being loving...thoughtful...

IMO, change is going to happen where we want it to or not...H has no chose in that matter...I see him changing...for the better...but he doesn't see it...

SL- That's what H called it "Rules"...I didn't know what a boundary was...much less a healthy one...

Given our history do you think that H know what a boundary is...IMO, I don't think so...

I can't bring myself to read the thread to be honest...I was amazed to learn that they can be removed or changed or whatever we need...

Last night, I talked about creating boundaries for my own behavior...what I will and will not accept from myself any longer...looking back my behavior was soooo unacceptable, in so many ways...

Buried...yes, I agree b/c I kept my pain at the forefront...what should have been a good plan A...I don't think was...one day, we got into it and that was the day that I lost it and started hitting him...I pulled out my favorite knife and went to cutting on my arm...talk about old behaviors coming to surface...I hadn't done that in seven/eight years?

H got the knife afterward and brought it outside...cut it to pieces with the Recepiating saw...

It's unacceptable behavior for H and for me...I crossed the line...when I got here...LA asked me how I felt...do you know I had to go find a list of feeling and the words we use to figure out how I felt...

I really wonder how I have functioned all these years...

I think slowing down will be good for the both of you, begin at the beginning, don't try to jump to RECOVERED. Start at doing the recovery thing. As I've heard, it is TOUGH going sometimes.

History cannot be changed, so given your HISTORY, no I dont' think your WH will understand a boundary. But you aren't living in the history of your M, you are working on recovery of a NEW M, NEW dynamic....there is no such thing as going backwards, there is only backward behavior.

Oh, Rin, honey, no more cutting...no more (eyes welling right now, I know where you come from). You are a worthy, beautiful human being, who IS loved by many. When you even see a knife picture running it across the arms of the ones you love, it may help to put into perspective what you do to them by doing to yourself.

Take your time here, Rin. Read the boundaries thread little by little. You may find that you have already enforced boundaries SUCCESSFULLY without fully understanding...

NO MORE DRAMA. STOP THAT! Both you and your WH need to find peace. Work on spending time alone, together, no R talk, just enjoyable things you agree upon. Go back to the basics. Don't get so caught up and worrisome over behavior. Let the river flow, don't try to change it's course, learn how to survive in it's torrent...

SL- LOl, sweetie, we've come a long way...no more drama...that's the whole point int he surrender to win for me...

I'm not settling for less than I deserve...perhaps our M started in a deeper valley than most couples...we're fighting a good fight...

H and I just talked about whether he should go back nights...he's been presented with the opportunity of not only going nights but if he accepts and we agreed that he would...he will be running a crew...

He asked what I thought and I asked what he thought...we weighted the options and decided that it's in our best interest but understand that the road will be rough...

I was thinking that I'm being presented with this situation again because there had to be a lesson in there somewhere that I failed to learn the first time...

I wil be home tomorrow...F's running a fever of 103...viruel (?)...same thing as the HN's kids, we're thinking...F and one of her kids are in the same class together and HN brought her three kids to the dr. today...

So, I'm going in for an hour and then coming home...

This night thing is going to stop me from going to my meetings...you know maybe it's not my lesson that needs to be learned...it could be H's...

Well, it's all about attitude...

Rin,

I think SL hit it pretty much on the head.

My only real advice is to stay the course. Whatever you have decided to do you need to do it long enough for it to become a habit.

That was my point about you reading all of the books. I think in many cases you saw something that made sense and tried it. I don't know that you stayed the course long enough on some of them to see if it really worked.

So if this is your choice stick with it. Stay the course and see if it works to make you happy.

Good to hear you Rin.

Maybe nights will give you both a chance to take things at a slower pace. It will be familiar, too. You both know the drill. It may give your H time, during the day, to find his way through this, too. It may, also, give your H more of a sense of leadership, at work, and that may follow through at home...

Keep posting, we're here, don't you go away.

Rin....keep it up!

You have found a solution. It takes time, but you know this is going to work for YOU and your children no matter the result.

Stay strong.

HI guys, thanks for posting...

I've been folding clothes and working on the house at day today...in my PJs... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I felt a little lonely today...like I needed some grown up company...it's funny how I can identify that empty feeling now...I called H and talked to him at lunch...just to talk...

We're trying to get our finances right...have some good goals to get there...our altimate goal is to purchase a camper...I've said that I'm all for the camper but I do have fears and we talked about that...

Things have settled down in the past few weeks and that makes me peaceful...it's like coming together...I am surprised at his attitude about wanting to accept this opportunity to run the crew...

I mean he has accepted leadership position before running crews but it's different this time...he said look at so and so after he ran a crew by himself...it's almost like he's renewed...we will see...he'll be on a for maybe three or four months...

Frog- I got you this time...I'm doing this and I have faith that all will turn out well!

SL- I hope so...we decided that F will not be returning to the sitter's...with H working nights, F can get on and off the bus here...that's a plus...

I am concerned about him working nights...same fears popping up...I just have to remember that this is a new day and age...our anniversary won't be any good, being he's working nights...oh, well...

DF-I feel good about it...I am concerned about not being able to go to meeting once he starts nights...I'd like to work that out...

Thanks for the support...I appreciate it... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />