Hi all. In a nutshell (am I the nut here?), I discovered the affair on New Year's Day - occurred a year ago. I am the BS and he is the WH. When confronted, he admitted all, asked for forgiveness, and had read numerous online documents I have sent him (yes, sent him - to that in a minute). Main reason for the affair is distance - his job keeps him out of town full time and home only every other weekend. Married 13 years and a 10 year old son (children also from his previous marriage, but grown.). He liked this website, read it, I filled out the emotional needs survey, he said he would and would discuss with me tonight online. He also agreed to send an email to the OW notifying her that he would never have contact again. He created it and sent to my email for me to mail, but it didn't satisfy me . He said basically - paraphrasing here - "even though I have had no contact with you for over a year, I love my wife and son and do not want to hurt our marriage. So even though I removed your email from my computer a month ago, I will not contact you."

OK, none of this gave me the conviction that he was ending it, whatever was left if anything. He is 1000 miles away from her and has been for a year, but I feel sure there has been continued email or cell phone contact. He suggested I write it and he'd sign... I refused. So , we are making little progress. He has lived apart from us for two years - crazy I know, but scheduled to be home permanently in a month and we are attempting to reconcile. Any ideas?

Welcome. That no contact letter sounds a bit suspicious to me. If he had not contacted her, I don't know why he would have to add the "even though" stuff.

It is going to be very hard to monitor his activities until he is home for good.

And it is very bad for a marriage for the spouses to be separated for such a long period of time. I would also be worried that if he had one affair a year ago that you found, maybe there is another one now.

How did you find out about the affair?

Everything you have said is true. I originally suspected it a YEAR AGO! found printed out emails that he brought home on the weekend - mostly business and one that began with "hi sweets". I recall talking with my colleagues at work about it - who starts any printed document - a record - with "hi sweets", even if they are friends. I have had friends (opposite sex) that I may say this to, but when you put it in writing, via email, it means much more. strange thinking I guess. I chose to ignore it.

Situation: I lost my job and was offered my former job again - a job i loved, and we relocated to another state. His company kept him in the previous hometown and he was bitter and resentful - didn't want to sell the home - move - dumped me in Atlanta and he stayed in a trailer in TX. I felt we had no choice - couldn't pay the mortgage on home if I didn't take the job. Son and I lived here, he stayed there. Went to Tx for a conference 2 months after move - stayed with him a few nights - horrible fighting and distance - blamed it all on the situation - found out a year later that he had already become involved with her.

A lasted 1-4 months, then he was sent to the east coast. found the printed email, chose to ignore, found a business card with her name (and no connection with his line of work) on his refridgerator and chose to ignore, then finally Jan. 2 of this year, tripped over the hallmark card with her love letter and photos. No reason for it to be there at all on the floor - he really wanted me to find it. So, after much denial on my part and effort on his part to disclose it - here we are. Don't think they have contact, but as you stated, who knows????

Okay, well you need to do some reading here, especially about the policy of joint agreement. It sounds like he wasn't happy with the move. It needed to be discussed and both of you agreeing on a solution.

But that doesn't excuse the affair. So now he is going to be like an open book, and let you have access to all of his email accounts, phone accounts, etc.

We are still working on the reading (one of us reads faster than the other : - )

He was bitter about the move, but I felt we had no choice. Yes, next step is the additional readings and full disclosures of email, cell phones etc. We'll see how that goes, brought it up last night with him. He didn't respond (Lol)

"He was bitter about the move, but I felt we had no choice."

Any time there is a difference of opinion of what to do, you need to discuss and reach a JOINT policy of agreement.

Hopefully he will be willing to be completely accountable to you. That is essential.

I have waited a few days to respond to "believer" because I was angry and defensive. Yes, there was a difference of opinion. He was totally willing for me to earn $7 hour with a Ph.D. when I lost my job AND for us to LOSE our home (not to mention boat and cars) because we could not afford them. When my former job came open again (in another state) and I was offered it again (after looking for a year where we lived with NO health insurance for the first time in my life and not able to take care of living expenses), it seemed like something we HAD to do. Yes, I would have liked to have stayed there too - family nearby- but, in the end he agreed to the move. I took the job, we bought a home, he moved me here, dumped me off, went back to the other state and then started the affair! So, obviously I do not feel his bitterness is justified. He has an occupation that would EASILY have allowed him to find work in the area we moved (a booming metro area - atlanta), but he CHOSE not to do so. So while my son and I were here alone, he went back and had the affair because he was JUST SO LONELY - told his girlfriend we deserted him!

yes, I believe in joint policy, but not when one partner would lead both to destruction (ie. bankruptcy, losing home, ongoing misery)

There was little consideration of my needs and even less consideration for how to keep our family together, even when it could have easily happened if he had simply been willing to look for a job here in his field . I had no choice. He did, wrong choice....

Sorry I upset you. But the POJA is real important. However if one person does NOT step up to the plate as far as family security, I can see your reasoning. I really hope you will keep reading and posting here.

I didn't say you upset me - said I was feeling defensive - a completely different thing especially with a stranger right?

Took some time to think about it - see some wisdom in what you said. Absolutely life would be different now if we had moved only with both of us "enthusiastically agreeing" to it - contract. On the other hand, we would be bankrupt etc.

Nonetheless, for us it is in the past. He has indicated he wants to restore our marriage. I now have to determine if I can be a partner in that process. Just don't know.....

I will continue reading and appreciate your postings - can be a lonely world here, especially with a screen name like "I am I said!" : - )

The acronyms are killing me - "poja" -- ?? without going to site, pont of the ??? don't know.....

IAIS,

Policy of Joint Agreement...POJA...I pronounce it POE-JAAAH!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Dr. Harley has a lot of articles here on this website...and many books, and this is one of them which aids spouses to partner fully...not agree to do what they are not enthusiastic about...

He describes brainstorming for mutuality...so both partners are respected, considered--to help spouses to not self-betray or sacrifice, which creates resentment in themselves and the marriage. Resentment kills relationships...like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die.

A wayward state of mind takes entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. This formula distorts reality, mixes it up heartily with our perceptive reality, and creates a fog generated by justifications instead of truth. I've been there, done that.

I'm curious what "upset" means to you. I saw you said you felt anger and defensiveness. Did you feel attacked by believer's post?

Did you hear that she was saying your choice made your FWH have an affair? I don't believe we can make anyone do anything...your FWH chose to have an A...and realistically, through the formula I just shared, he did so from choice. Affairs are cannot be justified.

One of Harley's books, Suviving An Affair (SAA), is a great guide to how to recover. Addressing the state of marriage pre-A helps us to work on those issues post-A...the A was an attack on your marriage...and this is what I perceived believer was addressing, separate from the A, for your recovery.

Have you been reading about transparency? Where you have all email addresses and passwords to his account so you do have a way to monitor NC (no contact)?

My questions are for clarity...you stated your goal here is to determine if you can be a partner in restoring your marriage.

The Emotional Needs (ENs) questionnaires are a great place to start...and you've both done them. Equally important is identifying Love Busters (LBs) and eliminating them. I see both of these choices as ones made for personal growth and honoring our marriage...coming to understand and own our part, our half of the relationship. In the articles section of this website, there are the Four Rules of Marriage...great guidelines to having a respectful, loving, thriving marriage.

As far as the NC letter...seemed to come very close, from your summary, to achieving its purpose...was it the part where he says what they did was horribly wrong that was missing? That he firmly wants no contact for life?

Here's where the POJA comes in, also...even in the wording...hard to get to POJA when you're only in your second month of even knowing about the A.

My own marriage is now recovered...and we achieved it without a NC letter...what we had in place instead was MC/IC weekly sessions, communication exercises, a lot of research and sharing...and those began before my WH recommitted to the marriage. Yours already has.

Lots of variables...no one thing saves marriages...well, I guess your committing either to work on recovery or divorce would be one thing, eh?

LA

Loving Anyway, thanks for your thoughtful response. I just spent the weekend with my WH , some good moments and bad but great pain as he left and shouted "bye" from downstairs and told my 10 year old to take care of me (I had just reminded him of the NC letter). Biggest confrontation- the NC letter! I informed him a week ago that I wanted it, provided him the Internet site which I think he looked at, he sent me a few emails with what he intended to write. First one started out with excusing himself "even though we have made no contac" -- I responded by telling him this could not be a letter about excusing him from responsibility. Second one, too much attention given to her needs "hope this doesn't upset you". I responded to that also via email. Told him he had to make this about simply he made a mistake, shouldn't have done it, hurt us, and would have no contact ever again. Told him I expected him to write it and sign it by end of this weekend (he was home) and I would mail.

He refused - on Sat. morning (he arrived late Fri. eve), I told him I wanted us to get on with life this weekend but couldn't do it until he took care of the letter. He said "FYI, if I write it, you could change all my words - not going to happen and I know you it will never be good enough". Previously, via email while still out of town he said he wanted me to write it and I'd sign it -- no way I told him. I told him that if he thought I would change his words than we were beyond repair - too broken, what would I have to gain? So, I brought it up at least 2 more times this weekend indicating it HAD to happen - we could put it an envelope, drive to post office together and mail it. I knew Sunday afternoon he had no intention of doing it but wanted to avoid the fight. Woke up Monday morning (this morning) and he is leaving. I reminded him he still had something to do - he refused.

So, I don't know what to think from here and I sound pathetic even to myself. I pushed my hand too much criticizing the letter (actually just 3 sentences) he intended to send, but he never intended to allow me to send it. He wanted to send to her via email (another issue all together - no access to his email). And, what does it all matter anyway? For all I know, he still communicates with her - no access to his cell or email.

It feels very broken right now, don't think I can or even want to go through the hard work of fixing it. Can't do it alone. In next reply, I will respond to some of your questions - sorry, I didn't do so in this message but no one can read messages that are too long.

My feelings about Believer's post are difficult to determine. No anger toward Believer, but definitely defensiveness. I didn't share all background info (my husband's travel, loss of my job, impending financial disaster if we didn't relocate for me to take another job etc.). Believer responded appropriately. Now this is something that would be a great research study (sorry, professors like me always on the look out for a great study_) Somehow in my mind "believer" was a male. I have read Believers posts again and can't see from replies to me why I thought that and it certainly could have played a role in my response -- well, the family, career etc. must always be about the man right kind of thinking???? and why did I think "Believer" was a male - did I see some previous posts to other people???

So, was I angry, upset, defensive and other questions? In my mind, we (our family) had no choice but to move here and I feel very guilty about it - I LOST MY JOB and WE had to move from a GREAT neighborhood to a neighborhood we all really don't like. I don't even like my job now that I have returned. I was defensive because Believer simply responded to info I provided and I did not originally share all the info about the loss of job, possibly losing home, and desparation of it all. So - note to all who post - share the main details.

Just as important, I know in my mind and heart that HE MADE A CHOICE, a choice I could never make in my heart. BUT, I took the time to explore my own heart and mind (and shared this with him via email while he was out of town) that given the circumstances (he lives away from us and I live in the family home with a job and child), if roles were reversed would I seek companionship when need and opportunity made itself available like it did for him but not me? It was a good communication between us, made me see how things I didn't do played a role (ie. not sending family photos, talking each night on phone) in his decision to seek someone else. However, now after weekend "visit", I feel very angry again and I feel very STUPID. I don't know that we can move forward and not sure I can do it again. I am not listening to people, just my own mixed up head and my 10 year old who pleaded for us not to get a divorce, despite our best intentions for him to know nothing. So there I am.. he is back in the high rise condo hundreds of miles away and I am here to continue to pick up the pieces and try to function daily. Sounds bitter.... I know... Your quote about resentment leading to affairs is applicable. At what point do I have the right to say "You caused this" -- already have, but don't know if I was right/. Sorry for the rambling....

IAIS,

Sounds like you're hurting a lot...anger is a secondary emotion...what's your primary one?

About believer's response...are you saying you were reactive? Thinking believer was male, not female? Or reactive hearing that she was putting you down for your choice to relocate, separate from your spouse?

I hear you saying she wouldn't have made the suggestion for you to include in your reasoning had she known all the details?

From my perspective, when I got that my marriage was the most important priority in my life, for myself, my children and goals...when my FWH was faced with losing his job (which would be house, pension, cars, etc. also), I was ready to go with that...to start over after years of accumulation...which meant a lot to me, as FS is a high EN for me.

I also knew that losing our marriage meant losing FS for both of us...so knowing what I valued most helped me in choosing what to stick with, without sacrifice, in consideration and respect of my FWH's choices...and we worked it out, as God seems to do, to not lose the job, take a transfer and now lots of benefits from it.

Not the least of which is that my DH knows that our marriage comes first; he's not a paycheck and he's not a thing. He's worth being poor with...losing a lot...because we can rebuild.

Takes it out of the realm of power struggle and into the heart of the marriage...and only I could choose....no martyrdom, no sacrifice...choosing from my highest priority.

I am not judging your choices at all...they are yours...come from what you feared the most...I'm asking you to consider choosing to act from love.

Believer's posts suggest something we often get far away from...choice. When you said: "In my mind, we (our family) had no choice but to move here and I feel very guilty about it" - Consider you had more choices which you didn't choose, with reason...when we narrow our lives down to "no choice" we are self-deceiving. When we allow ourselves to honestly choose...then we don't feel guilt...we are aware of our whys, and learn from them. Living consciously...not right or wrong.

"I LOST MY JOB and WE had to move from a GREAT neighborhood to a neighborhood we all really don't like. I don't even like my job now that I have returned. I was defensive because Believer simply responded to info I provided and I did not originally share all the info about the loss of job, possibly losing home, and desparation of it all. So - note to all who post - share the main details."

Did you think beleiver thought you did this cavalierly? I doubt it...I believe what she was asking you was to acknowledge (so you can know) what you choose when you feel desperate and how you justify...not as a bash...to KNOW.

When we engage in power struggles with our spouses, we make them an enemy of us...in our mind...and it can feel like a fight to the death...and it isn't. POJA takes the desperation out of the equation, moves it towards mutuality through both partners brainstorming, being a team with a goal of both being enthusiastic...no guilt, no bad guy and no crushing marital boundaries.

And it's where you can share your fears, like your FWH did with you when he said (with a big fat DJ in there) "FYI, if I write it, you could change all my words - not going to happen and I know you it will never be good enough" He fears your expectations, requirements...exactitude. Not just in the NC letter...in a lot of ways. Doesn't mean you are...means this is what he fears, why resistance and anger is his reaction, from fear...

Good stuff to know.

What I don't understand with your NC letter struggle, is where he's writing to suit your fear...for your protection...and if you were asking him to write his highest truth, you would know it..."Even though we haven't been in contact" to my perception isn't a negation of the letter. It acknowledges that there hasn't been contact, but that he wanted to solidify it in writing to protect his family from any future contact...laying the boundary. I'm not seeing an excuse in it at all. To me, NC letters are about ownership, amends and boundaries...

Good to know...and yes, I can wholly see where your pain from lack of information...not having passwords shared, commitment to transparency...is very real. Understandable. I think there's overlap with the letter...which was his chosen action to amend and protect...can you see where telling him where to go for sample letters, telling him when to have it done by, what was an excuse, (I diddn't identify three sentences...just two...and I'm with you on the "hope this doesn't upset you" all the way!!), determining it had to go by snail mail, approved by you and mailed together...what really was his part? Where was room in it for HIS amends, his effort and ownership? He is a grown, professional man...your equal...and when we don't allow room for ownership, we do not see ownership.

Because we are owning what isn't ours...and as a result, we don't feel loved, appreciated, acknowledged, important or accepted...and half of the reasons lay within us...not them.

I'm offering this from my own life experience...I railed at a lot of stuff my DH did and didn't do...especially as a result, I felt rejected, argued with, made the enemy of, the bad guy and here I was, sacrificing so much to make my family, my DH happy! What I didn't DO is get out of their way...not my sons nor my DH...I didn't respect because I was too busy fixing/pleasing/controlling...deciding...and I didn't grow side by side because I was focused on growing HIM.

Any action we believe we made someone else do on our behalf loses the gift the action originally contained...which is why we think mindreading is love, instead of disrespect...so others do for us without us having to lay it out. When we acknowledge all the choices WE make in our lives, we see others' choices more clearly. If we say, "I had to, I had no choice" then we will accept others when they say, "I can't write the letter to your satisfaction. I have no choice but to not write it."

Downward spirals. So I'm not saying you're wrong...I'm asking you if:

"I told him that if he thought I would change his words than we were beyond repair - too broken, what would I have to gain?"

and

"It feels very broken right now, don't think I can or even want to go through the hard work of fixing it. Can't do it alone. In next reply, I will respond to some of your questions - sorry, I didn't do so in this message but no one can read messages that are too long."

are what you want to feel, perceive, think and believe in your life? Do you like the results from what you are doing now...and would you like to change those? You can't control the outcome...you have total domain over choosing your results.

I'm posting to you because my perception is your perspective is very much as mine was...and similarly, your FWH seems like my DH...and our marriage for 15 years was like dogs chasing their tails...and we've stopped.

I can tell you, all of it felt justified, reasonable and clear to me then...I had no idea what Disrespectful Judgments (DJs) were or how much they permeated my life, my perspective, my perceptions...harming each person in my life, including me.

You have them in your posts...towards FWH, other posters, and yourself...and if you want to live in freedom, clarity, respect and strength from honesty, I would be delighted to pass on what I learned...

My intent is to say by this offer, I understand you're hurting...and I believe I know why...and I can't change, nor would I, a moment of your pain...I respect it is yours and it is valid...I address your suffering...and know you can halve your pain, with knowledge in action.

LA

Loving Anway, you wrote (sorry haven't figured out the quote function yet so just copying) About believer's response...are you saying you were reactive?

"Thinking believer was male, not female? Or reactive hearing that she was putting you down for your choice to relocate, separate from your spouse?

I hear you saying she wouldn't have made the suggestion for you to include in your reasoning had she known all the details?" I was reactive - feeling bad about the move and mostly that I lost my job and couldn't find another. Yes, I agree with you that life is all about choices but if 2 people in a marriage HAVE to work (as we do because he doesn't make enough money or me in individual occupations) than moves are needed.

You have given me an outlook on the NO Contact letter that others have not - others have confirmed what I wanted to believe as the BS - sounds suspicious etc. I demanded it on my terms and now, no matter what he writes and even if he does - it means nothing......my fault.

On the other hand, if I "get out of his way" as you say, he most often just makes a bigger mess by cheating..... I definitely do not want to live my life as the snoop or enforcer.

You also wrote: " I had no idea what Disrespectful Judgments (DJs) were or how much they permeated my life, my perspective, my perceptions...harming each person in my life, including me.

You have them in your posts...towards FWH, other posters, and yourself...and if you want to live in freedom, clarity, respect and strength from honesty, I would be delighted to pass on what I learned...

You have included so much in this post. It will take time to read, reflect on and respond. But, I I would like clarification on disrepesctful judgments toward FWH (think I get this from your respons) but other posters and myself not so sure about....

As for the No Contact letter, he owns it but prefers to put it on me. It is supposed to be a letter that helps us let go and move on, can't do that it he begins it with denial "haven't seen you in a year (I don't know that) and ends it with a sentence hoping she is not "upset". So, was I wrong to force my will on it? Yes. It means nothing .... for him, for me.... for her... for us.. for a move toward forgiveness and repair.

Believer, I need to know that you are a believer in the therapy of communication and that I look forward to hearing from you - defensiveness does not mean I do not like you or value your opinions. OH MY GOSH --- a light bulb flickered in my brain. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

just emailed him and told him that based on all previous emails and time together since the A, I could not continue and would seek an attorney for a separation agreement before the divorce.

IAIS,

"even if he does - it means nothing......my fault."

Oh, IA...there is no fault...there is result. You get to choose your result and my heart grieves to hear you say this because that's not what I meant.

I had to learn where I self-sabotaged...yearning to know and setting myself up, time and time again, to not know...what I truly wanted to...through my own desire to control what as a human, I cannot control. I didn't mean this was your fault...my intent was to clarify, give aid and show how much self-honesty helps, not hurts.

There is no blame...when there is ownership. No judgment...take it out and here..."I did this in this way." That's The Truth...no fault there at all!

"On the other hand, if I "get out of his way" as you say, he most often just makes a bigger mess by cheating"

Here's where the DJs hurt your own love bank, reality and relationship...you have never had, nor will you ever have control over other people...they choose. Whether you're in their way or not...their choice to act or react...to do or not do. What I was hoping you'd see is how you hurt yourself with the fantasy of DJs...and this is a huge one...because he chose to cheat...and he chose to stop cheating.

"I definitely do not want to live my life as the snoop or enforcer."

I respect you do not want to be The Snoop or Enforcer. I rejoice in your desire. What I was and continue to be is a truth-knower...The Truth of actions. I can't be an enforcer of anything but my own boundaries.

"You have included so much in this post. It will take time to read, reflect on and respond. But, I I would like clarification on disrepesctful judgments toward FWH (think I get this from your respons) but other posters and myself not so sure about...."

Your domain as a human being are your thoughts, feelings, beliefs, perceptions and perspective...they are your own...no one else can tell you what they are, if they're right or wrong...they are valid. They are your own.

Your actions are The Truth...you went to the store; you chose to withhold information...those are actions you take or don't take...to choose to believe, "On the other hand, if I "get out of his way" as you say, he most often just makes a bigger mess by cheating" is to state what another person will choose to do in the future--an assumption, not a truth. If you believe getting in his way stops him from cheating, then you are living in fantasy...

One of the several beauties of God's design is that he created us as human beings...not liars, cheats, evil or good...humans lie and do not lie, cheat and do not cheat, do evil deeds and heroic ones...

And we have no control, cannot be the cause or cure, for anyone else's actions...ever. That's our human limit...we can only control ourselves. In your choice to believe if you don't, he will...your brain is handing you all the emotions associated with that belief...signalling you of that belief...and it's a love-draining one...which says you control him, are responsible for him, therefore, you screwed up in your control, your choices, and made him cheat on you...when you KNOW you did not (in your mind)...and why your body and heart say otherwise.

Change the belief...

"As for the No Contact letter, he owns it but prefers to put it on me."

He cannot put it on you...unless you take it, IAIS. Another human limit. Humans have to take blame and offense...they can't be given.

"It is supposed to be a letter that helps us let go and move on, can't do that it he begins it with denial "haven't seen you in a year (I don't know that) and ends it with a sentence hoping she is not "upset". So, was I wrong to force my will on it? Yes. It means nothing .... for him, for me.... for her... for us.. for a move toward forgiveness and repair."

In the way he wrote it, in the way you perceived it...no, it didn't mean what you wanted it to...nor he wanted it to...doesn't mean that a NC doesn't mean anything...might be the very thing to bring you two to a place where you can state your stuff as yours and he can own what is his...and share his truth and you share your truth...to get to a joint place of The Truth...without DJs.

NC letters cannot protect you or your child from an affair...they are paper...where their power is in their symbol...a declaration for your marriage and your family, putting no one above you...acknowledging truth and committing to staying in the truth.

And in your case, his writing of it was an aid to still see the fog present..."hope this doesn't upset you" is a HUGE flare...and you could share that with him as, "You wrote this to the woman who chose to attack our marriage. I'm hearing that you don't want her to feel upset by the letter, is that correct?"

Respect, no assumptions...and stating truth.

Now I see your last post...

Can you say, "I choose to divorce"? Your choices are your own...I know I sound repetitive (even to myself)...they are yours and you have been betrayed. Not him making you choose, or you not being able to continue...legitimately not choosing to recover is within your province. Not bad or wrong. You choose your life.

The things I've said to you remain in effect...what we don't get now, we will repeat. My heart aches at the thought for you, for your son and your future. I know you can learn these, whether you divorce or not.

LA

"Loving Anyway" - man , woman, whatever (those who have read previous posts get the humor in this), YOU are HARD HITTING - not in a mean way. But I am having a very hard time taking it all in. I want to listen, to learn from your experience, knowledge of the materials on this site, and your wisdom. But, you make me cry, NOT because you are hurting my feelings but because I see some truth and can't find a place in my heart at the moment to forgive and move forward. Yet, EVERYTHING in me screams to work. Yet AGAIN, I am SOO Tired = did the rebuilding 7 years ago and don't want to repeat those dark days. I just feel very helpless - logic and analysis won't do the trick (a trick of all academics) , the heart can't be trusted, he can't be trusted, my mom is dead, my dad left my mom for another woman and suggested I talk to his new wife because she had experience with cheating men -- lol, my brothers are MIA except one who is in no position to offer life advice.

Just don't know how much of the burden I should continue to carry - feels like I work to do everything better and he doesn't have to do a thing. Will read your message again in next few days when anger and pain no longer cloud my mind. YOu have much to offer and a gracious spirit. Do me a favor, keep your messages simple. In times of grief, even intelligent people (and I think I am) cannot handle too much at a time. Much rather many short ideas than long ones with too much to absorb, just a suggestion. But thanks for responding. Oh, YOU did not cause me ANY PAIN and never thouht you were suggesting I move toward separation. That has been building and just can't stand it, even knowing the odds described in literature on this site (sorry I can't recall name, see what emotions do) just do not want you to feel I reacted in any way to your statements or other people on this board. Truth is , I am so volatile in my emotions since A discovered Jan 2 - WH has probably already deleted my email about separation with no thought -- we'll see. When does the siren "hello, get a clue" siren really resonate? I think it is too late.

You wrote (in copied quotes here): " And it's where you can share your fears, like your FWH did with you when he said (with a big fat DJ in there) "FYI, if I write it, you could change all my words - not going to happen and I know you it will never be good enough" He fears your expectations, requirements...exactitude. Not just in the NC letter...in a lot of ways. Doesn't mean you are...means this is what he fears, why resistance and anger is his reaction, from fear...
"

Yes, but you refer to hi as FWH (formerly wayward husband and I have absolutely no guarantee that he is not currently with someone in Memphis, because we have lived apart for so long and willl continue to do so for another 4 weeks. Our friends in Memphis, guy he shares condo with and his girlfriend treated me noticeably different over New Years when I discovered the affair -- but here is the kicker - affair I found out about was not in Memphis but in TX months before. SOOOOOO... the distance I felt, the uneasiness in my mind means they also know about unfaithfulness in Memphis. mentioned this to him (the WH) but he denied, of course. Still can't get him to wear his wedding ring -- hasn't worn in years..... he is scheduled to move home for good in a few weeks. Is this what I want and how do I handle it???

I read this and disgust myself - my signature should read "i am, right? can you hear me now?" - that insignificant.