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I have concerns for the Church. See we can debate back and forth here forever concerning right and wrong. But one thing from my personal experience... the Non denominational church that I attend has over 15000 members in service each week. Based on my past experience in new believer classes, the vast majority of people there are ex Catholics. The Catholic Church in my area are having to close parishes, schools and have trouble filling 1/10th of a Church on a Sunday. Do you think there might be a problem with the message right now?
I am sad to see this happening as many people lose their faith all together instead of finding their way to another church.
Last edited by mkeverydaycnt; 02/13/07 02:19 PM.
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FH...my brother,
I understand your tiredness. And I will always say "follow what the Lord tells you to do." If He wants you to go, then you must go!
You have provided me with many points where it cleared up or helped round out my knowledge of Scripture. Many times, giving an account on my part was helped by you, when you came alongside.
Added to the fact that during my own trials, you were one of the main voices of information in my many-times-confused-state that I could recognize as coming from the Lord.
He has used you in a huge way...
At the end of my life, I hope He can look at me and be proud of His "good and faithful servant." I have no doubt, should you continue your walk with Him, that He will do so with you.
I love that post notonlywords put in about Jesus...because that is exactly what we need to be in these circumstances. It is as if we know the Titanic is sinking, we are entering the lifeboat...and telling those on deck how they can be saved. And their response is one of disbelief ("this boat cant sink") or downright unconcern "Hey honey, isnt the ballroom dancing class in a half hour?").
I know for me, it used to become frustrating to watch those that wouldnt see the danger and "jump into the boat." You try to warn them, show them, plead with them. But in the end...they fall away.
As you know, He!! is a choice. No believer can make anyone believe. All we can do is present the truth and pray that the Lord reaches them in time. Many are already "dead." Their hearts hardened.
So, in the Titanic analogy, all we can do is help save the willing. But in the case of Christ...all we can do is point the willing to Him to be saved.
You have done so for so long with a very rational and factual approach, as Mr. W stated. I appreciate that approach....and am thankful for the words that God has given you.
Who knows? One day, God may call me to leave here and move on to His next calling for me. But until then, I will fight the good fight!
So, while many will miss your words and presence if you do decide to go, know that I do appreciate all that you have done.
And look forward to hanging out with you in Eternity! Make sure, no matter what happens...that you swing by my mansion in Heaven!:)
Standing in His PresenceFBS (me) (48) FWW (41) Married April 1993... 4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B)) Blessed by God more than I deserve "If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
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Remember that after Jesus was tempted, that angels came and ministered to him.
FH, as suggested above and as you said, take some time to listen to God and be ministered to yourself. Recharge your spiritual batteries.
I Cor 15:58 (The Message);
With all this going for us, my dear, dear friends, stand your ground. And don't hold back. Throw yourselves into the work of the Master, confident that nothing you do for him is a waste of time or effort.
FH, you are giving yourself fully to the work of the Master, our Master, the Lord Jesus Christ - and your labor is not in vain or a waste of time or effort. See, those who you have helped are coming here and telling you this. I am telling you this, that even in the short time you have posted to me I have taken your words to heart.
You have a success story, one that I hope and pray and dream that God will give me as well.
Divorced on 3/25/2008 but I have primary legal and physical custody of my 2 kids. Plan A Thread Plan B ThreadEphesians 5:25 - Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her
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I am of two minds about you, FH.
On the one hand, you give very good marriage building advice in general and Marriage Builder advice in particular. You obviously have lived it. I always read you with anticipation the first year I was here. You helped me learn some very important things, including the value of relying on God, forgiveness and patience in dealing with an LTA and false recoveries. You gave me hope even while in the midst of the mess yourself.
On the other hand, I soon discovered a definite anti-Catholic streak in your writings that put me off. Quite often offends me, actually. Things like this:
“But the RCC position is that the "church" is ONLY the Roman Catholic Church and is NOT comprised of anyone outside of the RCC. In fact, the RCC pronounces those outside of the RCC to be "anathema."”
Unadulterated hogwash. Where do you get this stuff? RCC recognizes other Christian churches and also their baptisms, marriages, and even certain ordinations.
“Man, all men including me, are NOT free from potential error. That also, in opposition to RCC doctrine, includes the Pope, both current and all previous Popes. When you say you will “trust the Catholic Church” my response would be simple a question. Will you trust the Catholic Church over the Word of God when they are “in conflict” with each other?”
I am not aware, after much formal study with recognized Biblical scholars, probably more than you have formally studied scripture, of any such conflict in the RCC. I am, though, aware of many such disconnects between Protestantism and The Word Of God. But, Marriage Builders is not the place for my concerns in this area. And Marriage Builders should not be the place for your theological concerns either. I am here to improve my marriage. Not learn from you that my faith is in error.
“There was no “Roman Catholic Church” in the beginning. But there was Jesus Christ and there was the Word of God, the Scriptures. Faith and standing before Holy God is NOT dependent upon any earthly “religion,” it is based solely upon Jesus Christ.”
Christ said to Peter, the first Pope,” And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of ****** shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.” That is unambiguous and requires no interpretation whatsoever for me, FH. Christ also said in the same context, “Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.” This does not just set up Christianity, it sets up a Church, with the express authority to teach.
This anti-religion, anti-church belief of yours also explains to me why you are a, what did you call it, a home-based Christian with no affiliation to any church at all. The more I think about it, the more you seem to me to be a cult of one, FH.
There are so many other similar outrageous anti-Catholic statements I lose track. In fact, sometimes, such as in the following, you are obviously making things up, constructing from whole cloth what you wish to be true but cannot prove. So you just bold-faced claim it as a fact:
“Your “argument” that there have been “changes” in the Bible is a typical charge, but one that is not substantiated by Textual Criticism and the Historical Method applied to examining the Bible documents.”
FH, you have just got to read “Misquoting Jesus, The Story Behind Who Changed The Bible and Why”, by B Ehrman. He is a recognized biblical scholar, started out as a fundamentalist, who will be happy to confront you on this assertion of yours. Even Ehrman’s most rabid detractors say the errors he, and many other experts, have found are probably correct, they just argue for a different interpretation of them.
There is no need to be afraid, FH. Even if some things have been written down wrong, it does not mean the important things are wrong.
You claim to not interpret scripture, but that is exactly what you do. Every proclamation you make about the word of God is your interpretation of an interpretation of someone’s interpretation.
You got to be too much for me, FH.
I suspect you have driven away more than you have drawn in.
So I had to stop posting to you, for my own good.
You beliefs are generally admirable, FH. I see that you live them. And they line up well with my own. For the most part. But there is a dash of bigotry in there somewhere. I pray you will root this bigotry out, for your own good.
Still, all said, I am sorry you are leaving. May God grant you, your family and your wife peace and joy, and may we meet in heaven.
I will pray for you and your marriage tonight,
"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan
"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky
WS: They are who they are.
When an eel lunges out
And it bites off your snout
Thats a moray ~DS
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I think you ARE AN ASSET to this site. Ditto! I think you are very much on target to encourage people to look to their faith and beliefs at a time of very difficult emotions and decisions. I find your own recovery to be one of the best examples of what ones faith and determination can acheive. Here Here! I would strongly encourage you to step back recharge your batteries, and come back when you are ready. Yes, please do. You are needed here, you really are. Indeed! ~ Marsh
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lets be honest here...
I can certainly be wrong here...
but the two major posts that foreverhers was on...(and while his opinion welcome...there is no end to his challenge...
he is not interested in anything but...
"Foreverhers I have seen the errors of my way and you are right...."
that is all that is acceptable here..that is the only way to get past any thing on the posts..
basically till the Catholic belief is obliterated...
that is his goal...
he says faith and work or works and faith or whatever
I say work and faith or faith and work or whatever...
and we will never ever get past that till I say
UNCLE....
so it is very very very difficult to engage in a post about any thing else past that....
BUT here's the thing...
he's deeply involved in two posts about CATHOLIC doctrine..
and appears to be leaving the forum born out of things on those posts.....
and people say it is good for you to defend CHRISTIANITY
when I thought all along Catholics were Christians...
thats what made my mouth drop open...
defend Christianity...
over a post with CATHOLICS?????
or am I wrong and his declaration to leave has
N O T H I N G to do with that...
if so my most respectful apologies
I have never ever debated foreverhers scripture for scripture (except above and will not go a scripture farther...because until I convert to his ways..there is no end....)
but if people are giving kudos for his tireless defense of Christianity......
when talking to Catholics.??
What is it exactly people are saying...
ARK
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ark... to me... you believe in Christ. End of argument. There never WAS an argument. I didn't read all his words about Catholics. I am speaking from my own past with him.
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Protestantism started when Martin Luther declared that we are justified (made righteous) by faith alone. At the time I was leading Catholics out of the Church, I wasn't aware that Martin Luther had added the word alone to his translation of Romans 3:28 in order to prove his doctrine. (The word alone is not found in any contemporary Protestant English translation of Romans 3:28.) I didn't realize that the only place the bible mentions "faith alone" in the context of salvation is in James 2:24, where the idea of faith alone is explicitly refuted: "You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone." This verse was troubling, but I either ignored it, or twisted it to mean something other that what the verse and its context clearly taught. Ark, you completely correct that the word "alone" does not appear in Scripture. But that is not the point. That raises a "tension" in Scripture simply because the entire Word of God is inerrant and inspired and, therefore, cannot be in opposition to itself. So if you truly want to explore this issue, I will do so. But if you simply want to take one "difficult" passage of Scripture and not consider it in the context of all of Scripture, then I'd prefer not to do that. Let's just say that the Scripture ALSO says that salvation is by faith, all by itself, so that no one can boast that they have done anything to earn or merit Justification before God. Therein is a "tension." Paul speaks of Faith "Alone" and James speaks of works being a necessary fruit of Faith. Some interpret James as saying you must have works to be saved and others don't. The logical question is "which is it?" What I hear being argued is the idea that "all beliefs (faiths) are equal" or conversely that "any belief is as good as any other because there is no 'one truth.'" That certainly is the "human way," but it is my opinion that that is not "God's way." What that results in is "why don't we all just get along to get along" and that would seem to deny the purpose of Jesus even coming to earth to do what was necessary for us to BE saved. If Jesus is not necessary, and I don't know of any Catholic or Protestant who would ascribe to that belief, then any "belief" is true and all things simply become "relative." That IS an atheistic position, but it certainly is not a "Christian" position, Catholic or otherwise. In the context of MB, why should anyone be concerned about the "badness" of adultery if it isn't a "wrong idea?" But what makes it a "wrong idea?" If it does not matter what one person believes relative to what someone else (in this example a WS) believes, why should they (the BS) "bother" to try to save their marriage? If everyone in the WS family and circle of friends thinks it's okay to commit adultery simply because they want to, why should a BS risk a "confrontation" on that issue? I would submit that it is because there is a "universal standard" that is being applied regardless of personal opinions on the "rightness or wrongness" of a given belief, in this case the WS's right to believe that adultery is not wrong. The same sort of reasoning applies to faith in Jesus Christ. There IS only one "church" that is comprised of all believers. There are "local assemblies" where believers can fellowship and worship God together, but they are not the "Church," with a capital "C." They are but one "member" of the body. If one "church" claims to be Christian, then it stands to reason that the "standard" that applies to that claim is the Scripture, and only the Scripture, especially if the "thoughts of the leadership" are in conflict with the Scripture. That is why I try very hard to not only state what might be my opinion, but to show why I hold that opinion based upon the Scripture and what God has revealed as HIS truth, regardless of my opinion or "difficulty" with any give idea or passage.
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he's deeply involved in two posts about CATHOLIC doctrine.. The author of the thread saw fit to ask for Catholic and Christian perspective. FH has pointed that truth out several times yet it is being missed. It was NOT just limited to Catholic Doctrine. And FTR, I too believe that Catholics are Christian. I will say however that I know a lot... A LOT of Catholics that do NOT define themselves as Christian. Why... I don't know.
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Ark:
Just letting you know..cause I value and respect you SOOOO much...
I've not read any of Forever's postings about CATHOLICISM..
Even though he specifically speaks about Christianity and SCRIPTURE, I value yours and others' views on SPIRITUALITY just as much...
Wanting to share with you my perspective on this...
I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
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And FTR, I too believe that Catholics are Christian. I will say however that I know a lot... A LOT of Catholics that do NOT define themselves as Christian. Why... I don't know. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> now that's funny... ARK
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But if you simply want to take one "difficult" passage of Scripture and not consider it in the context of all of Scripture,
Why is that difficult...
and don't you think you post pieces of scripture all over the place....
all over the place..
ARK
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he's deeply involved in two posts about CATHOLIC doctrine.. The author of the thread saw fit to ask for Catholic and Christian perspective. FH has pointed that truth out several times yet it is being missed. It was NOT just limited to Catholic Doctrine. And FTR, I too believe that Catholics are Christian. I will say however that I know a lot... A LOT of Catholics that do NOT define themselves as Christian. Why... I don't know. I really don't think that most people's hurt feelings / problems with FH's way of delivery has everything to do with this one particular thread... It's been apparent to me that he has a problem with Catholics in general. I stopped posting to him when I saw, for the second time, him trying to turn a simple question / comment about God /spirituality / Christianity into an argument against Catholicism ~ it had NOTHING to do with that ~ it was very clearly a post on Christianity in general. He turned it into a Catholic bashing thread, and that wasn't the first time I have seen him do that. It's unnecessary and hurtful. I too think he has some great things to say. It's just that what he has to say is now skewed by his obvious distaste for Catholics and Catholicism. It's a huge turn-off and makes me wonder if his thinking can be that intolerant / hurtful because of his own biases, what else can his thinking be skewed on? I have not seen anyone else on these boards rake Catholics over the coals as much as FH has. That's all I'm saying. I have been fine not posting to him or reading his posts (he is not on "ignore" for me or anything), but it appears that he HAS helped alot of people around here ~ and adultery hurts so bad, I think we can use any and all the help we can get. For that reason, I believe it would be good if he stays. It would be really refreshing if he could just leave any references to Catholics / Catholicism out of his posts. He would earn a lot more respect that way, IMO. But he said that he's going to pray about it, and I'm sure he will. God will let him know what to do. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Me,BW - 42; FWH-46 4 kids D-Day #s1 and 2~May 2006 D-Day #3~Feb.27, 2007 (we'd been in a FR) Plan B~ March 3 ~ April 6, 2007 In Recovery and things are improving every day. MB rocks. 
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ark,
You said yourself just a moment ago, you cannot possibly succeed in this.
"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan
"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky
WS: They are who they are.
When an eel lunges out
And it bites off your snout
Thats a moray ~DS
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A LOT of Catholics that do NOT define themselves as Christian. Why... I don't know. I do.
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I know Aphelion..
I am scared I am possessed and cant' stop myself from typing....
ARKie
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MEDC ~ And FTR, I too believe that Catholics are Christian. I will say however that I know a lot... A LOT of Catholics that do NOT define themselves as Christian. Why... I don't know. The term "Christian" simply means someone who follows Christ. Do mean to tell me you know Catholics who don't follow Christ? Then what in the heck are they doing? Who are they following? Why are they even bothering to be "Catholic", then? It's not for the great tasting communion or the free wine they get when taking the body and blood of Christ, I'll tell you that much. Maybe you mean you know Catholics who do not ACT like Christians? If that's the case, then I agree with you.... Just as I agree that there are many "Christians" (of the Protestant persuasion) who don't act like Christians either. I'm not following you here....
Me,BW - 42; FWH-46 4 kids D-Day #s1 and 2~May 2006 D-Day #3~Feb.27, 2007 (we'd been in a FR) Plan B~ March 3 ~ April 6, 2007 In Recovery and things are improving every day. MB rocks.
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5228 posts on these boards..
I bet under ten with the exception of today when I hit my boiling point...
but definitely under twenty...
and closer to ten
were the amount of posts that I identified on here any connection to the Catholic Church...
so "THIS" in not my thing or my bag by any means....
and I certainly have been no thorn in foreverhers side and his beliefs
he's welcome to them...
an his posts help many....
but the antiCatholocism...(though as someone pointed out...I should feel good cause it's spread to others as well)
is just over the top...
especially when loosely connected to the tireless defense of CHRISTIANITY
ARK
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well I am a Catholic follower of Buddha myself <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
Last edited by Pepperband; 02/13/07 03:08 PM.
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can I rub your belly while reading my horoscope...
whoroscope??
ARKie
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