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*wave*

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I think I'm going to have to treat this like my meeting...take what I need and let the rest..


but how are you going to judge "what is good vs what is bad"?
One of the reasons you said you're seeing a counsellor... is because your "picker" is bad.
That doesnt just apply to "picking men".

Quote
I don't need to revisit all that stuff...

so, you dont want to try another counsellor, becuase you dont want to go through that again.


consider what you might tell someone else, if they were seeing a marriage counsellor, and told you the following"

"well, this counsellor doesnt seem to be very 'pro-marriage' to me... but I dont want to go through all the muck of my marriage with another counsellor, so i think i'll just stick with this one, and take what I like from it".


yes i know this isnt about marriage counselling :P but I think that the same general principles in picking a MC, also apply to an IC. At best, its probably going to be a waste of your time, if you pick one that is "half good". At worst, they're going to do more long-term harm to you, than good.



ok, off to lunch!

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One of the reasons you said you're seeing a counsellor... is because your "picker" is bad.
That doesnt just apply to "picking men".

I think that it does apply to men...I know that I see things in a good light...what I need help with is boundaries...

Quote
so, you dont want to try another counsellor, becuase you dont want to go through that again.

no, that's not what I said...I don't need to revisit my childhood sexual abuse with her...I have had thearpy for that...I have other issues that I would like to talk about since then to present...

I don't think that I have had the chance to get a feel for her techie TBH...I would like to give her a chance before I haul @ss...

I guess it's a good thing that she was a referral and not someone I picked out of the phone book! And by chance, if I don't get along with her I will be moving to her partner...


A loving heart is the beginning of all knowledge.
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:::running in the door, panting, clutching a bag:::

I got it!! I finally got it!!

Oops. Took me a lot longer than a quick errand to find the link to the narcissist post...all day, as a matter of fact.

This was brought to us by Slimjim from Dr. Sam Vaknin at this website: http://samvak.tripod.com/msla.html Slimjim did the bolding and the red. I took out the linked promos.


The highlighted parts are the ones that I had observed lots of behavioral evidence pointing towards.
----------------------
THE SOUL OF A NARCISSIST
THE STATE OF THE ART

The Essay requires acquaintance with professional terms.

We all love ourselves. That seems to be such an instinctively true statement that we do not bother to examine it more thoroughly. In our daily affairs – in love, in business, in other areas of life – we act on this premise. Yet, upon closer inspection, it looks shakier.

Some people explicitly state that they do not love themselves at all (they are ego-dystonic). Others confine their lack of self-love to certain of their traits, to their personal history, or to some of their behaviour patterns. Yet others feel content with who they are and with what they are doing (ego-syntonic).

But one group of people seems distinct in its mental constitution – narcissists.

According to the legend of Narcissus, this Greek boy fell in love with his own reflection in a pond. In a way, this amply sums up the nature of his namesakes: narcissists. The mythological Narcissus rejected the advances of the nymph Echo and was punished by Nemesis. Consigned to pine away as he fell in love with his own reflection – exactly as Echo had pined away for him. How apt. Narcissists are punished by echoes and reflections of their problematic personalities up to this very day.

Narcissists are said to be in love with themselves.

But this is a fallacy. Narcissus is not in love with himself. He is in love with his reflection.

There is a major difference between one's True Self and reflected-self.

Loving your True Self is healthy, adaptive, and functional.

Loving a reflection has two major drawbacks:

1. One depends on the existence and availability of the reflection to produce the emotion of self-love.

2. The absence of a "compass", an "objective and realistic yardstick", by which to judge the authenticity of the reflection. In other words, it is impossible to tell whether the reflection is true to reality – and, if so, to what extent.

The popular misconception is that narcissists love themselves. In reality, they direct their love to other people's impressions of them. He who loves only impressions is incapable of loving people, himself included.

But the narcissist does possess the in-bred desire to love and to be loved. If he cannot love himself – he must love his reflection. But to love his reflection – it must be loveable. Thus, driven by the insatiable urge to love (which we all possess), the narcissist is preoccupied with projecting a loveable image, albeit compatible with his self-image (the way he "sees" himself).

The narcissist maintains this projected image and invests resources and energy in it, sometimes depleting him to the point of rendering him vulnerable to external threats.

But the most important characteristic of the narcissist's projected image is its lovability.

To a narcissist, love is interchangeable with other emotions, such as awe, respect, admiration, attention, or even being feared (collectively known as Narcissistic Supply). Thus, to him, a projected image, which provokes these reactions in others, is both "loveable and loved". It also feels like self-love.

The more successful this projected image (or series of successive images) is in generating Narcissistic Supply (NS) – the more the narcissist becomes divorced from his True Self and married to the image.

I am not saying that the narcissist does not have a central nucleus of a "self". All I am saying is that he prefers his image – with which he identifies unreservedly – to his True Self. The True Self becomes serf to the Image. The narcissist, therefore, is not selfish – because his True Self is paralysed and subordinate.

The narcissist is not attuned exclusively to his needs. On the contrary: he ignores them because many of them conflict with his ostensible omnipotence and omniscience. He does not put himself first – he puts his self last. He caters to the needs and wishes of everyone around him – because he craves their love and admiration. It is through their reactions that he acquires a sense of distinct self. In many ways he annuls himself – only to re-invent himself through the look of others. He is the person most insensitive to his true needs.

The narcissist drains himself of mental energy in this process. This is why he has none left to dedicate to others. This fact, as well as his inability to love human beings in their many dimensions and facets, ultimately transform him into a recluse. His soul is fortified and in the solace of this fortification he guards its territory jealously and fiercely. He protects what he perceives to constitute his independence.

Why should people indulge the narcissist? And what is the "evolutionary", survival value of preferring one kind of love (directed at an image) to another (directed at one's self)?

These questions torment the narcissist. His convoluted mind comes up with the most elaborate contraptions in lieu of answers.

Why should people indulge the narcissist, divert time and energy, give him attention, love and adulation? The narcissist's answer is simple: because he is entitled to it. He feels that he deserves whatever he succeeds to extract from others and much more. Actually, he feels betrayed, discriminated against and underprivileged because he believes that he is not being treated fairly, that he should get more than he does.

There is a discrepancy between his infinite certainty that his is a special status which renders him worthy of recurrent praise and adoration, replete with special benefits and prerogatives – and the actual state of his affairs. To the narcissist, this status of uniqueness is bestowed upon him not by virtue of his achievements, but merely because he exists.

The narcissist's deems his mere existence as sufficiently unique to warrant the kind of treatment that he expects to get from the world. Herein lies a paradox, which haunts the narcissist: he derives his sense of uniqueness from the very fact that he exists and he derives his sense of existence from his belief that he is unique.

Clinical data show that there is rarely any realistic basis for these grandiose notions of greatness and uniqueness.

Some narcissists are high achievers with proven track records. Some of them are pillars of their communities. Mostly, they are dynamic and successful. Still, they are ridiculously pompous and inflated personalities, bordering on the farcical and provoking resentment.

The narcissist is forced to use other people in order to feel that he exists. It is trough their eyes and through their behaviour that he obtains proof of his uniqueness and grandeur. He is a habitual "people-junkie". With time, he comes to regard those around him as mere instruments of gratification, as two-dimensional cartoon figures with negligible lines in the script of his magnificent life.

He becomes unscrupulous, never bothered by the constant exploitation of his milieu, indifferent to the consequences of his actions, the damage and the pain that he inflicts on others and even the social condemnation and sanctions that he often has to endure.

When a person persists in a dysfunctional, maladaptive or plain useless behaviour despite grave repercussions to himself and to others, we say that his acts are compulsive. The narcissist is compulsive in his pursuit of Narcissistic Supply. This linkage between narcissism and obsessive-compulsive disorders sheds light on the mechanisms of the narcissistic psyche.

The narcissist does not suffer from a faulty sense of causation. He is not oblivious to the likely outcomes of his actions and to the price he may have to pay. But he doesn't care.

A personality whose very existence is a derivative of its reflection in other people's minds is perilously dependent on these people's perceptions. They are the Source of Narcissistic Supply (NSS). Criticism and disapproval are interpreted as a sadistic withholding of said supply and as a direct threat to the narcissist's mental house of cards.

The narcissist lives in a world of all or nothing, of a constant "to be or not be". Every discussion that he holds, every glance of every passer-by reaffirms his existence or casts it in doubt. This is why the reactions of the narcissist seem so disproportionate: he reacts to what he perceives to be a danger to the very cohesion of his self. Thus, every minor disagreement with a Source of Narcissistic Supply – another person – is interpreted as a threat to the narcissist's very self-worth.

This is such a crucial matter, that the narcissist cannot take chances. He would rather be mistaken then remain without Narcissistic Supply. He would rather discern disapproval and unjustified criticism where there are none then face the consequences of being caught off-guard.

The narcissist has to condition his human environment to refrain from expressing criticism and disapproval of him or of his actions and decisions. He has to teach people around him that these provoke him into frightful fits of temper and rage attacks and turn him into a constantly cantankerous and irascible person. His exaggerated reactions constitute a punishment for their inconsiderateness and their ignorance of his true psychological state.

The narcissist blames others for his behaviour, accuses them of provoking him into his temper tantrums and believes firmly that "they" should be punished for their "misbehaviour". Apologies – unless accompanied by verbal or other humiliation – are not enough. The fuel of the narcissist's rage is spent mainly on vitriolic verbal send-offs directed at the (often imaginary) perpetrator of the (oft innocuous) offence.

The narcissist – wittingly or not – utilises people to buttress his self-image and to regulate his sense of self-worth. As long and in as much as they are instrumental in achieving these goals, he holds them in high regard, they are valuable to him. He sees them only through this lens. This is a result of his inability to love others: he lacks empathy, he thinks utility, and, thus, he reduces others to mere instruments.

If they cease to "function", if, no matter how inadvertently, they cause him to doubt his illusory, half-baked, self-esteem – they are subjected to a reign of terror. The narcissist then proceeds to hurt these "insubordinates". He belittles and humiliates them. He displays aggression and violence in myriad forms. His behaviour metamorphoses, kaleidoscopically, from over-valuing (idealising) the useful person – to a severe devaluation of same. The narcissist abhors, almost physiologically, people judged by him to be "useless".

These rapid alterations between absolute overvaluation (idealisation) to complete devaluation make long-term interpersonal relationships with the narcissist all but impossible.

The more pathological form of narcissism – the Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) – was defined in successive versions of the American DSM (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual published by the American Psychiatric Association) and the international ICD (Classification of Mental and Behavioural Disorders, published by the World Health Organisation). It is useful to scrutinise these geological layers of clinical observations and their interpretation.

The narcissist is portrayed as a monster, a ruthless and exploitative person. Yet, inside, the narcissist suffers from a chronic lack of confidence and is fundamentally dissatisfied. This applies to all narcissists. The distinction between "compensatory" and "classic" narcissists is spurious. All narcissists are walking scar tissue, the outcomes of various forms of abuse.

On the outside, the narcissist may appear to be labile and unstable. But, this does not capture the barren landscape of misery and fears that is his soul. His brazen and reckless behaviour covers up for a depressive, anxious interior.

How can such contrasts coexist?

Freud (1915) offered a trilateral model of the human psyche, composed of the Id, the Ego, and the Superego.

According to Freud, narcissists are dominated by their Ego to such an extent that the Id and Superego are neutralised. Early in his career, Freud believed narcissism to be a normal developmental phase between autoeroticism and object-love. Later on, he concluded that linear development can be thwarted by the very efforts we all make in our infancy to evolve the capacity to love an object (another person).

Some of us, thus Freud, fail to grow beyond the phase of self-love in the development of our libido. Others refer to themselves and prefer themselves as objects of love. This choice – to concentrate on the self – is the result of an unconscious decision to give up a consistently frustrating and unrewarding effort to love others and to trust them.

The frustrated and abused child learns that the only "object" he can trust and that is always and reliably available, the only person he can love without being abandoned or hurt – is himself.

So, is pathological narcissism the outcome of verbal, sexual, physical, or psychological abuse (the overwhelming view) – or, on the contrary, the sad result of spoiling the child and idolising it (Millon, the late Freud)?

This debate is easier to resolve if one agrees to adopt a more comprehensive definition of "abuse". Overweening, smothering, spoiling, overvaluing, and idolising the child – are also forms of parental abuse.
-------------------LA's HIGHLIGHT HERE:-------------------
This is because, as Horney pointed out, the smothered and spoiled child is dehumanised and instrumentalised. His parents love him not for what he really is – but for what they wish and imagine him to be: the fulfilment of their dreams and frustrated wishes. The child becomes the vessel of his parents' discontented lives, a tool, the magic airbrush with which they seek to transform their failures into successes, their humiliation into victory, their frustrations into happiness.

The child is taught to give up on reality and adopt the parental fantasies. Such an unfortunate child feels omnipotent and omniscient, perfect and brilliant, worthy of adoration and entitled to special treatment. The faculties that are honed by constantly brushing against bruising reality – empathy, compassion, a realistic assessment of one's abilities and limitations, realistic expectations of oneself and of others, personal boundaries, team work, social skills, perseverance and goal-orientation, not to mention the ability to postpone gratification and to work hard to achieve it – are all lacking or missing altogether.

This kind of child turned adult sees no reason to invest resources in his skills and education, convinced that his inherent genius should suffice. He feels entitled for merely being, rather than for actually doing (rather as the nobility in days gone by felt entitled not by virtue of its merits but as the inevitable, foreordained outcome of its birth right). The narcissist is not meritocratic – but aristocratic.

Such a mental structure is brittle, susceptible to criticism and disagreement, vulnerable to the incessant encounter with a harsh and intolerant world. Deep inside, narcissists of both kinds (those wrought by "classic" abuse and those yielded by being idolised) – feel inadequate, phoney, fake, inferior, and deserving of punishment.

This is Millon's mistake. He makes a distinction between several types of narcissists. He wrongly assumes that the "classic" narcissist is the outcome of parental overvaluation, idolisation, and spoiling and, thus, is possessed of supreme, unchallenged, self-confidence, and is devoid of all self-doubt.

According to Millon, it is the "compensatory" narcissist that falls prey to nagging self-doubts, feelings of inferiority, and a masochistic desire for self-punishment.
-------------------LA's HIGHLIGHT HERE-------------------
Yet, this distinction is both wrong and unnecessary. Psychodynamically, there is only one type of pathological narcissism – though there are two developmental paths to it. And all narcissists are besieged by deeply ingrained (though at times not conscious) feelings of inadequacy, fears of failure, masochistic desires to be penalised, a fluctuating sense of self-worth (regulated by NS), and an overwhelming sensation of fakeness.

In the early childhoods of all narcissists, meaningful others are inconsistent in their acceptance. They pay attention to the narcissist only when they wish to satisfy their needs. They tend to ignore him – or actively abuse him – when these needs are no longer pressing or existent.

The narcissist's past of abuse teaches him to avoid deeper relationships in order to escape this painful approach-avoidance pendulum. Protecting himself from hurt and from abandonment, he insulates himself from people around him. He digs in – rather than spring out.

As children go through this phase of disbelief. We all put people around us (the aforementioned objects) to recurrent tests. This is the "primary narcissistic stage". A positive relationship with one's parents or caregivers (Primary Objects) secures the smooth transition to "object love". The child forgoes his narcissism.

Giving up one's narcissism is tough. Narcissism is alluring, soothing, warm and dependable. It is always present and omnipresent. It is custom tailored to the needs of the individual. To love oneself is to have the perfect lover. Good reasons and strong forces – collectively known as "parental love" – are required to motivate the child to give its narcissism up.
-------------------LA's HIGHLIGHT HERE:-------------------
The child progresses beyond its primary narcissism in order to be able to love his parents. If they are narcissists, they subject him to idealisation (over-valuation) and devaluation cycles. They do not reliably satisfy the child's needs. In other words, they frustrate him. He gradually realises that he is no more than a toy, an instrument, a means to an end – his parents' gratification.

This shocking revelation deforms the budding Ego. The child forms a strong dependence (as opposed to attachment) on his parents. This dependence is really the outcome of fear, the mirror image of aggression. In Freud-speak (psychoanalysis) we say that the child is likely to develop accentuated oral fixations and regressions. In plain terms, we are likely to see a lost, phobic, helpless, raging child.

But a child is still a child and his relationship with his parents is of ultimate importance to him.

He, therefore, resists his natural reactions to his abusive caregivers, and tries to defuse his libidinal and aggressive sensations and emotions. This way, he hopes to rehabilitate the damaged relationship with his parents (which never really existed). Hence the primordial confabulation, the mother of all future narcissistic fantasies. In his embattled mind, the child transforms the Superego into an idealised, sadistic parent-child. His Ego, in turn, becomes a hated, devalued child-parent.


Therapy sessions with the narcissist resemble a battlefield. He is aloof and distanced, demonstrates his superiority in a myriad ways, resents what he perceives to be an intrusion on his innermost sanctum. He is offended by any hint regarding defects or dysfunctions in his personality or in his behaviour. A narcissist is a narcissist is a narcissist – even when he asks for help with his world and worldview shattered.
-----------------------------------------------------------

Whew...can I get an oh, my? I haven't even caught up on your thread, Rin!!! Okay. My errand be done. I'm resting and reading now...you're in my prayers, on my mind, all the way home, Rin. (Don't ever ask me to go back to that thread again, tho, 'k? And yes, I'm in my inner child right now.)

LA

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LMAO...thank you so much...I had a terrible time looking for it...

all that work...LOL...all day...wow...I can't say anything else!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


A loving heart is the beginning of all knowledge.
Thomas Carlyle
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BTW--did you see my post on the bottom of page 25? I really did find the links.

(crickets churping in the silence)


AHEM!!!! Hello!!!

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LOL...I did...I read some...LOL...I was just thinking poor LA, she worked so hard today looking for them!

I didn't have the heart to mention it!

STBXH's family fits like a glove...I really SEE why he is the way he is and he not that bad...yet...

He's following in his dad's footsteps...it's a shame, really...

To go form the guy I use to love to someone I don't really know and trust...

I TMed his yesterday about insurance...said that I was taking care of it for the both of us...I didn't want to get a flag on my license so I paid for it and am having it autopaid out of my acct.

I didn't get a reply...no OKay or anything...I just let it go!

I'm truely hoping that he gets a lawyer soon and we get this on the road...the only way that I can move back into the house sooner is if his lawyer contacts mine...THEN, we may be able to do something...

Today is three weeks that the kids and I are out of the house...and we have 29 days to court! That's almost two months out of the house!

To think that he can be so selfish and not think how this is effecting his kids by being away from home...good thing is that they have adjusted well and it's a stable environment...we have a pretty good routine...

Thanks CJ...I'm sorry that your day wasn't so great...did you talk to your DH about it? A little open and honesty? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


A loving heart is the beginning of all knowledge.
Thomas Carlyle
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Oh, CJ!

Not only did you find it, you made it so neat and pretty in your post, too. You posted that while I was scrounging...ack.

Thank you very much...and your Edit was really important, adding those insights. I believe the same thing.

Now, when I need to refer to it, it's right here. Whew!


Rin,

I feel like a giant on a short-people's thread, bumbling around. LOL.

I hope this helps with the whole idea...because I see a lot of humans as walking scar tissue...what a great way to see the human inside again. Not to act on, or choose from...to not trap and define and put away...so when you see others who don't resemble anything like your ex, after the divorce, you won't be falsely sure and wonder, how did this happen again?

Not our picker being bad...knowing what attracts and why...because it isn't a flat list...it's a lot about us, our beliefs, reflections and directions...and I believe to get it all, we lose when we lay others out flat...and then we repeat.

As for the IC and the first session history stuff...I hear ya! Sounds like you knew it was reasonable...and yucky, anyway.

As for the time away...the lengthy process...in another way, I'm thankful that what took 13 years to get to wouldn't be undone in a day--and every day you are away, you underline to yourself how important and necessary it is for you...worth the days to honor what was, what is...maybe just my old "effort matters" line of thinking...in some way, I think it honors you.

I think your choice of helping Habitat for Humanity is terrific, too. The kids and I used to do a similar thing and they still remember it.

And thank you for the "oh my" acknowledgment on the link...and sorry for spewing it all over your thread. I had to leave work and didn't want to lose it once I'd found it (finally).

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Hey, Rin!

Just checking in to say hi.
Thinking about you!

Not an ounce of experience in your sitch, so I'm glad there are people here who know!!

You sure sound like you're doing well. You seem more smiley even in your posts.

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-AmI.

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Rin,

Just popping in to say good morning and have a great day.

Prayed real hard last night for all of us...God must be tired of hearing my pleas , I mean prayers.

Still


BW me 46
WH 46
Together 28 years married 23
3 Kids DD20, DD17 and DS 14
DD #1 (1st A) 10/13/01 with single OW who was co-worker
DD#2 1/23/02 phone call from OW
WH left job 4/02
MC 10/01 to 4/02 (when he showed up)
Separated 7/04 to 10/04
Retrouvaille 9/04
Red Flags 11/05
DD#1 (2nd affair) 8/16/06 with MOW age 29 twice married and he's her boss.
Moved out (him) weekend after labor day
23rd anniversary 10/7/07
Filed 10/18/06 still seeing MOW
Dropped divorce complaint 6/7/07
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Good Morning everyone! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA- Thank you again for searching SOOOO hard for me! LOL...I do see STBXH as walking scar tissue and it really reinforces that it's not about me and it's about him...

It really helps to know what I'm dealing with...understand why things have progressed the way that they have...why I got blamed for so much...why my needs couldn't or wouldn't be met...especially when I would tell him what I needed...

I believe that if I were to run across another person like STBXH I would be able to see the signs especially if I pay attention to my feelings...my gut...

It's really a fear that I am going to have to deal with...fearing that I will put myself in the same sitch or something similiar...

The other fear I have is about money once I get into the house...I have worked the numbers up before and belive that I can do it but still have the fear all the same...

To help with that fear, I went to the library with the boys last night and borrowed books on budgets...kind of a reinforcer...I have use a cash flow program while with STBXH to help with paying the bills, so I think I have a good background...

Poor thing, he'll be starting from scratch...he hasn't balanced a checkbook the entire 13 years we have been together...I wish him well...same thing with paying the bills...I have always done that...

My shortcoming I think is being over-responsible...I would ask for help but wouldn't get it...so basically I would just let him know each week what was paid and what was due...from time to time I would ask him what he thought I needed to do in a certain situation but for the more part it was left to me...

I didn't really like it because if we got into a jam then it was my "fault" or if he would spend money and it created a problem with paying the bills, I was the one who had to figure out how to fix the problem...

That's alot of responsible and worry on my part...

I craved a teammate, a partner...and I didn't have one...POJA is a requirement for my next relationship...I now KNOW what I want from a future relationship...more than I did when I got into this one...not just no hitting and no excessive drinking...

Would you say that I have firmer boundaries for myself knowing what I know now? I think I get the concept of boundaries now...a matter of what I will or will not tolerate from other for myself...

LOL...good thing I'm strong willed... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

AmI- Thank you for popping in...I have to ask what were you're qualifications for a partner when you started looking? Anybody for that matter...

Like CJ, when you were ready for your next R, what kind of "list" did you have for a potential mate?

LA, if I understand right it is in knowing myself and standing by what I know that is the key...not giving myself away as I have done if I understand correctly...

Still-WOW, you were up really early this morning...were you having trouble sleeping again? I hope that you make the time to rest...LOL...I was actually in bed for 10 last nigth, of course, I was up I think 4 times...

I hit the cookie jar...I really need to work on self-control...I really think the IC will help with this...I believe that I'm comforting myself with food and that has not been in my nature except in this past year, as things progressed...

To think positive about it, at least I only ate four instead of the whole thing! LOL But I really hate that I do it...

I also would like to quit smoking...I've thought about checking into that new laser treatment...anyone know anything about it?

Well, let me get to work...I'm in for half a day becasue of the retreat...I'm nervous and excited about it...something new, you know...

I hope everyone has a great day...full of smiles...when you feel down smile anyway...just the act alone will make you feel better... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


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AmI- Thank you for popping in...I have to ask what were you're qualifications for a partner when you started looking? Anybody for that matter...

HA! It's funny that you ask that. My qualifications turned out to be pretty unrealistic.

My dad was an absent, irresponsible, serial cheater whose ethics, religion, behavior, everything were situational and "what feels good at the time".

I wanted the exact opposite of him. So my requirements were someone very FAMILY centered, responsible, dedicated, Christian, and totally incapable of cheating.

lol ... that's what I thought I had chosen. I thought I was SOOOO careful!

Then I re-met H. And he was SO dedicated to the kids. SO involved with his entire extended family, and great with his mom. Very strong Christian background and we went to church and classes and small groups together regularly. And he had a super rigid moral code. We talked extensively about cheating - because it had been done to him - and I was sure that he was totally incapable of doing it himself.

Now -- most of his family ties are frayed and hanging by a thread, he doesn't go to church with me anymore, and gets a little snippy about me going myself, I've found that yes, he is rigid, but the code is situational, based on his feelings. And of course he was capable of the A.

Basically, I found out he was real. Human. My "qualifications" were probably pretty unrealistic....

Sorry, that wasn't a very helpful answer. Maybe the point is "beware unrealistic requirements" .... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

-AmI.

AmIok #1831803 03/30/07 12:02 PM
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No, that was helpful...very helpful...you are very right, we are all human and can make some pretty bad choices...

You had better requirements than I did...yes, he screwed up but you two are going to recover...he's remorseful...I'm sure that it has something to do with his background and experience...

I really don't think their were unrealistic...including the word totally...LOL...is coming from your inner child...perhaps TOO narrow...with incapable of cheating...

Thank you for sharing! Have a good day!


A loving heart is the beginning of all knowledge.
Thomas Carlyle
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Rin,

My qualifications for a husband? That he'd have me.

No kidding. That was it.

Probably is a lie, though...'cuz I got ten proposals I turned down and had to ask this guy to marry ME on the first day of a leap year...(chose to)...so maybe my requirement was someone who wouldn't ask and then give in if I did.

Don't know. I know I had to swallow an ocean of fear to actually go through with getting married.

Back to you and STBXH...What I heard you say was that you chose to be over-responsible, takeover what he didn't do...which is what we do for our children...and then expect him to act like a man, is that correct?

So now you have the requirement for POJA...which is soooo easy to do in Phase I and very difficult in Phase II of marriage. How 'bout a POJA with yourself to choose not to over-do...which only leaves room for a partner to under-do?

And thank you, AmI for sharing you HAD a list, you were careful and looked for stuff in your mate...I often felt if I had more requirements, my DH would be different...that I failed, betrayed myself...now I don't. Can happen even in good marriages...with reality-based beliefs. Whew.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

God has saved me over and over...I'm so glad DH is who he is...and has stayed, by choice...until we got to here...for each day we have together now, changes my entire life time.

And for your info...I am eating Spaghettios right now, as I type and wipe my orange-stained lips. Very in my inner child. LOL.

(Now I'm going to go to AmI's thread and sign up to do a mature triathalon...I think I'm in my wishful child!)

LA

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Hey,

Wanted to share this with you because I did not knwo if you ever were able to find those songs I mentioned soem time back that deal with SA.



Hope you have a good weekend.


Divorced on 3/25/2008 but I have primary legal and physical custody of my 2 kids.

Plan A Thread
Plan B Thread
Ephesians 5:25 - Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her
Eph525 #1831806 03/31/07 08:55 PM
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Rin,

Hoping you're having a meaningful weekend at your retreat.

Still


BW me 46
WH 46
Together 28 years married 23
3 Kids DD20, DD17 and DS 14
DD #1 (1st A) 10/13/01 with single OW who was co-worker
DD#2 1/23/02 phone call from OW
WH left job 4/02
MC 10/01 to 4/02 (when he showed up)
Separated 7/04 to 10/04
Retrouvaille 9/04
Red Flags 11/05
DD#1 (2nd affair) 8/16/06 with MOW age 29 twice married and he's her boss.
Moved out (him) weekend after labor day
23rd anniversary 10/7/07
Filed 10/18/06 still seeing MOW
Dropped divorce complaint 6/7/07
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Good Morning Everyone! I had a great weekend! It was SOOO peaceful out there. I was really happy to be there instead of it town. The HD State Rally was in town this weekend and all you could hear were Motorcycles EVERYWHERE.

So, needless to say I was glad that I got to spend the weekend with out hearing all the noise. I got the boys back last night...they hada good weekend...they camped in the parking lot with some friends of ours in their campers with STBXH...

They said that they got to have a good time...F announced that STHXB had paid for me to go too...that was done before I left...I just told F that I had other plans for the weekend...

I got my hair cut Friday...I had been thinking about it, but at first I wanted to do it becuase STBXH wouldn't let me cut it short...wrong reason to cut it! Well, I cut it Friday for me...from the middle of my back to right under my ears and I'm in love with it...

I was told all weekend that it makes me look sassy! YEAH! I'm in love with it and it's so easy to take care of!

I enjoyed the weekend, it was like a great big slumber party...we ate to much...didn't sleep enough...and learned some awesome stuff...

I tried Yoga for the first time...interesting! I went to my DCare group last night and my meeting!

I also started summarizing the last year of stuff between STBXH and I...I spent a few hours on it yesterday and only got TO July...not a whole lot of instances but a lot to go through...I'm only half way through one folder...and I've got three more to go through...

oh, oh< oh....today is a day to celebrate...I've got 25 days out of the house and 25 days to court!! woohoo! I've had NC with him since last Monday? Yeah, when L called about him wanting his dad to pick him up! So, today makes a week!

ALos, I got up in front of 65 people and told my story...or, LOL, a summary of my story...I got hugs afterwards and was told how proud they were and I really looked like I had my act together... It felt really good...that's the largest group that I have ever spoke in front of...

So, I'm branching out! LOL At first I was thinking that I WAS NOT going to talk in front of these people but my fear was so small I changed my mind and felt really good afterward...go me!

Quote
Back to you and STBXH...What I heard you say was that you chose to be over-responsible, takeover what he didn't do...which is what we do for our children...and then expect him to act like a man, is that correct?

LA- Yeap, that's what happened...and it was as time went on...little by little...first the checkbook...then, something else...it's one of those things...if you want it done then you have to do it yourself or it won't get done...

LOL...I trained him well and I've learned well from my mistake...or at least I hope that I have...I was just reading about this in a recovery book and it jumped out at me...like "AHA, here is one of my shortcoming!"

Regardless of what my IC says, I still want to own my part of the M failure!

So, I need to go get some work done...hope you all have a good day!

E-I will listen to that as soon as I get a chance...we are really busy this morning! Phone is ringing off the hook!


A loving heart is the beginning of all knowledge.
Thomas Carlyle
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STHXB's is asking for sole custody, child support, use of the house...everything that I am!


A loving heart is the beginning of all knowledge.
Thomas Carlyle
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Rin,

My WH (STBXWH) also asked for alimony and for me to pay his attorney fees.

I think it's just a legal maneuveur. Start documenting about time spent woth kids, condition when he comes home etc.

When I got the counterfile from my WH I was furious...never brought it up to him after because I didn't want him to know he rattled my cage.

Still


BW me 46
WH 46
Together 28 years married 23
3 Kids DD20, DD17 and DS 14
DD #1 (1st A) 10/13/01 with single OW who was co-worker
DD#2 1/23/02 phone call from OW
WH left job 4/02
MC 10/01 to 4/02 (when he showed up)
Separated 7/04 to 10/04
Retrouvaille 9/04
Red Flags 11/05
DD#1 (2nd affair) 8/16/06 with MOW age 29 twice married and he's her boss.
Moved out (him) weekend after labor day
23rd anniversary 10/7/07
Filed 10/18/06 still seeing MOW
Dropped divorce complaint 6/7/07
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,115
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I wouldn't worry too much. Have your ducks in order and get ready for battle. STBXH is now offically a POS. No normal human being goes for sole custody without there being some serious issues with the other spouse. I don't see where he stands a chance and this will probably back fire on him. He wants to punish you for taking away his entitlements. Don't let him.

Also, don't get caught up in his game. Play your own. Try not to feel entitled yourself. Don't try to punish him either. No Revenge. Fight for what is right. Fight for what is best for you and the boys. That does not include taking them away from him. Give him a chance to be a daddy.

Basically, DON'T REACT! THAT'S WHAT HE WANTS!!
Don't even talk to him about it.

Do this right and the judge will see through all the BULL SHIAT!

You're doing great. Conult your A and heed their advice.
Find away to vent.

Stay Strong. Your boys need YOU right now.

I'm praying for you.


BS 33 EXWW 35 DS 5
OM1 9/06 - 03/07
OM2 04/07 - present
Divorced May 8, 2008
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S4B

It is legal stuff and grasping for control again. Let it go. It's just a tantrum on paper.


johnstwin-

"I may not know what the future holds, but I know who holds my future." -Martin Luther

Remarried my FXH 25 years to the day of our first M. God is so good-and sometimes so unexpected!

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