Myschae,
Yes, you are very insightful. It is the same conversations we've had a number of times, without getting a satisfactory result. I just started reading a book "Difficult Conversations" for a class I'm taking but I think it's going to have personal applications too.
I probably shouldn't call it negotiations b/c I don't think you can negotiate something that one of the partners isn't fully on board with. Negotiating some agreement on SF and putting some frequency on it would seem to violate the policy of joint agreement and I know it would eventually cost me in the love bank. She doesn't want to negotiate frequency. I would just like not to be rejected when the time seems right and it seldom seems right for her.
We don't argue that she has to get F from SF, although I like it when she does. She and I both know how to get there, sometimes it just doesn't happen and she'll stop and isn't encouraged to try again anytime soon. She knows what she likes and doesn't like to be disappointed if SF comes up short - sounds so selfish but that's what it is. I don't want to get into physical details but it seems to me that if you unconditionally love someone, then you wouldn't consistently reject them. I've nearly stopped making advances b/c they aren't received or reciprocated, even after working on her ENs. The few times I have recently, rejection starts the whole frustration cycle again. I hope for better than this from a woman I love and desire.

Thank you for your thoughtful reply, I do need to change the conversation, I think I have to speak from the heart (again) how important my #1 ENs are to me and how I see SF as a barometer of our M.

V/r,
No Way

This confuses me because I always thought the whole point of negotiations was figuring out what to do when both partners weren't fully on board with something. I mean, if you were both on board with SF then you wouldn't even need to have a conversation, would you? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


The POJA states: "Never do anything without the enthusiastic agreement of both spouses."

The negotiation is to figure out what you can both be enthusiastic about. The negotiation, essentially, IS POJA.


What do you think she meant by her statement?


I just don't see this as the easiest path (which is fine... sometimes the easiest path isn't best) because when the time 'seems right' to you -- but doesn't seem right to her then what is she supposed to do? This doesn't seem to address the "both partners on board" issue you mentioned earlier.


I guess this confuses me because on the one hand, I'm hearing that she doesn't expect/want/think SF can happen for her because of <whatever reasons>. On the other hand, she's disappointed because of it?


I think the problem is with the "uncondionally love" part of the sentence. MB teaches us that marital love isn't unconditional -- it is based on a love bank that can go up and down. Marital love is based on a whole lot of behaviors over time (LB's drain the love bank, need meeting fills it).

I don't think your wife loves you unconditionally. I'm not sure it's healthy TO love your spouse unconditionally because if there were no conditions then it wouldn't matter what your spouse did (affairs, crimes, etc) you'd just keep on loving him/her anyway.

It sounds to me like your wife is at least willing to try to find some way for you both to be happy -- and that's a definite sign of love. But, measuring her 'love' against a standard of "unconditionallness" is probably putting her in a no-win position.


As has been stated on this thread, it might not be your ability to meet her EN's that's causing the problem. It might be LB'ing behavior on your part. I am ***NOT*** saying that's the case .. I'm just saying that working harder on her EN's when that hasn't been working might not be the right way to go. Maybe there are some LB's you're unaware that you do or something. Or, maybe there are some outside problems (physical, hormonal) problems present (it doesn't necessarily even have to be about you).


Well, what do you think she should do if you want SF and she just really doesn't want to? What action would you like her to do that wouldn't be a rejection of you?


I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that she's probably heard you say these things before (you clued me in with your "again"). What might bring new things to the conversation is if you'd talk, specifically, about how you want to be treated. If she's not in the mood for sex (or not willing to have sex) is there anything she can do differently that wouldn't feel like rejection to you? Talk about solutions that would help you feel better -- in all cases -- not just when she's willing/able to say "yes" but also how she can handle it when she needs to say "no."

Mys

Oh, and one more thing...

I just want to throw this out for you to think about.

I think it's important that you're honest about how you feel about not having your #1 EN's met. I do think you might want to leave off the 'barometer of our M' part, though.

Here's why:

When you have marital difficulties, it's really, really demoralizing if your partner decides to use as a measure the one area in which you are essentially 'failing.' It really creates the impression that nothing else you do is appreciated or important to your partner.

I think if I heard that, I'd probably be thinking of all the other things I do in the relationship and how ungrateful you sound about all of it because you aren't getting this one need met.

So, tell her how important it is for you that this need is filled because of how you feel about the relationship -- but I'd leave the 'judging the marriage based on this area (that she's failing in, by the way) out of the discussion. (Assuming, of course, that the rest of the relationship is relatively good.)

Mys

Mys,
You've given me alot to digest and think about, which I definitely will do and I appreciate your thoughts.
Yes, she would see it this way and I can see how this would be viewed as negative and selfish. She's not failing in other areas of the M and in fact is a good partner, except for the area we're discussing, she's my best friend.
I will send a more thoughtful reply but wanted to send a quick thanks for the perspective.

V/r,
No way