Understanding reasons for behavior is not assigning blame, lamb person.

You can crawl out of this. You will.

I did.

Believe in *you* again. Start with a firm promise to yourself that honesty will rule your life. That's where it starts.

{{{{{{lostsheep}}}}}}

LS,

Hope you sleep better and realize that there will be better days. You asked a few questions and I thought I would answer them. You said/asked
For many it is life's experiences and then for those there it is life's experiences coupled with a consistent set of ideas coupled with reading and seeing amazingly similar stories day after day. If you look at my number of posts and realize I have read probaby 5 times those number of posts and threads you will understand how I and others come to where we are. My point you will a lot of you stay here. You may save your marriage, but I feel if not this one you will save your next marriage. And this dovetails into your next question.

You know and I know that kids don't necessarily listen to us adults. But, you should also know the more YOU know about relationships and how they function the better the advice you can give her when she gets older. Lostsheep, the goal is for your daughter to turn out like you turned out. You are still a work in progress. The goal is to have her do it without some of the trauma, we all hope that for our kids (that they don't make our mistakes) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Stay, learn, talk, ask questions and you will turn out to be someone your daughter can be very proud of. I suspect you are a lot closer than you seem to feel right now.


You start to remember what you told yourself, how you rationalized the first time you went with OM, what you said to yourself when you got home and faced your H. You begin to remember what you said to your H and what you said to your OM. It will take time, but you will figure it out. Most do as they move away from withdrawal and they start to normalize their life. It will come, if you let the questions settle in the back of you mind. It will come as you learn to be radically honest with yourself.


Yup, that is the question that all of the FWW's and FWH's have to ask themselves, just as all of the betrayed ask themselves "what did I do wrong?" "how could I of prevented this?" etc.

Hang in there LS.

God Bless,

JL

Morning new friends! Happy Valentine's Day. Thank you JL, I did sleep better last night. And we are making Valentines @ the breakfast table this morning so the day is starting off right. Have to say, this is a crummy day for me - for all of the reasons common to FWS. But, trying to keep my mind on good things. Have a good day!
~Baaaa <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

LostSheep:

About the "date"

I am not 2x4'ing you here. I am trying to understand.

Was this a rape? or just rough sex? Your first example of betrayal? Your first real sexual experience? Where did it fit in the continum of your sexual history to that point? And to what happened later?

Read that again. There is some understanding in there. I do not want to redirect this thread from where it needs to go, and Just Learning is giving you excellent ground to work. And a more productive initial direction to go.

However, when going thru the Harley course, one of the things that the couple needs to do is a sexual inventory and history. And in revealing much about oneself to your partner, this can create alot of intimacy.

And if you were raped, then it could have created intimacy problems that are affecting you to this day.

Only a strong "manly-man" does it for you.

Being more understanding, caring and "touchy-feely" is wimpy and cannot protect you.

OK? Somthing to think about.

And Yes, I really wanted to say, I appreciate that you have taken the 2x4's around here and keep coming back. I commend you for that. They will come out when needed. But you got past the initial flurry with aplomb and your humor intact. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

LG

LG... sort of an inappropriate question. There is no comparison to rough sex and rape. None at all. One is consensual... the other is not. She clearly stated that she did not want it to happen. Perhaps you should be a bit more sensitive in asking questions concerning a sexual assault.

LG, I will assume that based on your question that you mean no harm and that you really have not had any experience or training concerning sexual assault victims. But to give you a crash course in what not to say.... if a person answers yes to they have been sexually assaulted, it is generally NOT a good idea to ask them if it was just rough sex. Sexual assault is done without consent.

MEDC - It's ok, i get the question and I'm going to take all of the thinking re: my early sexual experiences and wrap them up in a pretty bow to share with my counselor! Actually, I have thought and journaled a lot since writing that yesterday and i think there is certianly some merit to that line of thinking and some of the reasons why this little sheep is lost.

Anyhoo - I woke up this morning and the first thought I had was, "I DO NOT think tractors are sexy!" which is really only funny to me, but is proof that the fog is lifting...

Do you know what happens when you are 4'10", 90lbs, and take a regular adult sized-dose of extra-stength Sudafed?
YOU GET STONED! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You are going to be okay LS. And hey.... I just got off my tractor...yep... John Deere... used it to plow my driveway! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Good idea about the counselor. Check in when you need to talk, okay? We will be here for you.

And hey, I am 6'3" 230 lbs and one dose of sudafed kicks my butt!

Keep working.

MEDC:

I understand your backgroud in law enforcement and you have had a lot of training in dealing with these situations.

And my question was blunt, I know, and there is no comparasion between rape and rough sex. I will defer to your greater knowledge overall.

But here was your question:

"Were you ever sexually assualted?"

And her response:

"Ummm, wow, Ok, yes to #1 on a "date" in high school H knows about this...never got counseling - I know, big red flag..."

I asked a followup question.

And her description has alot of unsaid things inside it.

LostSheep was in a R with BH at the time and she went out with the rapist. Not her fault on the assault.

And considering the terms of description of her H to start this thread, I wanted to review this further.

And my question, in hindsight, is harsh. Thanks for calling that out. I will attempt greater sensitivity in the future.

I believe this episode in her life went on to color everything that followed.

But if she is rewriting history to make her self feel better, I believe that needs to be addressed. That would go along way to restoring honesty in this relationship.

I understand you reasoning LG. Thanks for understanding my point. And ftr, a lot of people are assaulted on dates. That setting provides the opportunity for an abuser to do what they do. Sometimes this type of assault is so much worse than a "starnger" because it makes one question their ability to trust those closest to them... whereas we have a natural instinct to be wary of strangers.

Hopefully LS is able to work this all out in therapy.

Thanks again.

Hi there! I was playing a bit of "getting to know you" on another thread & thought I would copy it here... ya'll seem to know one another pretty well... and I've demonstrated my desire to get naked & let the 2x4s come... when I re-read my "timeline" I am appalled - why H didn't pack MY bags years ago is a glorious mystery - dude deserves better.

And - LG - I will toss a couple of thoughts your way re: the date.

well ok then...

Hi! I mean, Baaa. I'm lostsheep.

I like long walks on the beach, funny movies that don't make me think too much... oh, wrong site (lol).


FWS (me) 34
BH 36
DD 6 - I have many names for her - it's odd really - one day I called her by her name and she says, "Mom (eyes rolled) YOU don't get to call me that - You have to call me..." and then rattled off the list of nicknames.. so here we will call her 'Punk'.

D-Day #1 3/04
NC - no formal ltr, OMW told by OM
D-Day #2 9/05 - EA, same OM
D-Day #3 4/06 - EA, same OM, H left (can you blame him)
DV Day - 3/7/07 - trying to hold that off maybe...
Fog lifts 2/12-2/13/07
In Recovery (me) - 6 days?

What to tell? I know one thing - I am happy like I haven't been in a really long time the last few days - I think it's called "peace". Not that I have anything figured out - just that maybe it helps to start the process, you know?
AND, for the first time in a long time, I am seeing H thru eyes not clouded - which is bittersweet, cause now he's gone, but still, it's better to see clearly - a lot less ick in my soul.

Anyhoo -that's me.

~Baaaa

Ok, just talking here because if I spend one more second on this busines plan I'm gonna hurl...

There was a time, right after D-Day #1, when I was really working hard to think through things, to try and understand where my head was, started praying and reading again... anyway, a friend & i were talking about how tough it was since I worked with the OM and I said, "It's like a carrot dangling in my fact the whole time." And she said, "Well, we all have our carrots - you just have to learn to not want them." and I said, "Maybe what you need to do is learn how to love the carrot in your own fridge!" She and I decided that would be a great book title - Loving the Carrot in Your Fridge.
Neak, thoughts?

I do love to write - as you can see - and it is one of the most therapeutic things I can find to do. So who knows, maybe someday I'll write this carrot book!

I miss my carrot. And I spent a lot of time last night feeling guilty for changing him. B/c he is diff. He has zero problem keeping his talks with me secret from his GF (which I scolded him for), he says things like, "It's great - she's here for 3 days, we have lots of sex, she leaves for 4 days & I do what I want)... it's not like him. And I feel sad that maybe I'm to blame for him becoming his evil twin. I hope he will at least get in counseling himself. Something to help yank the knife out of his back. Seems like Maybe this is one of the hardest things about being the WS - seeing in living color the destruction.

Talk to me about RH - esp about historical RH - if H decides he wants to reconcile, do I have to disclose all the dirty things OM & I did? Some of it would make him change his mind I'm pretty sure.
...BTW, what does that make me? B/C I really liked some of those things... was that all b.s. 2? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I have to say that your H is concerning me. It sounds like he needs some help now because he is showing a HUGE lack of integrity. HE is responsible for his own actions.... just like you are yours.
If your H asks... yes, you need to disclose 100%! And if he decides to leave that is his choice and he has a right to make that decision.
I want to tell you something and it is going to come across as a 2 x 4. No one here is at all interested in what you liked to do or about the OM. I would save that stuff and realize that he is nothing but a pos that would help you cheat and betray his wife.
STOP talking about how the OM made you feel good and blah, blah, blah. It is nauseating. Okay... now back to MB.

Lost:

There is a letter around here called "Josephs Letter"

It is on the Just Found out forum for sure and on this forum as well. Find it, read it and understand it.

It's a letter from the BS to the WS detailing why the WS needs to tell the BS what was going on during the A.

That said, some BS do not want to know the details. THIER Choice.

The BS is the one that determines what they want to know and at what level of detail.

And any hesitation on your part to fill them in? Bad, Bad Move.

What do you have to hide? Really? Are you embarrassed? Good. That is healthly actually. But it shouldn't interfere with your answers.

Once that true transparency sets in, the rest is easy....

And like MEDC said, if he decides to leave, that is his choice.

>dirty things OM & I did?

If he asks.

Repeat after me, dear one: 100% transparency.

For me, I asked at first, but then I realized it didn't matter. I mean for real...he was with me AND with her...it's not rocket science that he was sayin and doing the things both wanted to hear.

'Sides...he was a liar then.

What is important is whether or not he's a liar now.

As for his comments re: gf (which makes him a wh in my mind if you are not divorced...there are ways to dv someone and keep your nobility...messing around b4 the divorce is USUALLY not the way to go about it)

Honey...my friend Oz on another board has a sayin' she snagged from LynnG here on the OC/PG board..."When dealing with adultry, everyone gets a slice of the hurt pie." (not certain if that's it verbatim, but you get the gist)

While they are talking about OCs, it's true of ALL adultry. I'm thinkin' your husband is trying to hand his slice back to you a bit.

(my Wookie gave me 2 from the same OW - I have to put that in there cos one time MEDC thought it was ME that birthed my babies...I thought I'd not sit down for a week afterwards...but you gotta like our tell it like it is MEDC, cos he is loyal to his values TO NTH DEGREE...if you don't like 'im, you gotta respect THAT!)

You spoke of the knife in his back...seems he wants to jab you a bit...

It's not uncommon tho. When we hurt, our knee jerk reactions are to hurt back. Trouble is...your dear husband doesn't realize he's also handin' a few slivers of the pie not only to you, but your young'un.

That's something this fBW has a VERY hard time swallowing.

(oh...and I think it's a GOOD thing that OW - and yes, I count her as an OW - thinks he's too attached to you and dd...VERY good...he's right...their relationship does sound like it's doomed...nothing like a little foreshadowing)

>And I spent a lot of time last night feeling guilty for changing him.

Okay. So you feel guilty. Here's a little factoid for you...

He wouldn't have stayed the same anyway.

Life changes us.

We can't stop it.

If we did....well, it wouldn't be "life" anymore, would it?

While you are looking at that bit from a WW perspective, I'll let you in on a secret from the BP's viewpoint...we all gotta realize this and LET IT GO!

We humans build up and plan our lives out in our minds....so much so that when LIFE happens to us, it crushes us that our futures are not as we envisioned.

What WE ALL must understand is that those futures were NEVER OURS AT ALL. They were castles in the sky...they were pink and purple elephants...THEY NEVER EXISTED.

Yeah. You gotta mourn that your plans might have to change...mourn it LS...grieve it...and then LIVE...plan something else...some other future. But do so knowing that even those plans are not guarenteed to you. Make them malliable...learn from your past and make your plans malliable so that you can continue to LIVE!

- Kimmy

Point taken MEDC. My bad.

LS,

Here is the letter that was mentioned to you. Just click on the bookmark Joesph's Letter

You asked about telling your H all of the details. The advice is to be transparent and answer ALL questions honestly. However, he is something that is often very good to consider. If you read Joesph's letter you can see the need to know all is very imporant. However, in hindsight, some BS's really wished they didn't know all of the details.

What is often recommended is that the WS ask the BS to write down the questions they want the answers to. Then below each question write down WHY they want to know, and how the information will help them. THEN, let the questions sit for a few days, review the questions to see if the BS still wants the answers, if so, then ask away. You do this because you know some of the answers will really hurt, but so does the BS. It just sets things on a different plane.

You then said
If you really liked them, then radical honesty and the policy of joint agreement dictate you should talk about them and perhaps he will like them as well. Lostsheep, you have no idea of the dynamics of these things. But, I will tell you that more often than not most men are more than happy to do something their W's enjoy, even if they haven't tried it or it at firsts seem a little dirty. Your H could really surprise you in this regard. My bet is the man has untapped potential. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Must go,

JL

PS: Have you talked to him at all about things and your growing insights? I know his trust will be low, but in some ways he has little to risk by waiting and seeing how things turn out with you.

Lost:

I will disagree with MEDC on one point, however.

No, we don't really care about how your OM made you feel, in the throes, as it were.

But there were things about OM, that met your EN's of some sort. Once those are identified, it makes it easier for us to discuss how we can help you to connect to your H and have him meet those EN's.

You are going thru withdrawal, and OM was always good at ______.

Put those thoughts together, and then think:

My H wasn't allowed to do _______ as well as OM because I _________.

See the thought process.

Brings out what you limited in your H about your EN's.

And makes you realize where some of the craks in your relationship with H began to form.

LG

Oh JL I don't know anything anymore. I'm so stupid - yes, I have told him about some of my insights and clearing vision - in fact I sent him an email with some of the things I have discovered over the past few days and he is confused and not really sure what he thinks about any of it - mostly a too little too late thing, which I get. And he is just really behaving like a college freshman - being all kinds of deceitful with his GF, becoming chummy w/ girls @ work who are "dancers", now he doesn't want to go to conferences @ DD school tonight b/c he just wants to stay home and play w/ her and all the loot he got her for v day. So, ok, I'll go alone, but I was hoping (here's the stupid part), that maybe I could talk him into dinner with DD & me - no such luck... he doesn't want to "confuse" DD. And if he doesn't stop hanging out with "dancers" we're going to have to have a talk about how that's prob not the best thing for DD - to see a revolving door of silicone through his life. He did tell me last night that he's done wiht the gambling/sports betting thing - so that's good.

And he's prob right. All this playing nice is just going to give DD false hope - he((, look what it's doing for me!
So - just square my shoulder and get back to working on me.

Someone techie? LG? Somone said "LS you are a runner". I'm not a runner, I'm a boxer - I cram everything in a box and slam the lid shut, tie it up with a pretty little ribbon and move on. If ever I decide to start taking all the lids off, man there are going to be worms all over the place!

~Baaaa

Wow do I sound like a whiner on that prev post??!! Not much of "bossy" left there! Here's the deal folks, I feel like sh**. I have messed up my life, my kid's life, my H's life - not to mention the trickle-down effect in our families - then there is the OM, OMW, OMDS 1 & 2... ick!!!
But I am the great believer in happy endings! And not only do I believe in them - I beleive that I can MAKE them, pretty much with a wave of my hand. Which is prob part of how I got here - anyway...

I can't wave my magic wand over this mess. And that is a really hard pill for me to swallow. No happy endings anywhere I look (I know, they may be there but I can't see them). So, anyone remember the Incredible Hulk TV show? And at the end of each story, David Banner (?) - the hulk in normal person form, would pick up his backpack, throw it on his back, and kepp on walking down the highway, alone, back on his quest for amswers. Well, throw me a backpack, cause I'm gonna get to walking. Think I'm going to go raid the bookstore for a little V Day gift to myself... starting with your recommendations.

"Can open, worms everywhere.." - Jerry Seinfeld

LG... she can discuss her EN's as they exist independent of the OM. Her needs are her needs... not things the OM does or did. The fact is she was talking about the things she liked doing with him... not, I want to be able to explore this with my H and he is not very physically affectionate.
The OM was not a real relationship and the needs met there included a component that cannot and should not be duplicated in the M.
And as far as her needs go.. we are a long way off from having to wonder about those right now. For some reason there seems to be a focus coming from your posts on her sexual needs. It is not even and should not even be on her radar right now. Because without intensive therapy... she will frankly have no clue as to what her needs are in a healthy relationship free of the ghosts from her past.