It seems to me THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT YOU DID regarding ME...ARROGANCE is a good description of my impression of your post to me...



ASSUMPTION..How can you know this? The posters here surely have computers. What percentage of low income folks without insurance have PCs and internet access? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I don't get what you are trying to accomplish.

Are you saying that when you have profitted and learned from an experience that you don't recommend it to people that you care about? Do you hold back on sharing the positive value because of ASSUMPTIONS or PREJUCICES you have?

Have you checked out the going rate for an individual therapy session? The charge for an initial evaluation session is more than the cost of an hour's session with Steve. I know this for a FACT. I don't know where you can find a REPUTABLE, EXPERIENCED therapist for MODEST FEES....in my community you can't...

I respect Sis' choice not to obtain help from Steve at this time. I never said that I did not.

Huh? How would counseling with the Harley's make "recovery harder," TA? That makes no sense. I think you are making much ado about nothing. If a person can't [or won't] cough up the money to pay Harley, then all they have to say is "I can't afford it." No big deal; no harm done.

One does not have to have a "well paid job" or "insurance" to get counseling with the Harleys, just be able to scrape together $185, which most anyone can do if they want. It might be the difference between and saving and losing a marriage, after all. And divorce is much more expensive than a $185 session. Knowing what I know, if I were in LS's shoes, I would GET the money so I would have the best chance possible.

But, all that is neither here nor there, she [or anyone else] can simply say "I can't afford it" and move on. No big deal and no harm done.

I will add that many here don't NEED counseling to save their marriages, but I think that touchy situations such as LisSis's could GREATLY BENEFIT from some strategic guidance from SH. And knowing what I know about affairs, I would want her to have the VERY BEST available. Since most counselers are USELESS, I certainly wouldn't send her to an over the counter C. They usually cause more harm than good.

If one is going to get counseling, as LS should IMO, she should get someone who KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE DOING. She cannot afford your average know-nothing dummie that passes for a MC nowadays.

AND ANOTHER THING...

I GOT WHAT I ASKED FOR AND NEEDED from Steve...with emphasis on the I...

What worked best for ME..was TO ACT/TO DO in order to cope with the devastation in my life...clean your house..sell it.. find a new house....

In order to continue to FUNCTION, I could not give in to MY FEELINGS..

Some of my coworkers have told me that back then it seemed that I had a wall around me..that no one could get through to...INSIDE..I was hurting so bad...but I couldn't break down...or I would have lost it day to day...

My individual therapist seemed to foster my whiny "I don't know how I'm going to make it" SELF that I kept inside...

Steve, on the other hand, TOLD ME WHAT TO DO..

That's exactly what I wanted from HIM...

With pen in hand, I would ask: "What do I say?" and he would respond: "Write this down"...Just like a COACH on the sidelines.."HERE'S YOUR NEXT PLAY" figuratively... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I LOVED THAT STRUCTURED, DIRECTIVE APPROACH...

I personally needed and wanted that type of DIRECTION in order to allay MY ANXIETY and SADNESS...

It made me FEEL POWERFUL..like I WAS ACCOMPLISHING SOMETHING...at a time when most aspects of my life were OUT OF MY CONTROL...

She doesn't' have the luxury of searching about for the RARE good IC, that understands infidelity, at her greatest time of need. She needs someone who can comprehend the situation and intelligently guide her through it. Someone she knows is worth the money. Paying $110 for a useless counselor will get her nowhere. Crapshoots can be saved for another day; at the moment she needs to go with the sure deal.

If I may interject,

LilSis is attempting to work the MB program. Some may have be able to work this without their counseling. I did not do Plan A/Plan B personally, however, many people on these threads did. And many people called the Harley's a few times, they may not have done extensive counseling, but enough to where the Harley's could provide personalized advice.

We on these threads, are not the authors of this program, the Harley's are. Each M is different, however, in LilSis's case, there was history before she got here. Now, having said that, I am not anywhere near a therapist, but I do recognize someone else, similar to me, with financial security issues. LilSis struggled to call the first time bc she didn't want to pay a credit card bill. Here is what she said 01/08/07:

"I will make an appointment before the end of the week. I promise. So stretching includes carrying a balance on my credit card, right? Ahh..no big deal"

It obviously is a big deal to her, not judging, just stating a fact. She also seemed to ignore suggestions as we on the boards struggled to provide her with more than a cheerleading session w/o upsetting her. We all still wanted to help, hence the suggestions to go the experts.

LilSis seems to be spiraling downward and it is sad and frustrating to "watch". We can only do so much here, there are limitations. It is bc we care that we suggest SH, not to make her feel bad.

EXACTLY....

Among other statistics...


Many people posting here make clear that they are posting from work, and do not have access to computers at home.

Mnay people (do you want me to go look up the stats?) own mobile phones and have access to the internet, even when they have no jobs and presumably no insurance.

To make the assumption that just because someone is posting here, and is articulate and can spell, and had access to the internet - implies that they are employed, solvent and have insurance - is illogical. It makes it more likely, but not inevitable.


Don't you? Think hard, Mimi. It's not pleasant having ASSUMPTIONS made about YOU, is it?


Really? From her thread...


This was in relation to Plan A, but came after several posts proclaiming the value of SH and being disappointed that LilSis hadn't contacted him.

Mimi, can you not see how what you said is likely to be interpreted? It says 'Do it my way or you'll certainly fail'. It comes across as manipulative and bullying. Adding all those 'IMO's and 'MY OPINION's doesn't disguise the fact that many of the things you say seem intended to shame the poster into doing things your way.


Like many people here, my recovery has come about in a very different way from yours. MY WAY WORKED TOO. Sharing my experience with another poster, for me, involves offering understanding and interpretation of their situation, but acknowledging that their path through the mess is somethíng unique to them. Do you think I should do it your way, Mimi? Do you think - given the proven success of my approach - that I should press LilSis to follow my magic formula to the exact letter (because after all, I recovered my marriage)? And there are other posters here who have recovered their marriages without even reading a Harley book. Should we all lay down the law..."This is what you should do to save your marriage."..."No, this is what you should do to save your marriage."..."No, this is..." and so on. It doesn't work, does it? The Harley approach offers a formula, but developing the abilities needed to work that formula is a unique challenge for each individual BS. For all the similarities in A situations, each BS is different and must find their own growth path. What LilSis needs to develop within herself has to be different from what you needed to develop within yourself, Mimi, because she is not you.

SH offered you guidance that helped you. I don't doubt it. I also don't doubt that much of what he said in the first consultation is 'cookie-cutter' advice as LilSis observed. But I don't think he operates as a recorded message; I would be very surprised if his advice didn't take into account the nature of his client - a hysterical, panicky client will need a different approach than a calm, clear-thinking one. How much of Steve's advice to you, Mimi, was cookie-cutter and can be passed on to others, and how much was tailored to your own personality and circumstances? In passing on SH's advice to LilSis, have you asked yourself how much of his advice was shaped by his awareness of your strengths and your weaknesses? Are they identical to LilSis's?


Not here in the UK, by a long way. Here, you pay for 1.5 hours in the initial consult, which is about £70 or $150. Do you pay for more than 1.5 hrs? Is therapy in the US more than $300/hr?

TA

If you think counseling with the Harleys is expensive, try divorce.

The truth of the matter is that Lil Sis has gone from an impeccible Plan A to Plan Lil Sis - no focus, no aim and extreme extreme pain. While she was focused on what Steve had taught her and strategized with her, it didn't seem to matter that her husband was incredibly dense, cold or cruel - she had the mental toughness in place to deflect it and not personalize it. She was working on a plan - a specific plan that she had paid $185 plus a lot of time here to study and get support in reinforcing.

Now she's gone back into the deep psychological pain she was in before she found marriage builders. This is VERY costly to her. Not only in terms of emotions, but money too. It's more expensive for her right now to continue suffering the magnitude of pain without a specific plan than it would be to call Steve, pay another 185 and get back on the rails running a specific plan that's designed to recover her marriage.

It baffles me - I work in a profession that requires people invest a significant amount of money in themselves - and I will watch people step over dollars to pick up pennies! TogetherAlone - that is the method you are advocating. $185 is a lot for someone like Oklahoma - who's husband so effectively shut her off from resources that she went without heat for several weeks in the winter! But Lil'Sis admits to having the ability to cover the "tuition" for a coaching session - but it "stretches" her out of her comfort zone.

Since when does any of this infidelity stuff and the requisite work for recovery allow for staying in a comfort zone?

Divorce is going to be a lot more expensive for Lil Sis than a coaching session with someone who can get her out of her pain and back onto her plan.

Where am I advocating that? The point I was and am making is not about LilSis's willingness to pay for counselling - it is about making assumptions about another person and then chiding them for not fulfilling your expectations.

My overriding problem with the thread in question is the consistent projection of one person's experience onto another, the assumption that the other's path must duplicate one's own, and the 'disappointment' expressed when the other does not take the advice so fervently given.

If I were LilSis, by now I would be feeling a lot of sulky resistance to a thread full of eager, urgent, conflicting advice.

I'm not surprised she is reluctant to call SH. Why add to the pressure and confusion?

And I'm not that convinced about SH anyway. Remember Leilana?

TA

Would you be specific about that which are not convinced ?

Pep

Your discussion here is valid...but a request, please?

Would ALL OF YOU PLEASE stop making ASSUMPTIONS about ME, my financial situation, how much cops make, my motivations, my priorities?

I am me, not mimi, not TA. Heck, I'm not even LilSis. I actually have a name.

How many times on this thread has my name been referenced? Did anyone think to ASK me??? If you want to have a discussion about this, please leave me out of it, OR ASK me for MY TRUTH and do not make assumptions about me. To do otherwise is disrespectful.

If you want to have this discussion, fine. However, you are all making broad, sweeping generalizations and using me as your "example." Please cease and desist.

Thank you, and carry on.

Thank you Lilsis!

LilSis

I agree entirely; it's pretty much the point I'm making. I didn't start this thread and won't post to it again after this.

Just one response to Pepperband.


Do you remember Leilana? She was one of the few posters, back in 2001/02, who ever consulted SH...that I knew of, anyway. Her H, if you remember, worked with the OW and was in daily contact. But SH advised them that it was safe for this to continue, that Lug (her H) was so sincere and remorseful that there was no danger.

Leilana was very doubtful about this, as it was clearly not in accord with Willard's 'NC for life' edict. But she went along with it on SH's advice...and, you probably remember...after a couple of years she discovered that the A had re-ignited fairly quickly. What worried me about the whole thing was not that SH made a wrong judgement about Lug, but that he ignored one of the pillars of Willard's method. This wasn't the only time I heard of him giving this advice - although I don't know the outcome of the other cases - and it made me wonder whether the Harley approach was actually a single approach at all.

I have a lot of faith in Willard; I don't think his rules can be ignored just like that...I'd have had a lot of trouble trusting Steve had it been me in that position.

TA

TA:

I'm not going to get into a debate with you or anyone here about statistics. Yes, I MAY HAVE been making an assumption about the financial level of the posters here because I haven't researched that and don't really plan to do that. So you very well may be correct about what you are saying...

BUT YOU WERE MAKING ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT MY FINANCIAL SITUATION.... That is what I was "calling you out on" as MEDC has said. That really bothered me..that is a SORE POINT for ME. For you to ASSUME that I don't have MONETARY ISSUES because my H is a BUSINESSMAN is WRONGFUL of you.

You ask:



So my answer to this is NO!!!


You quoted me here:



And then you said:




I do not feel AT ALL RESPONSIBLE for how folks INTERPRET what I say. There is NO WAY that I can possibly CONTROL that. If I had to be continuously concerned about that, I would not be able to post here at all. This is ONE-SIDED COMMUNICATION here. In a two-way conversation, one can read another's reactions and be sensitive to those reactions. Here you can not. Here I CAN ONLY SPEAK FROM MY OWN HEART AND MIND and then TRY to clear up any misinterpretation. Which I am trying to do for you now. I have absolutely NO NEED FOR ANYONE TO DO THINGS MY WAY. I would ask you to look inside yourself to question why you would think anyone, including me, would want to do that on a forum. I only come here in an effort to HELP OTHERS..not to CONTROL OTHERS. That would serve no benefit for me ever. MBers IS STRICTLY MY MISSIONARY EFFORT TO HELP OTHERS AND ALSO FOR ME TO GAIN MORE LEARNING FOR MYSELF ABOUT PEOPLE AND RELATIONSHIPS TO FURTHER MY OWN PERSONAL RECOVERY.

I strive to be DIRECT AND CLEAR. That's my truth...who I am... I strive to be OPEN AND HONEST. IF I WANT SOMEONE TO DO THINGS MY WAY, I WILL DIRECTLY SAY IT. I SAY THIS TO MY SONS ABOUT MANY THINGS. NOWHERE IN THAT STATEMENT DID I SAY DO IT MY WAY...Another assumption that you are making, TA, that I would be passive about it. I would be direct.

I was recommending for Sis to do it the MBers WAY!!!..and that will continue to be my bias on this forum because..as I have said before..that comes from MY EXPERIENCE with the success of this approach and how much I profitted from MY SESSIONS with Steve.



NO. I think you should definitely do it YOUR WAY and not expect me to do it YOUR WAY.

As others have said, I am going to be very PASSIONATE AND VOCAL about what I BELIEVE IN...That's ME....who I am...but even though YOU THINK it's not sincere, I DO RESPECT OTHERS' OPINIONS..I say IMO, etc., because I know I can come on STRONG..I even do this in my DAILY LIFE with my H and colleagues ....and will continue because folks can read me wrong on this...that I don't respect them when I really do..

I only do this WHEN I CARE..when I am apathetic, I don't like you or don't care about you...

This is probably much too much information that you need to know or care to know about me..but it helps ME to say this and to clear this up....



DUH..I know all this...I agree with Kayla..I am mainly concerned about her to decision to stop using the MB APPROACH even though it WAS WORKING for HER...



What you are saying is EXACTLY WHY I RECOMMENDED THAT SHE TALK TO STEVE..because he CAN OFFER ADVICE TAILORED TO HER SPECIFIC SITUATION..and WE CAN'T..so what's your problem with Steve??? I don't get it. I've been concerned that MY/OUR ADVICE is incorrect because we are AMATEURS..HE IS THE PROFESSIONAL... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I do remember Leilana ... but what I do not remember is SH telling her that WH was an exception & that she should permit the M to go forward ~without~ NC , even tho Leilana WANTED NC. My memory of this is different than yours. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ... It was too long ago to remember the exact ndetails ... I DO remember when his A re-started Lelaini said "I should have listened to everyone." What I ~think~ SH said to her was "You might be an exception." ... or "You will find out if you are an exception." ....

What I was specifically thinking about was more recent posters who claim to coach with SH and then claim to have been told something that makes my eyebrows go ^^ ... and my mouth go O ... and I am left to wonder just what sort of filter that information came through. One guy, who became a board pariah due to his own weirdness ... and so I basically came to believe he was flat out lying about his "sessions" with SH ... that they never happened. There are a few other examples in my mind where the reported "SH advice" sounded so off kilter that even tho I think there were actual SH counseling sessions ... the information was filtered incorrectly by the listener (poster) and were mostly self-will testimonials.

But, thanks for answering my Q.

Pep

And I came to the conclusion yesterday that sometimes "YOU GET WHAT YOU PUT INTO IT"...

I went in SPECIFICALLY asking for DIRECT ADVICE on what to do IN MY SITUATION...

And that is what I got...

AND of course he's not going to click with everyone and everyone is not going to click with him...

I had a completely different experience than Sis did...

Outside of the talk about LilSis calling the Harley's ,I have to say, she sounds deflated, like she really NEEDS Plan B NOW, or SOON. She's ready. I would rather she get into Plan B than have a nervous breakdown.