I think that this is what I am doing by going with the plan that I just posted to noodle. See if he can "swim" without me and our marriage and our family intact, while living out of the house and not having me anywhere near him to meet any of his needs.

Am I getting it now?

gosh, I am so riled with your story, sounds just like my WS!!! it IS fear, yes, yes, great fear....fear of being wrong, fear of having to say that outloud, fear of admitting they are not perfect... fear of being responsible for filling your needs and then failing miserably. they set standards so high, no one can meet them, not even themselves.

IMO, they know they don't meet our needs, but rationalize it, their focus is on the self, thats safe, thats what they know. putting themselves out there would make them vulnerable...admitting faults, mistakes...again weak. in their minds they are not weak, they are strong, strong, strong...wrong, wrong, wrong. they are hiding. and the more we sit by and allow them to continue, they will, forever, and nothing will ever change. they have done this their whole lives, its their safety net. Love your husband enough to say "I know you can do better" when he says he can't, tell him you believe he can, he just needs to find his own way. love your M enough to say "we deserve better", love yourself enough to say " I wont accept anything less"
put your foot down, girl

Thanks, fighting...this is what I'm doing ~ I DO love him enough to keep fighting for him and our M ~ and that is exactly WHY I can't just roll over and take this anymore. WE deserve better, and *I* will not accept anything less, for EITHER of us.

Either we work on a plan TOGETHER, or he moves out. And that is NOT going to be an easy thing for him to explain to anyone:

"I had to move out because I just couldn't work on our marriage. Even though I am the one who had an affair,I didn't want to go to MC, or help her through her pain, or work really hard to have a better M, and so now we're separated.".

Because that is the truth, and that's sure as he** how I'll be explaining it to people, when they ask!

now you've got it....see how you wrote this. this is all his stuff...great defining that line. keep thinking that way. don't let him dragging his feet hold you down, and don't wait for anything to happen on march 2nd?(was that the date) expect that nothing will, and plan some good stuff in life for you. if he complains, or belly aches or does anything contrling give him a little bit of "I am going to make my life great, with or without you...I would rather it be with you, but that is your choice.

IMHO, no R talk until he is ready...that means HE has to make an action to do something, anything. you can define it anyway you want. my WS has spouted a lot of great words, but as of yet NO ACTION. to me action means that she will be ready.

Orchid: The WS doesn't set high standards. The gap gets wide when the WS lowers their standards but expects the BS to keep the correct standards. In the real world a person like this would be known as having 'double standards'. On the mothership, it is standard procedure. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />


FB has it right on. So what is a BS t/d? ID your personal and M boundaries. Implement them.

L.

You will be getting it but right now you are enabling him by tolerating him as he is.

L.

I would put this in the Plan B letter!

When people ask you why we separated, please tell them the truth:
"I had to move out because I just couldn't work on our marriage. Even though I am the one who had an affair,I didn't want to go to MC, or help her through her pain, or work really hard to have a better M, and so now we're separated.".

I'd like to encourage to get Melody Beatty's book, "Codependent No More". Get it ASAP, so that you can really see how you fuzz your boundaries with him. You seem to be having a very rough time really seeing it.

That's why Orchid and Noodle keep telling you you're not quite getting it.

[/quote]

Wow, fighting, I think you're so righ here... I believe he DOES "set" standards so high that he just assumes he won't be able to meet them ~ hence his fear of working on the M...he has it so wracked up in his own mind that it will just too hard, and so why even bother trying?


Wow, that is very insightful, I had never thought of it this way before. He does throw himself into many different interests, and in some ways this has gotten worse since DDay ~ maybe because it's so safe, doesn't put him "out there" at all....

He has always admitted that he is very guarded, but doesn't know why ~ this would explain it, though ~ because when he's just focusing on himself, he's safe ~ when he's opening up to someone else (me!), he is vulnerable...so it's much easier and safer to just stay focused on himself.

Thanks, fighting...I AM going to be fine with or without him...I already know this.

And it IS his choice. It is. I have done things "his" way for our whole M, and look where it got us!! I knew that there were things in our M (living the "Married-Single's lifestyle kind of stuff) that were unhealthy and not good, but I didn't understand about Boundaries at all; I was always made to feel that I was just whacked out and controlling or something. I'm STILL made to feel that way, actually.

So, Boundary's in place ~ work WITH me on our M, or we separate, and eventually D.

UGH, I so HOPE he chooses us ~ but I cannot make him. I cannot even make him want it. He just has to. He knows he stands to lose a lot. I would hate for him to NOT choose us, because in the long run, it's going to hurt him tremendously.



Well, there's NO R talk right now, that was the deal until Mar. 2nd (HE brought it up the other night, not me...)...and I think I've waited long enough for *him* to bring it up ~ 9.5 months! No more of that. If he decides on the 2nd that he wants to save our M, then we start MC and the Basic Concepts right away. Why waste anymore time? We could have been doing those things all along and we'd be SO much further along by now....

Orchid ~

"You will be getting it but right now you are enabling him by tolerating him as he is."

I know, but this I gave him a March 2nd deadline, and I want to stick to my word. If he decides on March 2nd that he wants to work on it, then no more enabling.

I will not tolerate him saying "he *can't*. He can and he will if he wants me to be his wife.

yes, yes get the book. I cried through the first chapter or so, because they list a few "feelings" that may mean you are codependent. by a few I mean about 2-300. I felt like someone was reading my mind. very powerful, and eye opening. and the best part about codependency is that YOU have the power to change it. when you change the way you look at your interactions with people and identify what you are feeling, you are able to make changes, at first the change is incremental, and you don't really notice it....and then you feel it, you feel power over YOUR life, YOUR choices.


got that, know that, been there, done that. it is ingrained in you now. these things take time to change. you were looking at yourself through HIS eyes. you loved him, believed in him SO much, TOO much. you made HIM responsible for how you viewed yourself. he said you were wrong to think a certain way, and you believed it, instead of making your own judgement...these people are hard to diagree with, you always have to make a case for eveything? am I right?? I had to rationalize any action...."I bought that because it was on sale" "I didn't get to the laundry because the kids were sick" I could never just say, things happened and thats it. I always had to make an excuse. I acted like I was doing something wrong. because in WS eyes's I never did anything the RIGHT way. now I see that MY way is just that...not right or wrong, but MY way. and I don't make excuses any more.

In plan B, I have been able to take a step away from the drama. focus on myself. now I see myself through MY eyes. My feelings are true and right, regardless of whether WS



more like he doesn't WANT to know why...again HIS choice.he is afraid to find out he may be less than perfect...that would be devastating...


careful, this sounds like an ultimatum.....more like this
"I am devoted and willing to give my all to YOU and our M...I am ready to heal my pain, I am ready to try to forgive and get past this. BUT, this is a job for two committed participants in a M, if there is only one person working at it, then it is my decision to not be a part of THAT marriage. this is MY choice.

and don't talk D, unless thats what you really want.

Huh. I guess great minds think alike, I had already planned on this.



I read her book "Facing Love Addiction". That was very good. Kind of hard to follow because I think H and I switch back and forth between the roles.

I'll order her other book too. Right now I'm trying to finish Boundaries in Marriage. I also have The Four Agreements that I haven't read yet. And few others. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I keep getting all these recommendations, and I'm ordering them faster than I can read them.

But they're all really helpful. It's cool because it's all stuff I can do on my own, H doesn't have to read them or even understand them in order for me to change and become a better person / wife...yay for me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


But I think I'm getting it now....MY boundaries ~ are around ME; it is not about me "controlling" HIM, forcing HIM to do anything ~ it's all his choice.

He can respect my boundary to not stay in a M where we do not do everything we can to improve it, or not. His choice.

It's ok to hope and pray that he chooses to respect that boundary, right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

yes, yes get the book. I cried through the first chapter or so, because they list a few "feelings" that may mean you are codependent. by a few I mean about 2-300. I felt like someone was reading my mind. very powerful, and eye opening. and the best part about codependency is that YOU have the power to change it. when you change the way you look at your interactions with people and identify what you are feeling, you are able to make changes, at first the change is incremental, and you don't really notice it....and then you feel it, you feel power over YOUR life, YOUR choices.


got that, know that, been there, done that. it is ingrained in you now. these things take time to change. you were looking at yourself through HIS eyes. you loved him, believed in him SO much, TOO much. you made HIM responsible for how you viewed yourself. he said you were wrong to think a certain way, and you believed it, instead of making your own judgement...these people are hard to disagree with, you always have to make a case for eveything? am I right?? I had to rationalize any action...."I bought that because it was on sale" "I didn't get to the laundry because the kids were sick" I could never just say, things happened and thats it. I always had to make an excuse. I acted like I was doing something wrong. because in WS eyes's I never did anything the RIGHT way. now I see that MY way is just that...not right or wrong, but MY way. and I don't make excuses any more.

In plan B, I have been able to take a step away from the drama. focus on myself. now I see myself through MY eyes. My feelings are true and right, regardless of whether WS validates them or not...WS NEVER validates.



more like he doesn't WANT to know why...again HIS choice.he is afraid to find out he may be less than perfect...that would be devastating...


careful, this sounds like an ultimatum.....more like this
"I am devoted and willing to give my all to YOU and our M...I am ready to heal my pain, I am ready to try to forgive and get past this. BUT, this is a job for two committed participants in a M, if there is only one person working at it, then it is my decision to not be a part of THAT marriage. this is MY choice.

and don't talk D, unless thats what you really want.

Well, I don't know if it's an ultimatum or not...the fact is, one of my boundaries is that I will not stay in a M where both of us are not actively working some sort of plan together. And what does "not staying in a M" mean? Well, it means D.

I am not talking D right now, because I do not want that. The but the cold hard truth is, if he really, truly decides that he just cannot ever *do* this relationship stuff, then that IS where we'll end up. NOT that I want it.

Now, here is the thing. Right now he is being so good to me. Took me out to a really nice, fancy dinner last night for V Day because he knows today is gonna be hard for me, lots of triggers and stuff. Just all around being very loving.

So, I KNOW he can do it!! He's doing it now!! We just need to figure out a way to make it stick (i.e., through MC and the Basic Concepts), and to clean up some other stuff ~ and to narrow in on each other's ENs. How hard is that?

Well, I don't know if it's an ultimatum or not...the fact is, one of my boundaries is that I will not stay in a M where both of us are not actively working some sort of plan together. And what does "not staying in a M" mean? Well, it means D.

I kind of meant more how it was worded, how it sounded, only because to HIM it will be seen as an ultimatum. thats how he will view it...then he will get defensive...and thats what you need to expect...the pull back...

as far as D goes...I prescribe to the theory of 'expect the best prepare for the worst" so, I guess I can see your point. but let HIM make that decision...if you want to recover...find out what you want to do to reach that goal. now its going to be different if he is involved, but you can plan your personal recovery regardless of his involvement. then when he choses whether or not he is in, or out....that is HIS decision to D...not yours. get it. Your decision is to recover yourself and your M on your conditions. regardless of his involvement...regardless whether D is coming... you don't want a D...so don't let it enter in your head...see the end of your journey...see your M working...see him making the right choices...just realizre how long it will take, and know that IF he does not make the right choices for your M...you can still make the right choices for YOU.

was that clear as mud?? does anyone more eloquent know what I am trying to say and can say it better???

More importantly, it's all YOUR choice. You're choosing your way forward. You're choosing to stop investing in a relationship that doesn't give back to you. You're choosing to recover.

You're choosing to stop waiting around for him to build a partnership with you -- and you're choosing the direction you're going in.

Your boundaries aren't about his choices. You're telling him what you have to offer. Period. He doesn't even have to make an active choice. He might dig his heels in and refuse to choose -- and then he gets the 'default' which is you choosing to move on.


His respect or not has nothing to do with your boundary. Remember, he can choose to respect your boundary just as well from the other side of a divorce as he can within marriage to you. Your boundaries are your statement of "This is what ~I~ will do. This is what ~I~ require in my life for a relationship." They aren't about controlling his behavior. It's just as "respectful" of your boundary for him to say "No, I'm sorry, I'm not willing to do that so we have to divorce." as it is for him to say [/i]"Yes, I will do that."[/i] An example of him not respecting your boundary would be if he says "No, I'm not willing to do that but I still want you to be married to me anyway." -- You can tell that's happening when words and actions don't match up.. ie. "Let me tell her what she wants to hear then do what I want anyway."

I don't want you to get caught up in the idea that the only way he can respect your boundaries is if he chooses the marriage. If he's just simply NOT GOING to do what you require -- then he SHOULD just tell you that and let you go.


Last thing...

I think you should be very easy to convince that he has decided he "won't" do the relationship stuff and very hard to convince otherwise. As long as you keep convincing him that he's still 'on the fence' that's exactly where he's going to stay. It's safe there. He's got you hanging around, waiting for him.

When Mar 2nd comes around, I think you be skeptical of what he says unless he's actively convincing you that he IS willing to do what it takes. (Not just 'saying' that to get you to stay and delay the inevitable hoping that you weren't really serious.) You should require some evidence in the form of immediate willingness to plan next steps in a meaningful way.

Mys

Yes, this would be the 'default' if he digs his heels in and refuses to choose. But come March 2nd, there is going to be no "refusing to choose". I will need an answer, period. Are you willing to to work with me on our M, or not? Are you willing to go to MC, or not? Are you willing to read over the Basic Concepts with me, or not?

And if he refuses to choose, well, that's a big fat NO to me, and then 'default' it is.


Thanks, mys...yes, I see this.


Yes, I have thought of this too. I am not sure what those meaningful steps should be, but...I have thought of that. And I will not be wasting any time this time around (he made some of these promises in Nov., when he showed his "FWH Of The Year" side for a short time. He said he'd do MC then, he'd do whatever it took. I lagged and didn't jump right on it. Not this time ~ this time it will be immediate.

islh,
I just wanted to say thanks for sharing...I didn't realize it but this thread has been a great sounding board for me. you know how they say you can always see another person's problem more clearly than your own? posting here gives me the confidence that I am doing the right thing
your FWH sounds so much like my WS... its nice to know there's someone else out there struggling with the same crap. I would expect the feet to be dragging well into plan B. stay strong, refocus. good luck.

would love to read your PBL if your interested in posting it when the time comes.

fighting ~ glad that reading this thread has helped you. Yes, you are doing the right thing, just as I know I am. We want to save our marriages, and just because they're scared or whatever to take the steps to actually DO that, doesn't mean we need to just sit back and take it. I know OUR marriage will never heal by going along with H's plan to recovery (I guess I should say NON-plan to recovery ~ just keep doing what we're doing and hope that things get better. Well, guess what? That's what we did before, and he had an A because of it!!! So, why would I do that again????)....

And yes, I will post my Plan B letter if it comes down to that.

Hang in there, this is a long, strange trip...isn't it?