care to give a brief summary?

techie,

Are you asking me for a summary of hopeful_person's recovery?

If so click on this bookmark hopeful_person

Hope this helps.

JL

lostsheep,

I was moved by your posts to Eav on her thread, so I looked you up to see what your story is...

I've spent the better part of the morning reading this thread and I would like to say the following...

It may have appeared that your change of heart was sudden, but insights happen that way once you're out of the fog, your true self reemerges (what was always there but hidden)...that's how it was for me as well.

Also, your A was ended by the D4B (I think you'd like him known as, LOL)? You were slammed somewhat for deciding you wanted your M after all...but what may be hard for BS/FBSs to understand, is that being in the fog, in the midst of the A, is being high...under the influence. You cannot think clearly enough, even though you know it's wrong, the allure of it is too much for us to resist. That's why BS's are advised how to bring an A to an end, because it's unlikely the WS will be willing to do it themselves. But once that contact has been severed, the fog lifts and the WS can begin to think clearly again. The saying you don't know what you've got until it's gone, isn't a "saying" for nothing.

It is so textbook...I called myself an alien as well. It's still referred to as my psycho period. My DH says "yeah, you're a nut, but at least you're my nut.." So I can't complain with that.

What I find so enlightening and uplifting about this site and the people here is that there are actually people who are willing to help a WS/FWS, including hitting them hard when they need it, but also giving them advice and words of hope and wisdom. Additionally, finding a place that actually encourages and promotes the rebuilding of families after infidelity is something in and of itself. I have been on other sites, prior my EA even, and was advised that if I wasn't happy then I should leave...that's how a majority of the world views marriage...what's in it for me?

MB is a special place. BS's who come here and are open to rebuilding their marriages and doing what has to be done, putting their needs aside for a time at least, putting the pride on the shelf, to bring their wayward spouse back home, just amazes me. BS's who are ready to give advice to WS's amazes me. In this world of me, me, me...that is incredible. Once my FBH commented that he thought I would think he was weak because he stayed with me after what I did. In actuality, I love and respect him more because of what he endured to stay with me and restore our M. I have the most intense respect for a person that can put their own pain and pride aside enough to save the M. How many of us FWS's would be capable of that?

You've been given highly insightful and intelligent advice here and your transformation is wonderful to see.

Keep up the good work, listen to these people...they are sooooo scary smart!

Mom

Momto,

You know you said something that seems to be huge for male BS's
I know as a male the concept of being "weak" is something we avoid from grade school on, and yet to rebuild a marriage takes so much strength. However, I would bet that LS's H is thinking along those lines, as well as, "I'll show her that someone can find me attractive and worth being with."

With females here it seems to be the case that "weak" is not as big an issue, but rather "trust" or being able to "depend" on the male WS.

You are very right about this site though. The strength shown by both the BS and WS is truly remarkable and uplifting. It is probably why this place is sooooo addicting. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I do hope the LS does read "hopeful_person"'s posts.

I enjoyed your comments and I think they are very germaine to LS'situation.

God Bless,

JL

Post deleted by lostsheep

Yes. God.

I am certain that you will have much to talk about in counseling to help you deal with these thoughts revolving around sex. I hope you have found a good therapist that can help you. In addition, I would suggest that you get a "pen pal" from these boards that you can email with. Needs to be a woman, so I am out. Some things you obviously need to discuss are private in nature.

LostSheep

One day, you will be FoundSheep.

Because this post is very illuminating.

You actually understand your thought process that you used to have and the underlying destructive tendendcies it represents.

And this:



Oh, Really?

I don't think so.

Work sucked just as bad.

You may have been failing a class as well.

But you didn't pay attention to it then.

But also:

You were attempting to breakup someone elses marriage.
You were destroying yours.
You had abandoned your child.
Your tendency to find that 20 year old? You didn't consiously (sp?) realize it.
All your other unnamed selfish behaviors? Didn't really realize those either.
And you, like me, our golf games still sucked.

See how much better things are now?

Recognizing problems is the first step in resolving them.

And all those creepy crawlly things? You can start picking them up and cleaning them up, one at a time.

You never even wanted to go into the "boxes" before....

Where will you be six months from now?

Closed all the "boxes" and returned to the same place you were six month ago?

Or six months further along the path to your personal recovery?

Be the Star!

lost

it's not being alone that's the worse part for me.....it's being without the person i love, wanting so badly to be with him and never knowing if i will be again

we were apart in college and i didn't like being apart, but i knew we would be together again. we were "together" in our hearts

so i never really felt "alone"

in one of the books i've read, the author was giving a speech to people going through a separation or D. he talked about what it is like to be lonely. he said that he traveled alot to give his lectures and he was away from his wife during those times so he knew what it is like to be lonely.

a man approached him and said.....you don't really know what it's like to be lonely

you have someone at home waiting for you

lonely is when you don't

I thought I deleted that post!

I know you are right LG... maybe that's actually the hard part - the AWARENESS.

I'm better. I went away for a while, read an amazing article for school, etc. I think part of my issue is, I feel stuck. You know? It is hard to start recognizing things about yourself and not want to rush to a whole new life... at least it is for me.

And the boxes... well, it was getting a little crowded up there, so I guess we'll empty some of them out! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

My DD has been sleeping with me, and I'm sure i should stop it but it is helping us both through this time I think. Anyway, she was resting her head on my shoulder, sleeping last night and I thought to myself, "How much of her did I miss?" Hours spent on the computer emailing... on the phone... not fully engaged.

This time is hard on both of us (actually she really is doing very well), but in a way, I'm sort of selfishly thankful for it. She and I are so close. I mean, I'm still too lame to kiss in the drop-off zone at school in the morning, but we are very close.

It's the loneliness thing - it really sneaks up on me sometimes. And it's hard.

I have good plans for the weekend though... a girlfriend & I are "making me over" - new hair (ok, that is being done professionally), new makeup, manicure, massage... and then
some fried food and margaritas and then directly home!

And then church on Sunday followed by brunch with a (girl) friend of mine who lives a bit away... and then homework.

It is the Punk's wknd with her dad, so I'm trying to fill my time.

He was so funny tonight, my H... when I went to p/u DD, he walked us out - carried my stuff (??!!), and watched to make sure I was ok pulling out into traffic.

He's a really good guy. Told me he heard this song onthe radio - Christian radio, called "Walking Her Home"... and he cried while listening to it. Anyway, I heard it tonight. It's a love song - boy meets girl, walks her home form first date...fast-forward to she's 80-something and he's walking her Home. A total "Lost and Mr Lost" song. Or at least it used to be. I know he still loves me. But really - how does one come back in light of all of this mess? I know it happens.

I'm going to read that thread JL suggested tonight.

This is THE YEAR I get good enough to play with people other than my H who loves me enough to put up with my military golf... left.right.left right left. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

~lostsheep

Eav,
I'm sorry I haven't given you much insight today on your thread...been a bit "lost" (he he)

When I was away at school (boarding school - not b/c I was bad - it was an art school)... I would make these silly signs for my door that "counted down" the days until I would see H (BF then) again.
We ran up some SERIOUS phone bills - and that was before cell phones (YIKES! Can you believe that??!!).

There is a picture I can NOT get out of my head. It is a day we were on vacation (the trip the Punk was conceived on actually <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />), and it was raining outside and we sat and watched the US Open... it was the last time Tom Watson won...and we just sat on the couch in the condo - rain falling outside, hot coffee, snuggled up with no where else to be. And I look over at my couch and he is not there.

Because I never asked him to stay. And I never asked him to come back. Not in 9 months. He must feel so unloved and unwanted.

I agree... there is nothing more quiet than an empty house. I think the day the fog first started clearing was early January, I had interviewed for a big deal job (still waiting) and it had gone SO well. But it was a Friday - the Punk was with H, D4B was on his way home to his family. And I was so excited and wanted to tell someone... and I opened the door to a dark empty house and I cried the entire night. I think that was the first slice through the fog. I realized, there is no one here. And I have done this. And, there will be no one here. D4B will be with his W, H will be where he is... and I will be alone. It was an awful day.


But, Eav, I think you and I are somewhat in the same boat. We both need to try and focus on ourselves, be the best us we can be, so that if what God has for us is the restoration of our Ms we will be ready. And if it is not, we will be ready.

~lostsheep

LostSheep,

Time to turn those worms loose on the soil don't you think? Open those boxes and turn them loose.

You said something that I thought I would echo back to you, and then remind you of something else you just said.

You said
Just think LS, your H has been doing that for a long time. Opening the door and no one is there. But, unlike you he has had no one that loved him or even "thought" they loved him. You had OM, AND you have always had your H. You know in your heart the man still loves you, even now.

I mention this to you for several reasons. One, it should be obvious to you WHY he has a GF...he has spent well over a year with NO ONE HOME, even before he left. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Someone ANYONE who would show him some kindness is going to be welcome in his life. In a word he is "vulnerable."

Given this, think about what else you said
Yup, you have it, the only thing worse than alone is UNLOVED AND UNWANTED. So what are YOU going to do about it? Are you going to become part of his life again, are you going to invite him into your house for a cup of coffee? Are you going to become his friend, even if you might become his exW?

I know you are busy and I know you have many things on your plate, but now is a good time to be at least friendly to him. Now is a good time to become someone that listens to him, and doesn't just talk at him or ignore him.

As the fog clears there is a tendency to go to either the extreme of hyperactivity or sit overwhelmed by what you have done. The right activity is to start to be his friend again. You must be that before anything else is possible.

I do hope you read the thread I left you by "hopeful_person". She had amazing focus and strength and she reunited her family, because she did not give up, although there were many times she was Soooooo discouraged.

Must go.

God Bless,

JL

JL,
I have started reading the hopeful thread... and will keep at it.

I have been calling H just to say Hi - well I've actually had an "excuse" to call but today I said, "actually, I just wanted to call you and say Hi." Which he seemed guarded about. Imagine that!

I had him over for coffee a couple of weeks ago to talk about if this was all the right thing... hmmm, that was before D4B "dumped" me...and I have been asking if i could sit with him at church (yes). I asked if he wanted to get something toeat with me & DD on Val Day b/c he had no plans, but he thought that would be confusing to DD.

In fact, the other night he was upset with the GF - they had argued, and i listened and gave him advice (rocket scientist over here!).

So I am trying to be his friend. The calling thing has made a difference - it was something he used to mention - how it would be nice to just get a call while I was at work for no reason.

I think that's one of the reasons the break-up didn't stick (with GF)... he was alone for one whole weekend night, and hated it. So when she called him a couple of days later to say "I miss you", I think he jumped at the chance to not be alone.

So I'm trying to be friendly. I'm a little worrid about the DV details though - that some of what is in the agreement might make him angry.

Also - I have been thinking. Although he has every right to DV me, I don't really have that same out.... he did not cheat on me. Yet I am the petitioner. I am the one "seeking" the DV - only b/c he asked me to... but I have been thinking - do I leave that alone?

Anyway, I am trying to be his friend. And at the same time be sensitive to his resistance and not "push".

Well - off to class. Thanks again for all the encouragement and wisdom!
~lostsheep

lost

i just wanted to tell you that your thoughtful post on the thread i started about guilt and shame is really appreciated

your perspectives are very helpful to my understanding.

thanks!

LS,

Continue to try and be his friend. But you need to talk to him about the divorce and express your feelings about it and him. Don't push, but let him know you would prefer to work on the marriage when and if he is able to consider it.

This is a delicate dance right now, but as you can see from Hopeful_person's posts, even divorce does not mean the end. It all depends on what is in your heart and how much will you have. He has been badly burned by this, and he has a lot of reasons to not trust you, but as you can see in H_P's posts even a little contact can make big differences in the long run.

Hope school is going well and the fog continues to clear.

God Bless,

JL

Evening all... question.
Can someone say more about the taker/giver stuff? I've read some on the site... but Pep said something to Eav about being too much giver is bad for a R, etc. and I would like to know more about that.

Anyone care to enlighten this little lamb?

Hi LS,

I hope you saw the book mark I left you on your other thread to me. It has hopeful_person's orignal post as well as how to find more of her posts.

As for your question, balance is really what need between the taker and the giver. People recognize that too much taker is bad, because it is associated with a common term, selfish. But too much giver, how can that be bad?

It can be bad for a variety of reasons. Usually when someone is solely a giver, that means that they are subjugating their real selves. It means that the partner gets used to the taker always being front and center and not the giver part of them, which stunts their interaction with the giver.

It means that the spouse of the total giver, is not really needed. Isn't that weird, some needing to be needed? Yup it is true.

But, to me the real reason that being a total giver is bad has to do with how love is formed and yes even affairs. If you read here long enough you will see that often times affairs start when one part of a couple starts to help the opposite gender of another couple, be it through a rough patch in the marriage, work, relationship, self doubt, illness, whatever. That act of "giving" sets up a sense of intimacy and often the affair is off and running.

So let's take a couple where one is the total giver, and the other person may be even balanced not even a total taker. The total giver gradually FORCES the person into becoming a taker, and it prevents the person being pushed into being a taker to develop intimacy by helping the giver spouse.

Weird huh? This is part of why Harley is sooo good. He realized the nonlinear interactions that occur, and that what ones instincts might say is often the opposite of what needs to be done. A well balanced and match couple DO things for one another. They are both giver and taker, and they are graceful in both positions. The realize they need to accept what their spouse will give them, but they must also give their spouse what that spouse needs.

Balance does not mean equality at all. It does not even mean exact balance at any exact moment. But, over time the taker and the giver should be pretty balanced.

Oh, and let's not forget that a constant giver may well develop resentment as the taker gets used to and expects the giver to give.

Just some thoughts. I am sure others will have more. This stuff is really simple on one level, and very nonlinear on another.

Hope this helps.

God Bless,

JL

Ok, I just read through this again...so here is my question. This is not blame - just an attempt to understand. I haven't read buyers, renters, etc yet but I think I get the concepts enough to try & make a link.

Let's say spouse x is all "buyer" - and "giver" - sacrifice after sacrifice, shelving needs, etc. in order to make the R work. At the same time spouse y is pretty darn happy with this set up and is not making sacrifices, doesn't see a need to shelve needs b/c they are being met, doesn't see anything that needs fixing b/c spouse x is keeping everything "neat" to try and preserve the intimacy stage (avoid the conflict). Then eventually spouse x's taker says, screw this, I'm done making everything neat, I want what I want.... and eventually says, I'm "selling", I'd rather just rent - or even freeload - it shouldn't be this much work.

Does it sound like I'm getting the concepts correct? Again - no justification here... just trying to understand, b/c if my tendency is to avoid the drama of conflict by forcing my giver forward - forcing myself to buy!buy!buy!... than I'm setting myself up to get my taker all riled up, yes?

A more balanced situation would be to talk about what had come up that needed to be made "neat" and live with the fact that M is "messy".

Am I on track?

hey lost

here is a description of the "giver" in us....as you are ready, imagine how my H might have become resentful and eventually felt neglected...because he was

The Giver is the part of each of us that is kind and considerate.

It follows this rule: Do whatever you can to make others happy and avoid making others unhappy, even if it makes you unhappy.

the "taker" wants us to make a difference in the lives of others and grows out of our instinct to provide care.

the taker in you says to "love unconditionally. Don't think of what others can do for you; think only what yo can do for others. It is more blessed to give than to receive. Give until it hurts.

your giver wants you to make others happy even if it isn't in your best interest to do so.


here is a description of the taker...when you read it, imagine how awful i was to my H if he was giving all of the time and i was taking

The taker is the part of us that is selfish and overbearing. Our taker tried to make US happy and tried to prevent our suffering.

the takers rule is:do whatever you can to make yourself happy and avoid anything that makes you unhappy, even if it makes others unhappy.

It wants us to get the most out of life and grows outof our basic instinct for love and self-preservation.

your taker wants you to love yourself unconditionally. Don't be used by others; use them instead. be sure there's always something in it for you. get what you need in life, whether or not others want you to have it.

"make yourself happy even if it is not in the best interest of others."

......

and this lost, is why i've been crying my eyes out today

realizing i was right about my neglecting my husband to the point that he was so miserable he found someone to give to him for a change.

it wasn't until i had really already lost him that i figures out what i was doing wrong...and reading the book just confirmed what i thought and gave it names

LS,

You are getting it. Let me offer you a quote that is very relevent to this
You asked/said
yes you are. Worse, if someone is always the taker, the actually can lose love. We need to be needed, and we need to be taken care of. Either of these out of balance is sowing the seeds of discontent.

You are getting it LS, and I think you are starting to see WHY? aren't you?

God Bless,

JL

your "giver" is willing to see you suffer, even to the point of depression, as long as you continue to care about others.

your "taker" is willing to see others suffer if it means that you are happy or prevented from being unhappy.