i just ordered the book three days ago

i've counseled alot with jennifer harley, she speaks of this every time we talk

i spoke to her about 2 weeks agao. she belives, as i do, that my H is a buyer....and that is what he wants to be happy

(he was faithful to me for 15 of our 19 years together and was a wonderful and committed H)

for some reason, he hasn't taken the steps to end our marraige so he can have this relationship with OW

Jennifer and i think it's possible that OW and her H ahven't D yet either.....jennifer predicts that OW is in the relationship with my H as a renter and will go back to her H

you seem to have taken only a short time to advise me in the same way that others who've known me for some time have!

Well, Eav, unfortunately I have come to realize that I have or had...some nasty renter tendencies...it's easy to spot one when you were one...

a post by InHisCare brought this thread back to my mind

she said




and my reply from her thoughts was





so i'm bumping this up.... hopeful that Mrs. Wondering will have time to catch up and post her thoughts

anyone else too!

ps,
lostsheep if you've read this thread so far, maybe you also have something to add, maybe not about this post

but maybe you have thoughts about the guilt and shame my H feels and how he says this is why he can't love me again or my feelings that i may have driven him back to OW with my anger

Eav,
I have wanted to weigh in on this thread several times and have not, b/c, well, my thoughts may not be what you want to hear. But I will tell you of my experience.

The ONLY thing that kept me going back to the adultery choice over and over again - was my CHOICE to. Period.

It had nothing to do with not being able to bear the guilt, or my H's anger. I may have told H those things, I may have even told myself those things, but the fact is, the crack made me high.

And I liked being high. I liked it so much that I left work early to take a hit, picked up my DD from daycare late for a hit. The crack was flooding my system such that I could look in the devestated crying eyes of maybe the most loving man on the planet (my H), and tell him he was too "soft" for me - I need someone more "solid" (even now I shudder - why didn't I just hack off his parts with an axe - that would have been more gentle!)

I went back for hit after hit because I was addicted to it. There is a song, (Kelly Clarkson - LOL) called "Addicted" and it is an excellent summary... there is a line, "I'm hooked on you I need a fix I can't help it just one more hit I promise I can deal with it I'll handle it quit just one more time then that's it just a little bit more to get me through this"

That's how it is Eav. I could see NOTHING but adultery choice. Nothing. And every time I looked at my H I saw his pain, and there were times, may times, that I wanted to run back into his arms and never leave them. But instantly the thought was "If I do that, no more crack". And so I let him walk away.

So, although I have now and have always had tremendous guilt, although I am deeply ashamed of my choices, in all honesty and transparency - I went back to adultery choice for only one reason - because I CHOSE to.

And the difference btwn a FWS and a WS I think, is a decision to make different choices.

For me - the stash went away, and by the grace of God, I looked in the mirror and saw for the first time in a long time, a clear picture of who I had become and said, "No more."

I can't tell you how much I want to say, yes, the guilt keeps us away. IMO, and in my experience - that is just hollow. I'm sorry. I really really am.

Eav -
Not to leave you with something completely negative... Have you checked LilSis' thread this wknd? There are stories of miracle and hope on this site... I guess maybe mine is that to some degree.. people can change. I can't advise you re: Plans A & B and where you should be... but I can say, people can change. And the God I know is a God of love and miracles... and He is BIG really really BIG and capable of things we can not even imagine.

So, if you are a praying woman, keep praying. I believe you are a child of God and He promises his grace IS enough, if we will lean on Him.

...but I am still learning, still seeking, still finding my way, so this lost sheep's words may not hold much water.

I do know - because I have seen myself in the mirror - people can change.

lost

you really are "lost" if you thought this wouldn't be what i wanted to hear <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

i WANT to believe my H is no different that any other WS addicted to the feeling of being with the OP

because then there is HOPE that if he stops getting that high, for whatever the reason, he will consider coming home to me

i don't care if it's because she leaves or if it's because things become unbearable because he's unhappy...whatever

my fear is that becasue I MADE HIM FEEL SO MUCH GUILT AND SHAME, he went back to her and is staying with her.....and wouldn't comeback even if the A did end

i fear that what he said IS TRUE, that he can't ever be with me again for that reason

i understand that most affairs are "addictive" and i believe my H's romantic affair is very addictive to him

i just keep fearing that it's more complicated that that.....because of the feelings that he told me i caused him to have

i KNOW that once the A started again, this was what made him feel such guilt and shame....he had again broken all of his promises to me....again broken his marriage vows that he had said were now everything to him.....had again choosen to hurt me when he had promised not to

but i didn't know about the A starting again for more than a YEAR after he left and that whole time, and for the 8 months before that when he was still home, our recovery was failing and i didn't know why...

all that time he blamed me for making him feel the way he did....for making him feel like he was a monster.....for only seeing guilt and shame when he looked in my eyes......

for making him stop loving me again

so i fear that i really DID make him feel this way during our false recovery......

or WHY would he have started the A again and gone back to this woman.....and HOW can he believe that he loves her enough to leave me and build a life with her...and her 4 children??

someone who he had told me he could never be serious about becasue she is "a wh*re who cheats on her H?" (his words) a person who he said was "sick because she didn't even think that what they did to their spouses was wrong and she never would"....


someone who he said didn't even mean that much to him because he admitted to me that just before i found out about the A, he had realized he could have OW whenever he wanted to and there was "no thill anymore" (his words) he went back onto Lavalife to look for someone else.....(all this time, i had forgotten that)

i'm trying to figure out HOW he can still be with this woman

how he can think he loves this woman and what could be making the "high" last longer than it did before?? or is it somehow different now that they are living together?

is he staying with her because of what he said? that i made him feel such guilt and shame he could never be happy with me because he can't beleive i would ever really forgive him and get past this

or is it....that he REALLY is happy with her

my H and the OW said that what they have is a friendship and that's what my H wanted from me.....that she does all of the things that he wanted me to do with him
they go golfing, bike riding, hang out at bars to watch football, and hang out with his friends

all things i admit i never did....i never even knew they mattered to my H...he told HER but not ME

lost,

although i understand and believe the concepts, i have such a hard time thinking of my H as a WS and applying the concept of addiction to him.....i just think of the good H he was for so long and the other images can't really get through

i SOOOOOO want to understand so i can try to see the reality of where my H's thoughts and feelings might be

since you have so recently started fighting your way out of the fog, your thoughts and feelings ARE helpful

i'd appreciate you sharing any other thoughts that might help me to understand what my H could be thinking or feeling

there aren't many FWS's here and that's sad because their views are very helpful to a BS

i'm glad your here lost

ps

i have been reading lilsis's thread

although i didn't know it at the time, i now know that i started plan A soon after the affair had started again

i also wrote my H a few letters like hers and i sent him e-mails and said the same kinds of things

all of my kindness, words of love or caring, words of forgiveness, and hope for a better life together

all of the times that i told my H i believed he was a "good man with a good heart who had just made a bad choice....but one that we could work our way though together"

all of those things were met with anger......rage even

and i couldn't understand why

you say that you have seen yourself in the mirror and people can change

my H told me so many times when i tried to tell him the things i said above.....that when he looks in the mirror, he sees a monster

i feel partly responsible for creating that image of himself that is burned into his heart

i feel like if i had never gotten so depressed and stopped meeting any of his needs, he would never have made the choices that he did....no i didn't make him have an A.....but i wasn;t there for him either.....and if i had not treated him as i did during our attempt at recovery, he wouldn't have done it again

i feel like i helped to destroy the person that i love most

THIS is why it helps me to understand the thinking and feelings of a WS

*****
i had forgotten about him trying to contact other women on lava-life right before i found out about the A

he told me this and why he did this during a counseling session

i checked on our credit card and confirmed that he had bought a bunch of lava-life posting credits at that time after not buying any once the A started

just wondering how this fits into things

Lost, I don't think this is necessarily counter to what Eav hopes for. No one can dispute that it's an addiction, it truly is. And at some point, everyone hopes the WS will make the "right" choice. In my NC email, I specifically said that I'm choosing not to be that person anymore.

Why has Eav's WH not made that choice can be debated...she can chalk it up to the way she treated him, but I don't buy that. From things he said, he had come out of the fog at least for a time when he saw the OW and the A clearly. For whatever reason, he went back into the fog...back to the drug and is again addicted. Anything he may have thought negatively about the OW has been wiped clean because of the resumption of the A. And of course, at this point, she has free reign to feed him all kinds of BS to keep the fantasy going.

There's no way to know if and/or when Eav's WH will make the "choice" the rest of us has.

I really feel bad for her living in limbo like this and carrying the blame for it as well.

Eav,
He is destroying himself.

Marriage is hard. Sometimes you don't get your needs met. For years H & I had trouble with sex - which prob should have been my 1st clue to get some help w/ past stuff, but I digress... I was certainly not meeting his SF needs. I gained about 10+ lbs in the first year or two we were married - which on my frame is a big deal, so I wasn't meeting his AS need. He never strayed.

When we got home from the hospital with DD, I became Atilla the Hun (again - prob should have sought help!). He never strayed.

I spent us out of house and home. I am a slob - he is a neat-freak. He never strayed.

My point is, I had an A because at some point I chose to deny my own moral compass. It never had anything to do with him. It was all about me. What I needed, what I deserved, what I wanted. The rationale - the justification - 'he wasn't meeting this need and that' - that all happens after the fact b/c in your head you have to do SOMETHING to ease the dissonance.

I think his going on and on about the guilt and how he can never feel the same because of it - I think it's crap! I think it is fog-induced bullsh**! I really really do.

When the A was discovered the first time - weeks after, I discovered I had contracted an STD. One that doesn't go away with a quick dose of medication. The treatment was horrific - telling my H much worse. (of course d***4brains insisted he had no idea from whence such affliction had originated)... I HATED D4B (let's call him that it's making me smile), for months - in fact, I told as many people as I could around the ol work place that he should see a doctor... makes me laugh now. I discovered he had been "cheating" on me with yet a third (and prob 4th...) infidel, and I determined he was scum of the earth.

And yet... I returned for more of his use. There is no sense to be made of it all.

(re-living that time in my head is making it easier and easier to dislike D4B so thanks!)

You must stop blaming yourself for your WH's choices. I am quite sure you did things wrong in the M. Big deal. Relationships are tough. People screw up. Doesn't give you a free pass to cheat.

This phrase, "and if I had not treated him as I did during our attempt at recovery, he would not have done it again." Nope. Wrong. You have zero control over whether he does it again or not. This is one of the reasons why my H is reluctant (at best) to consider reconciliation. He knows that no matter how great he is, or worse, if he EVER screws up ever - there is a chance I will run away again. And, he is right. IF I don't set about to fixing me.

My point, Eav, it does not matter what you do or do not do. When we are in WS mode, all we know is the crack. And we will say and do anything to get it.

My H could have Plan A'd for eternity and I would have cake-walked until forced to stop. Seriously.

You did not make him stop loving you. In fact, I would suggest that if he is really torn up - if he really feels he sees a monster when he looks at himself and is not just saying that to justify to himself why he can't be with you... then he still has some love in his heart for you.

That has been the worst part for me. Especially in the last 9 months, as H has been gone and we have had to deal pleasantly with one another, I have recalled my love for him. And it did, I think, help propel me to where I am.

I have no right to say this, but...
I don't want to hear anymore of this "I feel responsible" stuff from you. It just isn't true.

Read what MEDC said to me in the first day or so I was here - I was trying to "blame" my H, had a litany of things he sucks at doing, being... MEDC slapped me hard with a 12x8 (ok, don't know if that exists, but you get my point).

I had been feeding myself that crap about how it was b/c of my H's inability to meet my needs that I had an A.
And y'all called b.s. thank goodness!

Your WH is NOT your H. He is an addict, who is choosing every single day to continue using instead of seeking help. HIS choice - not yours. It's about HIM - I PROMISE.

Ok, I could go on and on... and am happy to share more if it is at all helpful. I'm not your WH, so I could be off-base here, but it is shocking to me to see my own words reflected in post after post after post. Apparently there is a script!

And Eav, I really and truly until a little over a week or so ago, thought myself soul-mates with D4B... fancied myself in love like I had never been before. With a man who has cheated on his W since before they were married. With a man who sought out the wife of another. Who has a reputation for doing just that.

The fog is not just any fog - it is pea soup... old, rotten, smelly pea soup.


Now, I have a mantra of my own to "stir and repeat"... you need one for you. And I think it should be something like, "I am fabulous! I am tremendously caring and compassionate and beautiful - excellent qualities! I am responsible for my own choices and NOT the choices of others."... or some such thing... maybe I've been drinking a bit much of the MB koolaid!

I don't know how to make that virtual hug thing... but Eav - HUGS! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

~lostsheep

(((((lostsheep))))))

I think the hug thing is you just put the person's name in parentheses or brackets...

you deserve a hug.

There is definitely a script and yours sounds just like mine did. I bought into the whole soulmate crap...and I realize now, that the OM (same thing, serial cheater, etc.) wouldn't have been someone I would've gotten involved with if I had been single and "sober."

Apparently this is all still pretty fresh for you, lost, and I am proud of you for the insights you have made. It is not easy to come to a place where you realize this is nobody's fault but your own and you were the kind of person to do this. A lot of people can never get to that point.

Lost, I loved this...


very insightful...

and this one...


is exactly why BS's have to do whatever it takes to stop the A, exposure, etc. and there has to be NC.

I may have to agree with you...it's time to hit Eav with some 2 x 4's.

Eav, your WH choose to do what he did, is choosing to continue it and it is not your fault. We all are in control of our own choices, our own reactions to things. We could all cite a laundry list of things that our spouses did that "drove" us to an affair, but none of them is justification, a lot of them are probably not even true, we have a tendency to distort the past to justify our actions.

You deserve to be happy. You deserve to be forgiven (so forgive yourself). First and foremost, you need to worry about you, recovering you.

((((Eav)))))

Mom

You need to set about healing yourself, regardless of whether your M has a future or not.

lost and mom

i've read your posts and i'm not sure what my thoughts are so i haven't responded yet.

but i'm thinking about all that you said.

if you have time, i've asked a few questions over on the thread that mimi had started for me and your views might help if you're willing,

thanks
eav

eav,

I'll see if I can find it...