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Wow!

dg, sorry I missed your previous posts, but my days of posting are nearly done. Here's my take on your sitch...filing and obtaining a divorce has a real sense of finality, and sometimes will "jar" a WS out of the fog. Sometimes permanently, sometimes temporarily. The trick is how to distinguish the difference.

Words from her at this point in time still mean NOTHING. She is still at least partially in WS mode, meaning the truth, to her, is of no consequence. She will still be able to be coy and sexy in one instant, and totally self-centered and Wayward in the next.

So, what to do next? Test her a bit. Ask her if she really meant what she said the other night. Then ask her what SHE plans to do about it, ie; will she write a NC letter and leave her job so No Contact will be a certainty?

Your answer will lie in her response.

Thank you for your kind words in the post up above. It has been a real pleasure watching you grow as a human being, and as a man. You were reluctant at first, and after trying some unorthodox plans of your own devising, realized that perhaps a tried and true plan might be a better approach. You've done well, and you should be proud of all you've done.

I will keep an eye out for further posts, and again, I'm sorry I didn't catch these latest ones until now.

Best wishes,
SD


BH - me 53, ONS 1979
FWW - 51, 2 EA's, 1 PA
Last D-Day, Sep. 30, 2003
Last Contact/recovery began 2-26-04

***You can do anything with time and money...but remember...money won't buy you time!***
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footnote:

You might get something out of the thread "Larry's Plan for Men", posted by Believer. It's about a man's self-respect and how to employ it under these affair-related circumstances.

Hope there's something there for you...


BH - me 53, ONS 1979
FWW - 51, 2 EA's, 1 PA
Last D-Day, Sep. 30, 2003
Last Contact/recovery began 2-26-04

***You can do anything with time and money...but remember...money won't buy you time!***
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This is a very dangerous time. You c/b lulled and fooled into selling your soul to the mothership.

Be careful. Continue to let her show you (talk is cheap), that she wants her FAMILY back and you have every right to be cautious. If she asks you to just overlook things...take that as a red flag.

Let her meet your needs and you THINK about meeting hers. Yep, that's right give it thought B4 you give it action.

Can you call Jennifer? You need a plan or you w/b manipulated.

Here's a piece of advice: False recovery sucks! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

L.

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SD and Orchid - Thanks again for looking in on me, I fell hook line and sinker and am hurting again. I don't know whether to call it a false recovery or a blip on the radar.

Yesterday was tough, Called W to see if she wanted to have lunch, She said she was picking D11 up from school b/c she was sick, Found out later D stayed home all day and W was going home when I called.

I left work early and thought we could talk some more, W was very different than the night before and although there was a ton of emotion from her and crying - She didn't take back that she still loves me and other things she said but she has changed course again saying if I loved her I would give her the S to find herself.

I said to her that I was coming to grips w/ things recently but after Mon. night I couldn't do that, I am feeling very hurt all over again. Mon night W said she was tired of hating me and realized she still loved me - Tues she said she wasn't taking back those comments but wanted to know if it was her loving me or her not wanting to hurt me.

I said by doing what she did the hurt was there more than before, She blamed things on being emotional due to it being that time of the month, At one point I did say that she had gone through that at least 6 times since this all began and when I asked her Mon night how long she was thinking about saying she made a mistake - She replied since last Thurs, Which was before her "visit"

Was I wrong to tell her how much I felt hurt? I told her that at first I was trying to avoid things when kids asked about Mom going to dinner, Hiding when she walked in the house to see if she bow out gracefully.

Even after her saying to me what would I say if she said she thought she made a mistake? I tried to keep conversation light at dinner and tried not making eye contact or get to lost in things, When we got home and talked I felt somewhat comfortable and put myself out there and now I am feelinghurt and used.

We talked for hours yesterday but she became stubborn again, Although there was a lot of emotion and tears spilled by her.

I don't know what to do or think, There are so many other side issues besides just her and I and I do not care what other people (family) think - I realized all over again how much I love and care for her and our family and am feeling really violated and hurt.

I really tried to validate her feelings, Apologize ahead of time if I thought I was saying anything that could be mosconstrued as a DJ - Tried not to LB at all and felt successful in that dept.

Can this be the beginning of the "fog" lifting or just a phase?

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dg, I can hardly think about those days without returning to the same pain you are experiencing. And it went on for 6 months before my WW finally "broke".

Did you find the thread I referenced? If so, was it of any value to you?

I am reluctant to give you any specific direction regarding what you are going through, because the dynamics are difference in each case.

The thread on setting, stating, and adhereing to your boundaries, I thought, was something you should consider.

Did you ask her about a NC letter, or leaving her job?

Best wishes,
SD


BH - me 53, ONS 1979
FWW - 51, 2 EA's, 1 PA
Last D-Day, Sep. 30, 2003
Last Contact/recovery began 2-26-04

***You can do anything with time and money...but remember...money won't buy you time!***
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I did read it, But felt w/ the way my W had brought up my "controlling" issues that I really couldn't use that to my advantage right now.

It's just a feeling I had the other night, It really was different - It was like pre A - The way she looked at me, the things she said, the way she said them but most of all the way she kissed me. I don't know if that sounds silly or not - There were a few times during the last few months where she kissed me, But not like this.

The job is as stressful as ever for her and she said she put an app in somewhere else, As far as NC she still will not admit to the EA - I am 90% sure it is/wasn't physical.

With the way things got to in Jan. I haven't had much leverage b/c of things that occurred that I should have had better control of - But I have made sure that she hasn't had much free time w/o the kids after work or on weekends.

I try to work as much overtime as I can, Spend time w/ family and friends - Not shirking my father role but not being a doormat like I was.

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I feel so confused with all this, W sought me out on monday and said all those things and looked genuinely happy to be with me and us as a family. Said she loved me and that I was the only man she would ever love, kissed me passionately and said I didnt have to sleep downstairs.

I felt I asked certain things to try and feel things out but feel so stupid now maybe I accepted too fast or felt if I didnt respond then she would not attempt again.

Tues was ok, She didn't deny her feelings ot what she said but felt she may have been so emotional b/c of her monthly visit. There were tears and emotions all over the place but by the end of the 3 hr conversation she was saying if I loved her I would let her go to find herself and see if it was her really feeling the love or if she was just tired of being angry and/or feeling badly because she was hurting me.

The last 2 days she is back to the cold, distant person who could care less if she talks to me, seems to look right through me etc.

I wrote her a long letter yesterday explaining that I could not sign a S and that I knew what I felt and saw from here on Mon was real - Nobody could fake that - It was my W and not an alien.

Expressed how much courage it took her to retain an atty but also of the courage it took her to say to me what I would think if she said she made a mistake.

Tues when we talked she said she was a little upset at spending money on a MSA especially after I told her that with all that transpired Mon that the atty I saw said I don't have to disclose any info and she said she couldn't afford a D.

I feel I have to stay and can't file myself, Or separate but am I punishing myself? Am I acting needy all over again with expressing my love?

I said to her that I was coming to grips with a S before she came to me and said and did those things but now I can't.

Could it be she had a moment of being out of the "fog" or maybe if the EA is still active that they had an argument and I was the rebound saftey net?

I mean I have brought many issues to our R/M and have still screwed up a few times since Jan but I have said that she and my kids are the most important things in my life and I would do almost anything to make her feel safe in coming back.

Personally I feel I should stick it out but at what point does someone give up? Or instead of waiting for her to drop the bomb of D - Do I give up my kids and file for D hoping to shake her into reality.

Filing for D would almost guarantee that she would get custody b/c of DWI's one last Feb and another in 1999, Along with the police report she filed on Jan 5th or 6th of this year b/c of my stupidity.

I had gotten past the pain since late Jan and was moving forward but now the pain is back - It's like Lucy and Charlie Brown when Lucy would hold the football and pull it away at the last min and he kept falling for it.

If any FWW's could give me insight I would really appreciate it, By kissing me so passionately and saying she loved me and saying that I would be the only man she ever loves.
Could she just be trying to shake me up to get me to do something stupid? Or is she most probably serious but trapped between her feelings for me and the OM?

I am not sure if it is still active but NC has never been established and she never admitted to it - Still says it was just friends but I can't believe that.

I am so confused, I cant confide in anyone my family had issues w/ her b/f all this and it has only gotten worse.

Had allies w/ her family and the church she attends until early Jan and no contact w/ anyone and she says she won't talk to her family about our situation and says that they all would still like to see this work out.

Somebody please give me insight,MB 2x4 or opinions on how they would go about things.

Thanks Everyone

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dg, I think you should delete this from this post, and start a new thread. I think there are so many active threads, and this poll is buried way deep in this one, I fear you won't get the responses you like to see.

Summarize, or copy paste your last 2-3 posts to preface the poll.

Just a thought

Last edited by shattered dreams; 03/29/07 06:32 PM.

BH - me 53, ONS 1979
FWW - 51, 2 EA's, 1 PA
Last D-Day, Sep. 30, 2003
Last Contact/recovery began 2-26-04

***You can do anything with time and money...but remember...money won't buy you time!***
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DG,

R U dizzy yet? That rollercoaster of emotions she has you on is taking you on a wild ride. See you can't even put faith in the good stuff she says.

"Realize that she is not dependable on her emotions and you need to learn NOT to rely on them." That is what YOU need to tell her.

Don't make like changing plans in an emotional state.

Finish up your plan a, identify your personal and the M boundaries, secure your finances, child custody and secure your support group (put them on ready status <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ) and implement your boundaries. That gets you ready for plan B which sad to say is often required.

L.

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Orchid,
My support group would be minimal, My family and W have had a difficult time getting along in the past and now with all that has transpired they all wish it was over.

I know I don't and that I still lover her, Especially after the other night - I mean that peek out of her fog made me feel that she is still in there somewhere. Even Tues when she was backtracking a bit the tears and emotions she showed kind of gave me hope that she is so torn and broken.

I also know this all hasn't been easy for her either, W is a very petite woman 5'4 and at her heaviest 120# but she has lost so much weight - She is down to 95#.

Last night we had a short conversation after I got off here and her reasoning for a S, Was to see if she wants to stay for the right reasons not just for the kids or financial.

But I fear that she may move to file for D b/c she may feel trapped that I won't respond to her atty's request for net worth statment. The atty I saw said I don't have to give anything.

I struggle with things but I feel that if she truly wanted a break she would have gone straight to D, This gives me hope and even though I struggle emotionally if I wait this out it could help. I don't want to abandon her or the kids even though for the last several months she has abandoned me.

I'm thinking the more I fight S or D the more chance I have of getting my M back - Even so far as to contest D to make it expensive for her but at what cost emotionally to me.

Iknow it says that Plan B's have to be done sometimes, But as I said the things that I contributed to in the downfall make it hard for me to sit on a pedestal and judge her, Although her "friendship" took away the person she was and it is hard sometimes to deal with the alien.

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My support group would be minimal, My family and W have had a difficult time getting along in the past and now with all that has transpired they all wish it was over.

I know I don't and that I still lover her, Especially after the other night - I mean that peek out of her fog made me feel that she is still in there somewhere. Even Tues when she was backtracking a bit the tears and emotions she showed kind of gave me hope that she is so torn and broken.

Orchid: You can work on increasing and improving you support group. It is NOT just made of people. Not just relatives.

Neighbors, co-workers, doctors, dentist, therapists, pastor, utility companies, IRS, kids, pets, songs, strangers in a store on the street,animate and inanimate things,etc....... whoever or whatever it takes to keep you sane, balanced and moving forward.

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I also know this all hasn't been easy for her either, W is a very petite woman 5'4 and at her heaviest 120# but she has lost so much weight - She is down to 95#.

Orchid: She is a Ws. They are not meant to be happy. Don't feel sorry for her choices.

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Last night we had a short conversation after I got off here and her reasoning for a S, Was to see if she wants to stay for the right reasons not just for the kids or financial.

But I fear that she may move to file for D b/c she may feel trapped that I won't respond to her atty's request for net worth statment. The atty I saw said I don't have to give anything.

Orchid: It shouldn't be her choice to stay or go. That's for you to decide. She shouldn't be allowed to keep the house and her needs as a WS should NOT be counted. Make sure you can tell the difference.

She is trapped but that is her choice.

Don't get suckered into her making YOU feel guilty for HER choices.

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I struggle with things but I feel that if she truly wanted a break she would have gone straight to D, This gives me hope and even though I struggle emotionally if I wait this out it could help. I don't want to abandon her or the kids even though for the last several months she has abandoned me.

Orchid: Don't try to find reason with a WS. They are illogical and primary mission is to destroy the BS and family. Do NOT let her get near her evil goal.

Quote
I'm thinking the more I fight S or D the more chance I have of getting my M back - Even so far as to contest D to make it expensive for her but at what cost emotionally to me.

Iknow it says that Plan B's have to be done sometimes, But as I said the things that I contributed to in the downfall make it hard for me to sit on a pedestal and judge her, Although her "friendship" took away the person she was and it is hard sometimes to deal with the alien.

Orchid:No do NOT fight with a WS. That's like spitting in the wind. Plan wisely. Conserve your energy and do not foolishly engage with a WS unless absolutely necessary.

The one thing a WS wants is control of the BS. The more you pull back the more she will wonder what you are up to and that is where you want her t/b....wondering what you are up to. The more insane you can drive the WS, the sooner the WS will give up. Take away their toys, reason t/b a WS, then they will stop but it takes time and patience.

So pray for a clear mind, calm heart and lots of patience.

Call Jennifer C for a plan.

L.

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Orchid: Thanks so much for what you say, This weekend has been hard and I let her see me too emotionally connected and hurt.

W keeps bringing up everything I ever did and says that if I truly loved her that I would let her go, She keeps saying that it is just further evidence of control. Stupid me keeps trying to educate her which is just making her dig in hr feet.

I am staying and I told her that I would make it as hard as I can to S or D - Said I would contest the D even if I lost b/c everything is worth fighting for - Giving up is for people who dont give a damn.

We are both quite shy people or don't choose to let many in so again my support group consists of a very few individuals but the ones I have have been there.

She said that I know she can't afford a divorce and in giving her a S would show her that I care for her. Saying that I am only thinking of myself in trying to stay that its my control.

I replied by saying I am sorry if this sounds wrong but I feel that by me giving a S only benefits one person (her) by me fighting for the M benefits all of us.

She still admits feelings for me, But says she can't love unconditionally like she has - Trust on both of our sides also have taken a hit.

I still said we should just take it daily no great expectations, She has reluctantly agreed to see a MC of my chossing but what good would it do if she is not trying to save this. She said she would be open to talking with the Harleys so I guess that would give me some hope.

I even asked her to come to this site, Obviously she may be able to find my posts but I thought there were many other situations in other catergories that she could see that there are others who have been to the brink and found their way back.

I don't know if her emotions and tears are b/c she feels I making things difficult or if she is feeling guilty.

Also asked her how badly she wanted the S or D - I said if it is truly for her to allow me 50/50 custody of our children, no CS if it was truly for her.

Also suggested if it was time away to find one apartment that we could both go back and forth between and share 50/50 time w/ the chidren and keep our house.

She wants to get rid of the house, have joint custody of the kids bu residing with her, Even asked to see what the kids thought of her saying Mommy wants time away from Dad.

I thought that wasn;t a good idea to put them through that, Asked what if they said No - Would that make her work on this?

She said this morning that she wants to find out that she would stay b/c she isn't dependent on me, Really then if that was the case that it was all about her she should or would be willing to share our children and to really make it on her own but by wanting the majority of the time w/ them only says to me that she does need something from me and that being the comfort of me picking up the difference monetarily.

I don;t know I wish I had a crystal ball, It is hard to keep loving someone so much when they are prurposely trying to drive you away.

I have picked up all the books I read and am starting to reread them. And again I did try to educate her again by showing her something in the Divorce Remedy by Michelle Weiner Davis about the "Walkout Wife Syndrome"

Especially the part of how when a husband is finally faced with the reality that the determination to change and rebuild is so great.

I hope I am doing the right thing with all this, She said b/f she walked away this morning that we will just stay in this existence for the kids.

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If I were you, I would do some serious snooping. I believe there is still an affair, and your wife is being nice to get you to agree to an easy separation.

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I think that alot also, Although I have made it more difficult on myself to snoop but also on W as I have been working on Saturdays alot lately and Sundays she has been home.

The only possibility for her to have time is during the workweek and during working hours. I know they work in the same building but not in the same depts. and being that it is a manufacturing plant could be hard for them.

Wondering myself if it's more of NC that is causing her to vacillate between things - Even though they may not be active the NC is hard to establish - He works 4:30am - 3:30pm

W works 8:00am - 5:30pm but I got a surprise during our limited conversations that W has applied for another job w/ another company and I am keeping my fingers crossed and hoping this is what we need and that we can hang on til something breaks.

I try to snoop as much as I can, Although she feels so much that I invade her "privacy" especially since I found the S agreement she had drawn up and she found out. Cannot access her cell phone as it's in her name only, she doesn't use the pc at home anymore.

Short of hiring a PI there isn;t alot I can do and the times I check to make sure she is at work she is so I am not sure how much a PI would pick up and that I may just be throwing money around.

I am going to call the Harleys and see if my W will still talk w/ him, I might need 2 sessions one for me to give all the details honestly and one for both of us to speak with him together.

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She said that I know she can't afford a divorce ....


Please tell me exactly how a legal separation, is cheaper than a divorce?

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I really wouldn't know, I don't know what she spent already, But there are filing fees which equal a few hundred dollars and retainer fee etc.

I think her atty had a cheap flat fee for LS like 500.00 or something, But I also asked W if he explained to her that I was under no obligation to respond which is why she was angry. A month or so ago, I did say something about using a mediator and she was agreeable but after a few days I said in good conscience that I could not give her a S.

She should have known b/f she went to him that I couldn't just give in, And after her revelations a week ago today that she thought she made a mistake, she still loved me etc that it would really throw a wrench into all this.

The only other things I can think of is is I were to contest the D that we would have to pay the costs of an appraiser for the house, I would imagine costs associated w/ law guardian (atty) for the children.

She brought it up I didn't and the atty she hired is not just a family law atty he does everything. The atty. I consulted only practices family law - She told me that W's atty is basically an idiot.

I cannot be sure what her thought process is, As I have said I know Plan B's very often have to be done but I guess b/c of the things I brought to the M - I have to do an extended Plan A - Although that is really hard b/c still screw up from time to time and she sees some things as controlling.

I also want to believe on some level that she really is just asking for a S to see where he head is at and that the longer and harder I work to save this I can wait things out.

Also she has to know that the children would not want their whole lives uprooted and if she did move towards a D we would be forced to sell the house and that is also an issue b/c we refinanced 2 1/2 yrs ago and the market went down as well as the appraisal was set up by the mortgage co. and we pretty much knew we were going to be approved and they were very generous. Which allowed some monthly flexibilty but only as it pertains to a married couple w/ common goals.

I am still holding out that her epihany last Mon was really something and that she will start to peek out more frequently from the fog. Every chance I get whether she is around or not to really focus on my children loving them as much as I can, Being strict but loving, Making them feel safe etc and along with showing her that I can and want to put all 3 of them first mine and our lives.

As I said here and to W it was really strange that after several months of her ambushing most of my efforts that when I finally started to think that all was lost especially after her retaining and drawing up a SA that she would come to me and say all that - It's too much to comprehend.

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dg, you can purchase a voice activated recorder at Radio Shack, which can be hidden in the home, and you can record all calls made to and from your land lines.

If you consider this, it MUST be well hidden and you must have all the settings checked and double checked so it doesn't make noise and give itself away. This is questionable from a legal standpoint, but it's what I used to get all the evidence I needed to prove the A existed, and it gave away the OM, plus I found out about ANOTHER OM who had pursued my W for 25 years, with whom she'd had an ongoing EA.

Beautiful devices, IMHO.


BH - me 53, ONS 1979
FWW - 51, 2 EA's, 1 PA
Last D-Day, Sep. 30, 2003
Last Contact/recovery began 2-26-04

***You can do anything with time and money...but remember...money won't buy you time!***
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SD, Thanks I had thought of it but W does not use the home phone @ all, Keylogger for pc was an option but she doesn't get on @ home either. Like I said the only thing I can do would be to hire a PI but as I said she is not away like a WW would be and lately when she is one or both of the kids are with her.

I am feeling really stupid for falling for what she said 2 mondays ago, I knew it was from her heart at least I felt it was, But now I feel like I ate up the crumbs so quickly that she brought me back to the place I thought I was leaving behind.

I have been reading some of Techie's new thread and realize that maybe I am obsessing about things, Although she retained an atty we are still living in the same house but I find myself looking for scraps just as I had a few months ago which can't be good.

I read about the control issues he described and mine were far worse along with as someone else had put it my "nuclear" LB's.

The perception of my W and the IC were that of emotional/verbal abuse and after doing some research I definitely concur, I can understand her feeling like things would revert if she committed but I know they can't and asked what it would take short of a S or D to ensure her being comfortable trying to work on things.

She keeps saying if I cared and loved her that I would give her the S so that she would know she is staying for the right reasons, Which seems like a contradiction to me b/c if she was staying she wouldn't want to leave?

Also she says it's not about money or anything else that it was truly about her finding out what she wants and needs, I did offer her 2 scenarios - One would be giving a S but each of us having 50/50 custody no CS, That way I wouldn't be missing my kids and if it ia as she says about her then why does she want tie kids other than having a safety net w/ CS.

The second was that we both find an apt. together in the area and our children remain in the house with us switching the times we are the one staying in the house.

She wasn't up for either, She seemed open to seeing a MC but my fear is she wants to paint me as a control freak, and someone with verbal/emotional abuse issues in order for them to say I should give in to make her feel safe.

Sorry for the length, I wrote to the Harley's to ask if there was someone in our area in western NY who was pro marriage that they would recommend us seeing.

I would like to schedule something w/ SH but, W knows I called the radio show and has seen that I have read SAA as well as His Needs, Her Needs and think I was just having people on my side.

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She keeps saying if I cared and loved her that I would give her the S so that she would know she is staying for the right reasons, Which seems like a contradiction to me b/c if she was staying she wouldn't want to leave?

Tell her point blank that you've been learning about how to recover a marriage from infidelity. And you've learned FOR A FACT that 'giving space' almost always leads to the death of the marriage. You've learned that it's one of the most counter-productive things that you could do in this situation.

And then tell her that you love her too much to take that risk to your relationship with her. That if you let her take that step, then you know that there'll be no chance for recovery between you.

Nothing I've said is a lie...it's a sad reality that all of us have seen here on MB.

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