YES! I AM starting to see "why". Its' all wrapped up together.

But I have fears. My H, bless his heart, has lived an entire life of being cared for by givers on overdrive. I have no idea why he chose me at first... b/c that was NOT me in the very beginning - was not me until he dumped me after year one of dating and I went chasing after him. THEN I got with the program of give give give.

So - I have taught him well. My point is, I'm not sure he really wants to be in a situation where giver/taker balance. He never has been. And, if I understand the concept of buyer/renter/freeloader... I think he might be a well-trained freeloader - not b/c he's anti-committment, but b/c he believes (has said) - it shouldn't be that hard. If you really love someone all the affection and need meeting and agreement should just come naturally - having to negotiate and "work" just invalidates the "love". (his words)

So I am worried. It is very possible that in addition to him having to decide he is willing to do the work to recover from the A, he may also have to be willing to do the work to learn how to be in a healthy adult relationship... and he has always said - that's too much work. (Not a DJ - based on his words). That he wants to be with someone where that first blush of love and infatuation is there all the time, and if it can't be, he wants to move on.

But, I know - my focus is supposed to be on figuring out what got me here - getting a solid grip on the "why"... and right now it's supposed to be on a strategic plan for a cancer center... so, back to the books!

i've never hear or read something that you said about JL.

i re-worded it to how i'm understanding it.....please tell me if this is what you mean

Was this for me or JL?

Yes - I think that is exactly what he was saying... if you are all give (as I was)it pushes the other to be all take - and when you are all take you aren't "needed" and so can't have that intimacy thing going on...
I think - but I am - lost (he he)

lost

i'm no expert as i'm sure is clear but what you've said above sounds right to me.

you sound just like my husband.

giving until your resentment grew and your taker stood up for itself and said "enough"

and i, sadly, sound like your husband

except i have realized my mistakes and have a desire to try again now knowing the hard work that it takes to be a good partner

i'm just so very tired of realizing how much i screwed up.

i've learned that I care about my h enough to want to make him happy too and i think that i understand how i could meet his emotional needs now that i've found out what they are.

big deal

last time i checked, his truck still hadn't pulled up in my driveway so i don't think he's out there looking for me so he can give me that chance.

(but i'm still too much in love with him to stop checking out the window when i think i hear him)

Total reverse sitch here but here's how lame I am... so H calls and I have a table his GF wanted to give away to a poor struggling friend of hers (of course I said yes)... and so he calls & is on his way over...with the GF...so I make sure I've got on something that properly displays my "assets" - ponytail (cause he's all about the cute cheerleader look), lip gloss... sooo lame.

But he did have to make an effort to not "check me out". Not that it made a diff - still left with the GF. And it's not a contest but I sure wasn't going to look like he**!

I think it's great that you are figuring out things about yourself... and I hope that someday your H pulls his head out of his a** and shakes the fog loose. But - even if he does not, you'll know yourself better.

Thing is, it's one thing to own your "stuff" - it's another to whip yourself over it daily. Give yourself today, and then promise yourself that tomorrow you take a deep breath and get on to thinking about what bulbs are going to come up soon in your yard or what color you want to paint your living room, or what color you're dying your hair, or something active and positive and NEW and FOR YOU. K?

you're still wondering about this??

If you are serious, and committed, to wanting your marriage back... then go drop the petition ASAP.

When he asks, just say the truth.
"a divorce is not what I want any more. I dont want to go on record as being the one who wants the divorce. I would like to stay married to you, but have a GOOD marriage for both of us from now on."

Yes - I AM still wondeirng this b/c some of the advice I have rcvd suggests that I should leave him alone until I get myself straight....

JL has suggested I at least talk to him about it, let him know my thoughts. But he has been distant lately - everything I'm doing is just making him feel like he's heard it all before & he has had the GF here every day this week so I'm not "allowed" to talk to him - about anything... she gets upset.

And last night when he came over to get the table, he was very distant - barely looked at me.

So - yes,I'm still wondering. B/c I have strong reason to believe he wil get really angry if I say this now. First - he never retained counsel - he asked me to file, asked me to do everything, he didn't show to the temp orders hearing, or the status docket... it's all me. but he is "counting on me to take care of all of this" - his words.

So, I am worried that if i say, at zero hour, "BTW, I don't want this, I'm pulling my petition", he will freak - and then I'm abck at square one.

I HAVE to talk to him about where I am , and I have been trying, but ever since I started talking about not wanting the DV and wanting to seek counseling and trying to "fix" me and how remorseful I am, etc. he has resisted any serious conversation. And now the GF is here until next Monday, which is about a week before I have to appear at the status docket again.

So yes, I'm still wondering.

p.s. thanks for the affection ideas - I have been trying - calls for no reason, being nice and cheerful - not stressed, trying to hug (he's not letting me), sitting next to him in church, etc.

Ladies,

You have it right, and EVA, you stated it correctly. A giver can FORCE someone to be a taker, and that will kill intimacy, because someone is being forced and because intimacy is developed at least as much by giving as taking.

It is one reason why women were/are often not happy with physical intimacy while men are. In my opinion, it boils down to giving. Women want men to give as they know or intuit that it builds intimacy. In the sexual it is more often the men being GIVEN sex by the way, the men know it and love it. The women will build up resentment if somehow giving is not balanced.

By the same token, most men intuit that even in the sex act, it is important for them to "please" their W's. But, as you can see by Harley's needs list more often that not, what women want is the "intimate" give and take of conversation, support, and things that are not as high on men's list.

A good balance is really necessary. And if you look at it in terms of giver/taker, you can see where and how one relationships and those of others are often headed for trouble.

Don't you worry if you have a male acquaintance that runs around with a "stepford wife"? You know that this is probably not going to work for either of them.

By the same token, don't you worry about a woman, that "demands" that her H do this or that, and march the line?

Seen in the giver/taker paradigm, you will see why you worry.

I will end this by telling you a story. I had two aunts. One was pretty self-centered, but had married a rather well off man. He died leaving her well off. They had no children, and she was sort of a bitter type of person.

The other aunt is one of the most kind, giving, generous, forgiving people you will ever meet. Her H had an affair and dumped her, leaving her little to live on, but she got by and until the end of her exH's live some 30 years she still carried a soft spot for him.

Well the well off Aunt wanted to help her sister. The sister although needing some financial assistence did not want to accept it. She was after all a giver, and you guessed it, the well off aunt had always been pretty much a taker.

I had a long talk with the Aunt that was to receive this gift and explained to her, that her sister HAD to give this money. It was important to her that toward the end of her life, that she do something to "make up" for many of the things she did and did not do when she was younger. I explained to my aunt (the giver) that her taking the money was actually a gift to her younger sister. She expressed how hard it was to take this gift, but I assured her that it was something she would always be glad she did.

She accepted the gift, and her sister was delighted to be able to tell people she had helped her older sister. The young, well off aunt, died suddenly some months later a much happer woman. The older aunt and I still talk about the "gift" she gave her sister before her passing.

My point??? The balance between giver and taker is not as obvious as most people think. Ofter being the taker also means you are a giver as well. Being a giver often means you take as well.

LS, you were a giver to your H because you got something out of it, what was it? You were the giver to your OM, what was it you got out of that. You were also the taker not only from OM, but your marriage as well.

Is this sounding a bit complex?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Now you know why WHY? is not easy to really come with, don't you? AS you see the complexities of all of this, as you see your strengths and weaknesses (and you have both) you will also begin to see your H's strengths and weaknesses. But, more importantly your perspective of them will change. As this happens and you see the cause and effect, you will be able to better handle the balance you seek.

I hope this makes some sense to you.

God Bless,

JL

I think that those people are just being "protective" of a betrayed spouse, and that is clouding THEIR view.

However, he is also a "wayward" spouse now, in that he has been in a relationship before divorcing you. And it's funny how many WS's want the OTHER person to file, and divorce them.

bottom line: this is "marriagebuilders". If you want to (re)build your marriage, you need to stop your petition right away. The longer you wait, the less it looks like you are serious, in my mind.

If you are serious about being committed, there is no way you should be proceeding with divorce.

Sounds like your mind is fairly straight to me now.

be prepared that your husband may choose to refile himself right away.
But either way, I think you could feel better about yourself, that at long last, you would be doing the right thing. you will be stopping your divorce, and doing everything you can to be a good wife to your husband. am I right?

if you are "doing everything you can to be a good wife to your husband", then I can think if no reason why you should feel bad about stopping your divorce proceedings.

PS:

umm.. what exactly are you worried about?


PPS: definately dont hug, or any other affection, if he rejects that type of affection. Just try to find ones that he is comfortable with.

JL,
I thought about all of this a lot last night as I was trying to fall aleep.

In the A, at first - year one - there was no question the same giver thing going on with D4B - and the taker was appeased by FEELING like I was being affirmed through the A... but in truth D4B was not really actively DOING anything to affirm... i was just feeling that way.

But - after year one and D-day one, the A changed such that we probably had a more equal balance of taker/giver. And I think this is b/c it is much easier to be honest with the OP - you really have nothing to lose as they are not "yours" anyway. So you give and you take in a more negotiated, more intentional sense... and you aren't afraid of revealing too much or "dipleasing" the OP with your true self - they are to some degree temporary anyway.

Unfortunately, this balance, this ability to be yourself w/o worry of censure, at least in my case, is the thing that creates this sense of intimacy and connection. D4B knew me MUCH better than H did, or really does - b/c I ALLOWED him to. And, with that kind of "freedom" from my own censure - it is easier to take and give in tandem... it is easier to give what you know is needed b/c you are at the same time taking what you need. And it seems to me this is b/c we (D4B and I) both knew we were "renting". Does that make sense or sound right?

When I thought I was "Buying" H, how could I not give and give and give... I was in for the long haul, and to not do so & fess up to the things that weren't working would have caused drama and worse - H TO BE UNHAPPY WITH ME AND THE M
AND A REFLECTION OF YET ANOTHER FAILURE!!!

So, I keep things pretty and neat with H, and then I decide I need to do some taking and since I can't take from him (b/c he hasn't learned how to really turn his giver on with me), I go take from someone else... and find I don't really care how "messy" things are b/c if OP and I don't "fit" I move on... not "buying". But all of this makes it so that it FEELS like D4B and I have MUCH more in common, a much "easier" R than do H & I.

Meanwhile - what did I "get" out of M? Well, I'm not really sure. I got to control everything. Except when things didn't fit. I got to not be alone. I got told I was "perfect"... I was loved. When I was younger, and not looking for security, and "protection", I got everything. We were inseperable. And everything I had to "erase" to stay "successful" in the M, seemed to be no big deal.

But, when DD was born things shifted HUGELY for me... and as I watched myself "fail" at being a mom, and watched H succeed... while at the same time not feeling like he could "protect" us from the "wolf at the door" it became much more difficult for me to "erase" the things that didn't "fit"... b/c now there was a child. And it scared the sh** out of me.

And, apparently, when I am scared sh******, my instinct is to yearn for protection and approval and affirmation.... and at the same time to call up the toughest, coldest, emotionless parts of myself to prove I can take care of myself.

And those things are strengths while at the same time weaknesses. B/c when you don't need anyone, you don't need anyone.

Techie,
You are right... back at square one... like I moved to square two??!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I guess I will pull my petition - but I am going to talk to him about it first...he will yell. B/c his GF will be vey upset... but, i guess that's ok.
And it's not like he hasn't yelled b4.

We have ACRES of work to do... but I guess I think it would be better to do the work and see where we get.I just really don't feel like we have given it our all - I certainly haven't - and he hasn't either, even though he feels like he did b/c he "took me back". (his words)

I keep reading how you don't go back, you build something new... I'm not sure he is up for "new". For years, all he has said is he "wants what we used to have and if he can't have that he's not interested."

Sigh.

I just don't know how to "make up for" this thing I have done. It seems too big. And if I can't even talk to him 5 out of 7 days a week, much less touch him, email, etc.
Sigh.

All of this understanding... and I can't even get him alone for a cup of coffee to tell him about it - to apologize.

I tried the other night, we were texting... and he said, "I know you are sorry - but I heard that in 03, and here we are. It all sounds too familiar. So I'm turning my phone off." And he's had the GF here every day since.

Sigh. Maybe I need to face the fact that H is no longer interested in the M, in me.

Lostsheep... I will only tell you to stay your course. If you follow Techies advice I believe you will alienate your H even further. And for him to say he is wayward is IMHO, laughable. People dating while separated due to a partners infidelity (and while they are awaiting divorce) is their choice. (I despise WS's and yet I too would have started dating given the circumstances in your situation). Follow that advice and watch how angry your H becomes.... and in my opinion, rightfuully so.
And Techie... read the whole thread if you haven't already done so. She has NO right to interfere in his life without an invite at this point.

MEDC

lost

please withdraw the filing.

DO NOT let him go without a fight

it doesn't matter what you did in the past.

this is TODAY

you are still his wife and it is your desire to remain his wife.


If your husband decides he wants a divorce, he can file himself.

until then, give the message that you want to reconcile.

I know MEDC, I really do agree with the alienation part...
Here is where I am "stuck".
Part of this walk I am on includes getting my R with God back on track. AND, the Bible is clear - H has a right to DV ME b/c of my infidelity, but I do not have that same right (to DV HIM b/c of my infidelity). And so I'm really just stuck in semantics... who is the petitioner.

I know it prob doesn't matter - i just need to be clear - and I've been praying about it and seeking counsel and reading... but I need to be clear, b/c I have been disobedient for a long time and I need to get 'right'.

I appreciate your perspective, I really do.

LS,

I guess I don't really agree with MEDC. You do have a right to try and save the marriage. And no you shouldn't really care if he gets angry right now with you pulling the divorce. If he wants one he needs to DO SOMETHING.

What he is doing is conflict avoiding. He is going to make YOU the bad guy, and you were/are with regard to the affair. You also said something that I think you need to really look at.
You said
You see he doesn't see that he hasn't worked at it. He won't know that if ever until the divorce is final. He is playing the victim and while he was victimized he is NOT a victim now. All this is going down exactly how HE wants it.

I don't agree with MEDC that you don't have the right to ask. I think you do. I think your H has the right to accept his responsibility and tell you NO. Clearly tell you that HE wants the divorce even if you want. I think you need to hear those words although he surely is giving you those messages in what you are posting about your conversations.

You said
You cannot make up for it EVER. That is a fact. What you can do is become a better mother, better woman, and yes a better wife to him or your next relationship. That is really what we are telling you in working on yourself and learning here. You can never go back and make it up. It just doesn't happen. But, you can make the future a good one.



Then you are doing all you can do and that is working on yourself, learning here, and being ready IF he decides to change his mind.


I would write him a letter an apologize. Something permenant that he can hang on to. Something he can read over and over. Write him a letter.


And this statement LS may in fact be the basic truth. You were given a chance in 03 and you torched your marriage. He may never be able to get past that and really who can blame him? Yet, I know you will feel the need to do all you can, so that YOU can step back and realize you did the best you could to show remorse and rectify your mistakes.


This may well be true, but I would still let him know that you want to stop the divorce and work on the marriage. Let him tell you that he wants the divorce at least this one last time. He has not had much time to adjust to the fact that you have stopped seeing OM. But, given that it took 4 years for you to do so, you can see why he is a little gunshy.

My last suspicion is that he feels you are just worried about being on your own. You have finally gotten rid of OM, and now if your H doesn't come back you will be alone, and My guess is that he thinks you are just doing this out of fear of being alone, not love for him.

With that thought in mind, your best chance may well be to let the divorce go through. I don't get the idea that his GF is going to cater to him as you did, nor is their relationship going to flourish even if they marry. Too much baggage on his part, and none of it addressed.

If I could read the future I would tell you what to do. But, I do know that you continuing to post here, read here, offer advice here, will help YOU become the woman you want to be.

It will be your call.

I know you are thinking about all of this, so keep up with your work on yourself.

God Bless,

JL

"And Techie... read the whole thread "

I've read all her threads, even the ugly original one

"She has NO right to interfere in his life without an invite at this point. "

She is not "interfering in his life". she would be stopping her own actions contributing further to the demise of her marriage.

It will still be up to him whether or not HE wants to pursue a divorce. but if HE wants a divorce.... HE should file.

Two things to lost sheep:

1. please use "D", not "DV" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> thats the standard in these parts i think.

2. For years, all he has said is he "wants what we used to have and if he can't have that he's not interested."

That's pretty interesting. Would you describe "what you used to have" as incompatible with MB principles? I'm guessing it wouldnt be. If so, then you might try offering him, "what we used to have, and more"

If you're the petitioner, then everyone-- laypeople, judges, lawyers and GOD see you as the one pulling the plug. If you want to be able to say you did all you could do to restore your marriage, then non-suit your petition. If he chooses to go forward, then that's what happens. At least you'll know you tried. I did the same thing. I filed for divorce and nonsuited two days before it was final. My husband was furious but you know what? We've been in recovery now for going on three years.

You're in a hard place but I think you're beating yourself up with your guilt. Let go and let God.

edited for typo

If you don't want to get divorced, withdraw your petition. Yes, it will probably piss off your WH (yes, I called him a WH because he is committing adultery), but so does exposure, and that didn't kill my M, it saved it. If you want to reconcile, you are going to have to act like the BS and plan A (only a little more gently, a lot more carrot and less stick). Just because you screwed up doesn't mean you aren't entitled to try and save your M. If he wants a D, he can always file himself.

I stand by what I said. You will be making a huge mistake by making him incur costs because of your pulling the divorce petition. In addition, YOU know that you would not be here unless you were dumped by the OM. Your H has not said he wants you back and if he decides later when you are whole again... and if you don't act on your urges to find sf in illicit ways...you can always remarry. Do this, and I would bet a large sum that you will lose him forever.

As far as the ones calling him a WS, I will say just one thing... lol.... yeah, I guess he should have waited 8 years instead of 4! Very funny.

lost

you are his WIFE

it doesn't matter what he has done or who he has been with

all that matters is that you are still married and you are wishing to reconcile...you have the right to do anything to try to make that happen

it's the same concept with a WS

it doesn't matter what you did or who you were with. You were still his wife so you were wrong.

he had the right to want to reconcile and to try everything to make that happen

actually, i wouldn't call your H a "WS"....but in truth, he is still married and SHOULD not be daating. however, given the circumstances of your filing for D, living with the OM, and his not wanting to reconcile, it is understandable that he considered the marraige over.

you BOTH wanted the marriage "contract" to end

now, one of you doesn't. so you have the right to do as any other spouse would

hey! my H is saying the same thing!
"If she wanted to try to save our marriage she should have never have done the things she did for so many years. (neglect him and not meet any of his needs) What right does SHE have now to try to interfere with MY happiness. She should just let the D happen because I'm with someone else and i don't want to be married to her anymore."

and to that I say

"I have the RIGHT because i AM his WIFE....and THAT alone, according to both GOD and the LAW gives me the right."

so LOST

YOU have the RIGHT because you ARE his WIFE....and THAT alone, according to both GOD and the LAW gives YOU the right too.