Hi, Still- HI, Jayban-

That's Good neighbor...and yeah, I thought she was...I'm sure that I'll have to make new friends b/c thy're not going to see the abuse...we were SO great on the surface...

Op were shocked when I exposed b/c they NEVER thought that STBX would do that to me...he spoke so highly of me...the kids mean the world to him...blah, blah, blah...

I honestly think that this is what he wanted he just didn't have the balls to do it...he's the one that kept telling me if I wanted a D to just do it and stop looking for things to b!tch at him about...that I would never be happy...etc...

Well, the last time he said this I said if I wanted a D I would have followed through with it back in OCt....you knwo when he promised to do whatever it took for as long as it took to get us right...that lasted about a month...and he went back to talking to OW...

Refused to do NC letter...wouldn't talk to her for about a month...then we got into the conversation with his M for Thanksgiving and she was telling me that I was using my Physchology on him...that really came from him...I was trying to control him by wanting NC, and him not to go to that Store...

I felt so sick...at one point I thought I was going to throw up...I would stop the conversation and go for a walk and he would tell me that I was just trying to run away from my problems...Lord knows how many times I heard that...I actually believes it...

Then, Christmas he Ced OW, I found out...here we are 11 months after D-day and I'm still fighting NC...

Wondering the whole time what I could do better...if I learn this and I do this, I'll be the lighthouse...well, no matter what I did, I was still at fault...I started to see that he was rebelling, like he was trying to punish me...

When we talked I didn't feel understood and felt that nothing had been resolved...I could even tell you what he would go for and what he wouldn't before I even presented it to him...my main goal was no to make him mad...

Of course, I understand now that I can not make him mad...I understand that, still hard to know it...I watch what I say with the kids b/c I use to say You are making me mad and now I say I'm getting mad...I still mess up once in a while, but I try to caught myself and reword what I'm saying...

Anyway, I'm not going to qualify that email from GN...I don't see the point...I don't owe her an explanation and I think that even if I explained it wouldn't make a difference...STBX will say whatever he can to make me look like the scum of the earth...I'm turning the kids against him...whatever...I have to let go and let God on this...

He'll handle it, I'll be taken care of...I'm really at peace with myself...I understand what I can do and what I can't do in this sitch...

I've even considered not telling STBX why I left b/c he knows...he knows the dirt that he's done...he knows that I don't approve of his behavior...I've talked my head off for months and where has it got me...nowhere in my M...

Personal recovery...now, that's been good!

CJ, I'm reading Verbally Abusive Relationship...OMG, I'm in that book...I see why you said it was an eye opener...LA is the one that recommended it to me and I'm very happy to be reading it...it clears up so much and it's a shame OP don't understand...

Well, thanks guys...Oh, A and para out today, guess I'll find out tomorrow!

That's a disrespectful judgement.

You cant read his mind. you DO NOT KNOW, that he "knows".

yes, he's heard the words.
That doesn't mean he really understands them.
That doesn't mean that you have made it clear, "ok, we have 30 'issues' between us, but these 5 are the 'dealbreakers' for me".

edited PS: I put this in "DJ" terms.. not because you neccessarily care about how he feels.. but because I think that the MB philosophy implies that DJ'ing ANYONE, isnt a positive thing to do. Stopping disrespectful judgements of other people, is a thing most beneficial to yourself, as a positive pattern of life going forward.

It isn't Rin's job to be understood.

It's HIS job/choice to understand or not understand.

It's NOT Rin's responsibilty to MAKE him "get it".

~ Marsh

More often than not, that's exactly the case. Guess who is usually the most surprised?



I said that...once...and I'll regret it forever. So, I don't think he really did want that. But I wasn't wayward like...



...this. He didn't get it, he doesn't get it.



I can liken my Plan A reactions from my WW the very same way.



Right on.



Yes, he does know. He knew the moment you were lost to him, and he knows why. I knew the moment my WW was lost to me, and I knew immediately what the "top 5 reasons" were. After Plan Aing and self-reflection, I knew them all. I didn't need anyone to tell me. If anything, it's respectful to let a person figure it out on their own. When my wife spoke about her reasons, I listened. They only re-inforced what I already knew. She didn't mention the minor things, I'm the one who thought of what minor changes I would make.

At this point, you have to consider yourself STB Divorced. You are divorcing. You owe your Still Wayward H nothing. You owe yourself everything and nothing less. Follow your heart and do what you think is best, what you can live with. If you want to tell him why, then do it. Maybe send him a letter after the D is final, that's your choice. If you don't want to, WE SUPPORT THAT 110% because it's your life to live.

Again, your WH/STBXH knows why you are leaving. Even in his fogged out brain he realizes that. Wait a sec, let me re-emphasize that: he KNOWS.

The time for caring whether or not you "DJ" him has come and gone. It's time for respecting YOU.

We all respect you.

God Bless,

it is her responsibility to give him a fair chance to, however.

Marsh, you're female. i'm male.
you "get it". you think he should have "gotten it" a long time ago.

I'm telling you that, as a male, he won't "get it", until it is presented to him in certain ways.

Rinder has not done that so far, that i'm aware of. In her whole 11 months of "trying so hard"... she didnt try this.

One of the reasons a "plan B" letter is so important in this kind of thing... is that most men need a list. A concrete, written down, clear, list.

In her 11 months of trying, i haven't heard that she ever did this. She avoided the direct confrontation with him, that most men NEED, to really get things through to him.
She chose to avoid a plan B type situation, specifically to avoid confronting him.

Now, if she choses not to do this, ... that's her choice.
But she should not lie to herself about it, to fog herself into not doing it. That's just wrong. For one thing, because then it isnt a "choice" any more.


Rinder, i apologise for probably sounding harsh on you again. I'm not trying to do that. I'm just trying to shine some light on "what has been tried, vs what has not".


Note to Jayban: you're comparing your self-reflection and awareness as a BS on why your WS left, to how a WS should be self-knowlegable about why a BS is leaving??? This seems to me, to be... illogical, at best. Since when are WS's beacons of clear thinking?

Direct confrontation results in Domestic violence...each time it became worse...

he was told countless times that there needed to be NC for life, I asked for a cell number changed, MC, IC...

I gave him Joseph's letter...

What else would you like Techie?

You can believe whatever you please, Techie.

I choose to believe that men and women are equally capable of understanding things.


LMAO!!!!!

Aren't you the guy who kept starting "clean threads" b/c others kept urging YOU to plan B your WW?

Rin is done w/ her M. She doesn't need to Plan B him.

And THIS Techie....



Is a DJ!!!!!

~ Marsh

They are not clear thinkers, but they are not stupid either. They just make very poor, selfish decisions. Doesn't mean they don't lie awake at nights sometimes...



Says who? This is Rinder's life, not ours, and our place in it is to help her and support her in anyway we can. I support her decision 1000%. Why?



That's why.

It was his responsibility to NOT throw away his marriage and family for another WOMAN. If he was interested in finding out WHY she left him all he had to do was what she explicity asked him to do: NO CONTACT. He understood that, did he not? He made his own choices. Rinder has no control over the choices her WH makes.

He failed to do that, he is the one who failed to show actions consistent with someone interested in remaining married/recovering this marriage.

Rinder doesn't owe him anything. She is divorcing, she is accountable to God, family and herself. She can hold her head high with her efforts to save her family and her marriage. Let's not tarnish that courageous effort in anyway, we ALL have suffered from second-guessing ourselves in every little decision we make on our own journeys. I'm loathe to create more for people.

Rinder does not have anything to prove to anyone.
It is the WS who has something to prove.

Logically.

i hear the need to protect yourself. I recognize that this is potentially dangerous. Do you think where "direct = face-to-face", has a higher violence risk than "direct = letter" ?


Speaking from my own experience; it makes a difference, if you write it down, and say, "this is why I am divorcing you".

My wife told me she wanted various things. However, she never said in clear terms (clear enough to me, a male, at least) , "I want these things, or i will divorce you".

They did not register fully with me, until she moved out.
I was not willing to do the things I am now willing to do, before it was made clear to me what was on the line.


If she HAD stated things in those terms, instead of just giving up, and moving out.... I think we could have had a opportunity to more fully negotiate, and my children could have been spared these 8+ months of separation.

It makes a difference.

I believe this will be the last thing I have to say on this particular argument, but Techie, I would ask if you would please consider something. I am a female and I believe I do "get" what you're trying to say, namely that men don't "guess" well or understand "hints"--and in a very generalized sense, I think that's true. But we are talking apples and oranges here. YOU are a fairly intelligent, fairly mentally healthy adult male. I do not believe that the same can be said about Rinder's WH, and I don't say that as a DJ--I say that after reviewing facts for a long time.

Let's put this another way. If her WH was a "typical" male person in an A, he would be DEEPLY fogged in, and your methods of being explicitly clear and writing a letter ITEMIZING what it would take to return might make sense. But what I have come to believe we are dealing with here is a WH who is also mentally an "abuser" or a "controlling person." By "abuser" or "controlling person" what I mean is that from everything that I can observe, he believes in getting POWER OVER someone (he wins) versus mutual power in an equitable, mutual relationship. See the difference? You and I and Rinder think (very broadly) of the man and the woman in the relationship SHARING power and both having some measure of power. She has power over XYX and He has power over ABC maybe...or they share power over the whole relationship, family, home, etc. This is a MUTUAL model of power. Rinder's WH has a model that states that one party must have POWER OVER the other. One party overpowers the other, and forces, and defeats the other. In his model, HE has the final word, he holds the reins over the relationship, family and home, and She is not a co-equal but sort of viewed more as a possession to be used in her designated role. She is supposed to do this and say this and allow this and clean this and have this sex...and that is her role. And if she breaks out of that role or does not want to do that role or even says she WILL NOT do that role, then he does not think, "How can we cooperatively work this out so that we are both, mutually satisfied?" His is a POWER OVER model, so he thinks, "What do I have to do to force her back into her role?"

Let's use anal sex as an example. Now, I do not want to debate here whether or not anal sex should or should not be done, but rather to demonstrate the differences of approach between the two power models. In MUTUAL POWER, let's say that the lady just loves anal sex and the guy is not as cool with it. She would respectfully ask him...he would respectfully decline...she would ask if there was a way he would consider it...he would say he might be willing to start with some sort of fancy oil...she would accept the fancy oil and maybe ask for a little something...and they would both, mutually agree and both mutually be satisfied with the result. Worst case scenario, she would ask...he would say no...and she would ask if there's any way he'd consider it...he'd say no....and she would respect his limit and stop bugging him about it or ask if he would consider it once a year or something. See? Now in the POWER OVER model, she would demand anal sex...he would say no...she would punish and scream...he would say he didn't like it...she would demand and threaten...he would say, "Well maybe just to end the yelling"...and then she would use that against him...then he'd say "I really don't like this!"...and she would call him names until he gave in again...and he would feel enormous resentment...and she would ridicule him for being a wimp. See?? It wouldn't make any sense to tell her, "Here's EXACTLY what you need to do to repair the relationship with me after you ridiculed me for not wanting anal sex" because in her mind, SHE WON. The idea is to get POWER OVER.

Soooo...as I said, I'm not trying to be disrespectful of him, but rather to give a name to what I have observed. If he does have a POWER OVER model, then he does have the option to realize that is his model and change so that he learns the MUTUAL POWER model...and then practice doing it that way. It will not come naturally to him. The trouble is, usually a POWER OVER kind of person doesn't really see that they have that kind of model, and if someone does break out of their role, then they go to tactic #2: play the victim. This often drives the person back to their role with guilt--because in real life, the MUTUAL POWER person does want to have it work out and has tried to communicate the POWER OVER/MUTUAL POWER difference--but the POWER OVER person didn't hear it!!

Anyway, as I said, this will be the last I say about this argument. Techie, your thoughts and suggestions are sound if we were dealing with a mentally healthy, "normal" fogged-in WS...but we're not. The issues are deeper than Man/Woman "be clear" kinds of issues. And I do "get it"--women often think they are being clear when actually they talk in word pictures or examples or hints...

Your faithful friend,


CJ

CJ, I certain acknowlege that what you could say, may be true.

for my part, I see cycles of his behaviour. there are cycles of very benign, positive consideration... and then cycles of selfishness, and sometimes, control. Although for the most part, I see his behaviour more as exerting control over HIMSELF. Maybe I missed something, but the A.SF was one item with asking for change in rinder... however, as far as I recall, the "violent" flareups, were for the most part, nasty reactions to Rinder trying to change HIS behaviour. am I recalling correctly?

PS: yes, he may believe that "the man in a marriage should be in charge". I think that is a borderline case of the "controlling person" type that you describe. but I believe that they are different.
One, is a belief in a particular marital structure. One, is a more ingrained, "direct" personality trait.

From his expressed unhappiness with "the new rinder [that actualy stands up for herself and asks for things", it certainly sounds like he at minimum, believes in the "male dominant" style of marriage. However, depending on where he derives that image of marriage, it may be more easily adjusted (by him), than if it is just that he has an overwhelming urge to control.

Again, this is a particularly personally relevant issues to me; because my wife has complained that I "try to control her", for years now. When she described me to her online "friends", I'm sure that's all they heard about me. but for the most part, it isnt true.
In some areas, it actually was... but it wasnt "Because I'm a Controlling Person".. it was because I believed what she was doing was harmful, either to our marriage, or to her, or to me. I've been working on figuring out ways to let it go, if it's about her. Not sure what to try, when the issues are about "us", or "me" yet.

Techie, please remove yourself from my thread...

I am uncomfortable...

I am sure that you are a wonderful person in your own right and am posting out of care and concern; however, I read your posts and hear you attacking me and my choices...

I chose to ignore his behavior and he was still demanding me to do things saying that I dion't cook for him, to this or that...what CJ explained is True in my sitch...

He would say these things about me and I would be shocked wondering "How on earth can he say these things to me?"

I hear that you are saying that I should have done this and I should have done that...there are alot of should haves in life...I'm cutting out the should haves...I'm doing...

I can only reflect and concentrate on today...TODAY I am doing the RIGHT thing for ME...not to mention my children...

The more I improved myself and started setting boundaries...the more open and honest I was with him the more he used that against me...

Thank you Techie!

On a different note:
L asked me last night why I was smiling last night...I said that I was happy...he asked why I was happy I said that I really didn't have a reason...I just was...

For L to see this and point it out to me, was awesome, I thought to myself...God, you really haven't smiled in a long time...

OH, and a friend called me today...She saw STBX, he told her that I wouldn't have any problems with him if I didn't keep the kids away from him...she told him that she didn't think that was going to be a problem...said he acted like he wanted to talk more but she left him there saying that she had to get back to work...

She'll like an adopted mother to me...

Jayban and MArsh- Thank you so much for helping to cut back the confusion...

I know that STBX knows what was needed...LA's voice would play in my head..."Don't repeat yourself, he knows!" I have a clear conscious...I feel that I have done my part and he has clearly said that he doesn't like me...

He's made his choice...and I've made mine...I refuse to be with a batterer, an adulter, and a lair. Now that I know what I am dealing with I chose not too...I am clearing out the drama in my life...making way for peace and happiness...

I'm looking forward to a life with just me and my boys and I'm sure that I will have to deal with more threats from STBX...but I'm stronger today...

CJ, thank you for explaining the model...I just finished reading pg 56 and that IS SO ME! You said that his book is enlighting and I'm reading about myself...

I thought that it was PA behavior but it's VA...I have thought that I'm just not good with OP, but did great at work...I've wanted to change jobs but I would earn more than WH and he would convince me that this is where I needed to be...it's convenient for the kids and I'm making good money...

Of course, he never did it in front of people...I mean I could repeat exactly what he said and he would tell me that he didn't see that! I know I heard him correctly but I would think that my hearing was off...

I've talked about VA with him before...I've talked about DV with him...I was Crazy! I was making things up. Come on when you tel your W and oldest son that you are not raising any F***ing pansies!" Come ON!

I try not to kick myself for not seeing this stuff sooner! I would ask him not to curse while talking to me, that didn't happen either!

I'm sorry that you feel I am "attacking" you. My intent was to mention that there are things you have not tried. Rather than trying to imply "you are Wrong", I was attempted to mention options that you do not seem to have tried.
Well, that, and I do believe that someone is owed a clear explanation of why they are being divorced.
(I believe that your not giving him that, may be partly why you yourself picked this subject, "Why Do I feel guilty?")

But I shall respect your wishes, and not post further on your thread.

Two things:

#1--Techie just so you know, I did not feel there was an argument between you and I, but rather more of a debate going on in the midst of this thread. AND I was not going to write any more just because I do not choose to add fuel to a fire. If people are going to disagree on a thread--I just choose not to participate in that.

#2--Rinder, I know how you feel. It's really hard to "convince" people who have not been there what was happening. In a way, it doesn't make sense, and a good part of the reason that it doesn't make sense is because we (spouses like you and I) spent so much time buffering the abusive responses to the outside world. If you are anything like me, WH would be absolutely ABUSER abusive, and when you said something about talking to someone about it, he'd say, "WE are a couple! This is private, just between you and I! No one else needs to be involved in this!" and so you hid it--or tried to--and you did such a good job that now people say, "He could not possibly be that way."

Rind, trust me--THEY DON'T KNOW. They were not behind the closed doors and they do not know what went on in the privacy of your home. You were there and you do know. You are not making this up or crazy or making a mountain out of a molehill. For the first time in your life, you are thinking clearly and accurately. I understand why you second-guess yourself--it's natural. But you are not crazy NOR are you making this up.

Here's a funny story. I used to tell my exH things that he had said to me the night before in an argument, and he would look me in the eye and say, "You must be crazy. I would NEVER speak like that to you" and for quite a while I thought there must be something wrong with my memory. Soooo...I began to write it down as it was occurring. My exH SNATCHED those notes--shredded them--burned them--anything to get rid of them because it would be concrete proof that I wasn't making it up. So one night, without his knowing, I VIDEO TAPED an argument. Watching that argument hours later, I could see all the times I tried to be assertive and honest, and he would lash out...I tried to disengage and he would pursue...it was clear as day. But when I showed him the video, confident that he would finally SEE that at the very least part of it was him (cuz here it was...in black and white! Proof!)...know what he said??

"How did you do that?"

"Huh? Do what?"

"Doctor a fake tape so fast without my knowing about it. Because I never acted like that and you somehow made doctored this tape just to make me look like the bad guy."

SERIOUSLY!!

So, Rinder--I love ya, but somehow in there I think our WH's actually do believe we are crazy and making it up--that it's ALL US and could not possibly be them. They don't see it (even when confrontred with irrefutable evidence).

Your faithful friend,


CJ

CJ-

OMG...I can't write that big enough! I got the notes out of the house, for evidence! LOL I heard the same things...I thought he's getting so mad that he doesn't remember what he's saying! And it hurt like heck...to hear these things come out of his mouth and to think "THIS IS REALLY WHAT HE THINKS OF ME!"

It was like he was hidding his true feelings until he got mad!


Same thing here, that's why HE didn't need to go to a MC...that was putting our business out in the street...that's why I started having a problem covering for him when he would lie to someone and drag me into it...

I'm telling you...I have searched for SO long trying to figure out what the heck was going on with us...and "I" have nailed it and I feel so much better...

I mean I hurt that I'm choicing to end my M, I would love for him to change but the statics of that happening, well, I'll have a better chance of winning the powerball or lottery...

I feel so much better being able to pinpoint what the problem is...


OH, OMG...I would talk to Frog and LA about leaving and putting myself in a safe place...and he would stop me from leaving...I got to leave the house one night and he was driving around to all of our friend's houses, told me on my cell that when he found me that he was going to make a scene...of course, I didn't want this to happen...so, I agreed to come home if he left me alone...

I parked my car in the front yard in case something happen and went inside...well, he moved it and put it in front of his truck...I was so upset...I locked the spare room door...

Oh, God, I could go on...OH, CJ, you are my angel! having you to relate too is soooooo God sent! Thank you!

Rinder,

Just sending my support and a quick 2 cents.

I can see some of Techie's points, but I don't know your entire situation (I've only been around a month) and I feel that you have made an honest effort to save your marriage and you did it for a very long time. There will always be things that you could have done and didn't, so don't let that bother you. You gave it he// and it didn't pan out.

You have nothing to regret and nothing to be ashamed of. There are things about your story that I do know that demonstrates the level of sellfishness and control your WH contains. You must have a level of safety and respect in your M to continue and I do not believe it exists for you.

Stay strong and know you are supported. You diservedly have a clear concious and you should be proud of your efforts.

I wish you all the best. Good Luck

Rin, I support your decisions here. You have made HUGE strides in self improvement and have been proactive in trying to achieve recovery in your M. You have decided on D, which is a very tough decision, not lightly made. I'm very proud to help you, and support you. Everyone here relies on MB success stories. I believe those stories INCLUDE those who's M's ended and who moved on with dignity and self awareness, and helped to create a safe, happy, environment for their family. You will be a part of the success stories that are told here.

Techie, support is what people need here. I have not seen ONE post from you to Rin that is truly supportive. DOMESTIC VIOLENCE is nothing to CONFRONT in any way. Please, don't assume that ALL men and women are the same. Not all men are like yourself, as not all women are like me or Rin, or any other for that matter. Rin has chosen D, that's it, no Plan B.

Rin HAS done ALL that *SHE* can. Her WH has remained wayward, and I believe that once Dday occurs, the BS has every right to end the M. This is Rin's choice, however difficult it may be for her, she has MADE it. NOW, she needs support in her efforts toward DIVORCE.

By all means, if you support Rin's decision to divorce, and your knowledge can help her in THAT way---write THAT to her. Her interest in RECOVERY is for HERSELF and her remaining family, her sons...

((Rin))

I'm on your side. I believe that if Techie had a sister who had suffered domestic violence like me, he would understand your choices better.

You are doing the right thing.

Be safe.

Keep your kids safe.

I meant to say that the ABUSER does not need to be confronted face to face. The Abuse needs to be rectified, whether that be a repentant person willing to get help to change their ways, or removing yourself from the abusive situation.

S4B,

I believe I understand where Techie was coming from. Plan A goes to Plan B...so his asking about a PBL, not a confrontation, followed MB advice. Techie didn't see that Rin was choosing Plan D, instead.

And I believe you, Rin...that WH knows. He's known along. You've been explicit in your statements.

I think Techie was picking up on your actions. The surrendering to win on contact.

You have a great symbol I would like to highlight for your future benefit...

You chose to accept contact as long as it was in a cup which didn't show contact. I hope in the future you make a different choice in your life. To not accept being lied to as a coping mechanism.

What we've shared here on MB, I see as living skills, not coping skills. Living in truth. I support your choice to divorce instead of Plan B.

I respect your choices. My intent was to show you all of them. Each act of abuse which you chose to not act on...not call the police about, was yours. Those were choices you made at the time to not live in truth...to get in the way of natural consequences. I know you know better now.

Part of what you're experiencing with others not believing your WH acts in this manner is half yours...you helped to hide it...by not enforcing reasonable boundaries. For your own false payoff. Doesn't mean you could make him act differently, nor that he acts abusively.

You have been my concern...not WH. Same for choosing your perception...feeling attacked...which is what you chose to perceive...your half...and I have no idea if Techie was attacking or not...his opinions are his own.

What I saw was care...effort...and sharing his perception. And I remember how difficult it was for me with your surrendering to win choices, so I can more easily understand how Techie could miss this wasn't Plan B...there is no way back to share with WH.

This is divorce.

That's really scary to others who are struggling with their own choices, their deep desire to have it laid out...to have that truth...to know there is a way back, specifically.

Techie relies on statements...which I know you've made. Your actions in acceptance belied them. That's what happens when you aren't aligned with your own truth and living from it.

I understand. This is your journey...and you are loved. Prayed for and lifted up. I know you know that. You also know I repeat a lot.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA