Ken313,

Sorry for the pain you are going through. I read somewhere that only 18% of the marriages where the W breaks her vows, does the marriage survive. On the other hand 80% of the marriages where the H breaks his vows the marriage survives.

This happens in 50% of the marriages (that we know of). I started digging around in my family and found out my dad had an A. It happens in the best and worst of marriages. You are not alone. I know that my H - shouted at me this morning that he has to grit his teeth when he is around his friends because none of them know the pain that he is going through (this is 18 months later). Actually, we know 3 families - one is going through a divorce after she had 4 As (she's a manic depressive), one divorced (she had had brain surgery the year before) and the other is still together. We'll hopefully be the 1 in 4 to make it.

I want to make this perfectly clear. I don't think my H would have stayed if this A went the distance. It is bad enough as it is.

I told him this morning about the rape and death comparison and he said I was right. He usually says I've killed him. Everything with us is up and down. A lot of down lately.

I need to say this again ... I guess I will say it every time ... I am not making excuses. There are no excuses, but there are reasons that set the environment. We have to discover the reasons so that we don't repeat the same behaviors. My H and I both have changed a lot.

I think we are all here for the same reason. To talk to someone who is experiencing what we are experiencing and hopefully find some help.

All I can say from this side of the fence, is that it was not about my H not being enough for me. It was about my failings - my weaknesses. I loved my H, still love my H and I hurt him. I have to live with that for the rest of my live.

Thanks for the advice for being straight with him. I honestly try. He has open access to my life and I want it that way. I want him to heal.

Anything that a WW or BH can give me to help in this healing process will be a great blessing.

Thanks again to all. (and for the techy advice)

lilmom

Lousy Golfer,

My point wasn't to torture Lilmom. My point was to allow her a view, a peak inside the the pain and hurt the BS experiences and the pain and destruction the A causes.

As for the "victemhood" yes that is a MAJOR deal She needs to OWN her mistake, and not make excuses for it.

Nuff said.

Jim

Thanks LG. I hear that he needs to put more effort in this from my family and his but, he is very strong willed. I know that if he wasn't strong willed he wouldn't be here. So, it's a two edged sword.

Believe me it is only from God that I can stay sometimes. But, I promised my oldest that if it ever got so bad I couldn't handle it I would take the kids to a hotel for the night and get some breathing room.

Everytime that I've tried. He's broken and asked me not to go and says he'll try to do better.

How do I get someone that is so wounded to stop being angry. He says this is the first time in his life that he has gone and beat the s*** out of the person that did something wrong to him. The OM is a slim and would have my H thrown in jail. No doubt.

This is a mess that I created....I just need help.

Honestly I don't blame those that rant... this is an anonymous forum and maybe they can get some of their anger and hurt out here and not use it to destroy thier M.

lilmom

Okay guys how do you answer Why without sounding like a victim or giving excuses.

lilmom

Just reread my post; let me correct. This is the first time he has not beat up someone. He doesn't want to go to jail because of the kids.

Lilmom,

No problem... My point was to open a porthole and allow you to see inside you H by seeing inside this BH...

Would I take my WW back if she became a FWW and did the things nessassary to prove to me she was "all in" the M for thick or thin for the long haul, that I would be her #1 her one and only?

Yes, I would in a micro-second. No doubt no hesatation, no reservation, answering that. I love her with all my heart.

Would I be watching her like a Hawk and guarding my heart as well... Yes I would...

Would I need to have a new dynamic. Yes I would. Would I do what I need to do to protect her from me, to make it so she would never want to stray again. With all my strength.

The point is however she need to make the first step, what I call the heavy lifting.

It appears you are trying to do that, good on you!

Understand it may take along time with BH seeing you doing the heaving lifting for him to trust again. That is what this is a trust (is she going to hurt me again) issue...


Jim

Thanks.

I'm trying.

lilmom

LM,

Okay, I finally get what you mean about no excuses...environment, weakness. What I heard was that there were external stresses you gave yourself permission to react to...

Bad boss, bad job, feeling abandoned and neglected...chronic pain (which feels like your own body is rejecting you)...is that a valid summary?

Now what I read was you examining to see where those same stresses would be dealt with differently in the future...did I get that right?

And in between, I hear your BH's verbal abuse...A's are abusive...trading verbal abuse for them doesn't make it even. I know you know that.

The level of detail your BH has been asking for is his determination...not yours. May not make any sense to you...may even seem to be self-slicing. Not your call. You choose to comply as part of your amends...have you read Joseph's Letter, yet? I think you can do a search here and really accept your BH's questions from a different perception...so this can be healing for you BOTH.

You cannot get anyone to stop being angry. You can't make them happy, either. His own anger is part of his healing...owning it is the first step. Please stop owning what is his and begin acknowledging and validating that it IS his.

Very hard part of being betrayed is the anger with experience from not having the human power to change the past. The knowledge that what was done cannot be undone...it remains done...in the past...very difficult for our wishful child inside to cope with. Just as it was for us when we were kids and we couldn't unbreak the ornament, vase or door frame.

Your BH wants desperately to have a do-over. I believe, so do you. Learn the lesson of the past...we can only amend in the present. Don't fight that human limitation--we all share it. It's there for your own freedom, to be new today, in every moment. And all, as a human being, you have is today.

Look to your part of newness...can you see your BH as new? Clean slate? Can you see yourself as new? You are not who you were 18 months ago...know that. Choose to know that to your bones...

Look at how much you've learned...and idenitified. High stress triggers fantasy...there's a permission we give ourselves when it hits a certain level. Revoking that permission is crucial to growth. Every WS had one or more triggering high-stress events...death of a parent or child, loss of a dream job; in my case, possible loss of my first born...in my DH's case, loss of his spouse...and they are mixed stresses, usually have FOO (family of origin) influences, children and self-image stresses.

Identifying what stress is, and whether it's really coming from the outside in or inside out is important.

Is that part of the plan you're looking for? Both the why and the why not in the future?

They are tied together...which can feel confusing at first. Go with it, anyway.

Your own clarity, not through BH, through your own stuff is imperative. Which is why I believe my marriage couldn't have recovered without MC/IC from a Christian, pro-marriage counselor and our choosing to go for nearly two years (my DH continues his)...reading books, writing in journals, doing communication exercises, learning about boundaries and standards...lots of growth stuff from my intent to know my why's, how's and change my life...not my DH's life.

Committing to grow side by side...my focus on me, my stuff...respectful of his stuff. Knowing it was disrespectful and harmful to want to change what DH was feeling, thinking, believing, perceiving...and setting my goal to know, understand, instead.

Respecting he was whole, complete and capable...and learning I was, also...became the groundwork of me being safe to share with, and choosing to share with him. Owning my own stuff...when I eliminated my DJs, my pain went to half instantly...and as I respected his stuff, I respected my own...when I didn't make him responsible for my stuff, then I stopped being responsible for his...

His feelings aren't wrong. Neither are yours. They are signals to you about yourself, from your own beliefs. Same for him. The act of sharing these signals, working to get the information they deliver, and doing so as an act of love for yourself and your marriage, your BH, results in feeling very loving, and very, very loved.

You can do this...share, not convince...be open and honest because that's who you are...listen and repeat, with respect, to clarify or confirm...not to refute or change.

Being present is how we know the past cannot destroy, nor the future change the present...staying present, right now, is living in truth. Your choice what you want to live from. Truth is the antidote to reaction. Aligning to truth instead of fantasy keeps your marriage, yourself and your love safe.

All within your choice, your power...and no external stresses can limit your power, ever.

God's design. Celebrate it.

LA

Post deleted by Ken313

Thanks LA and Jim.

I think his underlying emotions are humiliation, pride and fear. We've worked through most of the humiliation, the pride thing is big (ex-athlete - it comes with the man), but the fear comes from his dad having a 2 y A with his Mom's Best Friend. This was scarring.

I talked to him today about seeing a counselor again. I think I may need to insist. (Kinda hard with a strong willed person to insist.)

lilmom

Yes - that's valid. That's what I did, I gave myself permission to talk to this slime b/c it made some of the pain I was living in go away and he said he could help with the job situation.......LIES, I FELL FOR LIES! I AM AN IDIOT.


I know I'm not the same peson I was 18 months ago. But I'm not the same "together" person I was 3 years ago. I want to get my mental and physical health back. This is very difficult.



I think we've gotten through the reasons - but honestly they aren't good enough for my husband. He still asks why??


I need a plan for helping him accept the why and move towards recovery.

lilmom

lilmom

i don't have any advice to offer

i acted just like your H is acting...i was still so angry
and my H was he acting just like you are

i didn't think that i really wanted him anymore and he was really trying hard

the difference is
my H went back to the OW after 8 months

he said that he couldn't stand to live this way any longer -i wasn't letting our marraige heal because i wouldn't forgive and forget.......that he knew i would never be able to do this and he wouldn't be able to be happy with me because i would always make him feel the guilt and shame of what he had done

i wonder, if he hadn't, would i still have felt the same and be acting the same way after 18 months?

i DO know thateven though i didn't know that my H was seeing the OW again, when he told me that he was considering leaving becausehe was so very unhappy and my anger kept him and us from trying to find happiness again......I began to consider if i really wanted to be with him

and i realized that i didn't want to be WITHOUT HIM

that's when i started making efforts to control my words and actions

it was too late for me, my H had already starting seeing the OW again and had already decided to leave

nothing i said or did made a difference then

that was 3 years ago.....he never gave us the chance to try again

when i read your thread i couldn'timagine how either of us could have dealt with things the way they were for as long as you have and i realize this is what my H thought was going to happen

i'm sad to see that your marraige isn't healing after all of this time

Thanks for talking Eva1967. If anything this forum is making me more resolved to get him in with a counselor. Did you ever see a counselor?

For others in this situation, did you ever see a counselor? Did it help?

I feel like we are at a crossroads again. It seems like we have a few good days and then something else happens.
I HATE THE DEVIL. I FEEL LIKE WE ARE ON HIS RADAR.

The other day my H had to go on the OM's street for his job -- had to look at that house for a couple of hours.

It sent him into a spiral and he has exploded several times. He wonders if he will ever heal and has real doubts. Were you like this?

Let me ask you this --- even though you broke up. Did you heal from the hurt? After three years?

I think he thinks he will never heal, but to tell you the truth, I haven't ever met anyone that said they never healed. They just did it with or without the WS.

I'm still looking for advice. I think we have a chance. We love each other so much - I know that is why it hurts him so badly.

Thanks again for listening and chimming in.

lilmom

Quick update: I've been trying suggestions all weekend. It seems to be helping. I just talked to my H and he said that shouldn't have stayed on the OM's street - should have just left. I agreed and said that it was a horrible thing to have to endure. He's headed home after a cold day fishing and he sounds like the man I married. Keep hitting me with reality and suggestions. We need it. We want to be the 1 in 4 that makes it for the WW/BH.

Thanks again and keep praying -- it is only God that binds us together.

lilmom

hey Lilmom, after w#2 took me 4 years to heal...

We did MC, it helped me, she wasn't into trying to make the M work was to busy running. MC can work but only if you want to work it...

You have a good chance, he is still there, he is still angey and fighting (thus he still cares) it is when they quit and give up and stop trying and caring that you are toast.

Jim

I wonder if your husband would consent to talking to the Harley's on the phone? It is costly (180.per hr.), but he might only need one consultation. They are experts in this stuff, and it won't take hours and hours to cut to the chase.

lilmom,

Ditto everything LG said. You made your mistakes, yes. You have remorse, yes. You want to do whatever it takes to mend the M, yes? But if your H does want to save this marriage, he has to do a little of the work too.

You are very understanding about Ken. His WW has put him through he)) but UNLIKE YOU, has yet to show any remorse, much less any interest in saving the marriage.

I also think believer's idea about a session with the Harley's is excellent. I also agree it may only take one session with an unbiased observer to help your husband.

My FBH was totally opposite of yours, doesn't really want ANY details...and except for the initial anger shown around and right after d-day, he has been extremely forgiving and just downright wonderful.

Your H is fixated on the anger/pain. I believe you are in the right place and if you work at it, with the advice you find here, you will find some peace in your M.

good luck,

Mom

We are going to church today. First time in several weeks, seems everyone keeps getting sick around here and our church is about to split (more crap we have to deal with). But we know others that have it worse - one friend recently found out her child has a brain tumor, other child had contact with a sex offender (luckily they found out quickly), and then she lost her job. UNBELIEVABLE.

So my H and I know that there are worst things that can happen. He looks around and says we haven't lost anything. We just have to heal.

As for the 4 years - did the anger take that long or just to quit thinking about it?

I am going to try to work out counseling. The last time we went together, he just sat there and yelled at me the whole time. Later the counselor called me to reschedule and said that we wouldn't make it. I didn't reschedule - didn't sound like he was a very good counselor to me if he would say this after one session. We talked to another right after, but I think it was too soon. After two sessions he didn't want to go back. She was already moving to forgiveness --- he was way not ready.

I found it very beneficial. It was like she got at some root issues very quickly and then she turned us over to the MC.

Believer - did you talk to the Harley's? Just wondering?

Thanks again. I need the support.

lilmom

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Also, just wanted to add - anyone please feel free to join in this conversation. I see that there are always people reading it. Even if it's just to say we'll pray for each other. This is a spiritual battle for the family. I know that now. If the devil can take down the mother, he has an 80% chance of taking out the family and destroying many, many lives. Please pray and let me know if I can pray for you. My faith is weak at times through this battle, but God shows me he is there to keep me going.

In his grip - because anyone else would have let me go,
lilmom

As I said, anger is a secondary emotion. I have some anger issues currently, but they are rapidly faiding. the primary emotion is pain and betryal.

OK, When I said 4 years to heal, I wasn't all anger, all, even most of that time, It was hurt... I was deeply wounded, my current IC says I most likly suffered PTSD (post traumatic stress) After W#2 Frankly I couldn't trust any women, the only women I found attractive were unavailable. The few women I could trust took forever to build that trust. I just couldn't risk being hurt again. Does that help.

Frankly I would have taken W#2 back, I have a very big heart and I am very forgiving, I am not a quiter...
For me the abandonment was probably as bad or worse then the the "fling" I caught her in the middle of.

I would say the anger passed pretty quickly for me, replaced by deep loss and grief. That stage took like forever...

does that help...

Jim