Lilsis, I don't know all the details so forgive me if I missed something... but these people that you said you haven't heard from... have YOU called them recently? Just because you are going through a crisis does not mean that anyone other than your closest friends (and us here on MB) will ALWAYS take the initiative to contact you. Pick up the phone and call anyone that you want to keep in touch with... let them know that you value their friendship and make the effort to keep in touch. It might pay off... it might not... but at least you won't have to wonder about their feelings anymore.

Just a thought.

MEDC

You are correct, MEDC...I have not reached out. Maybe it's a "girl" thing, maybe it's just my pride, thinking that they should be the ones who would take the time to contact me...maybe just once in nearly six months.

Whatever...

So two things I've decided:
1. I don't want to dwell on this because I end up feeling bad about myself and angry with these so-called friends. I don't need the negative emotions.
2. I don't want to reach out to them because it's not worth the pain it might cause. If it's not a "sure thing" that will make me feel better, then I don't need it. Just let it go.

Sound good?

It has felt good to vent here...and good for you all to remind me that it's not about me...and for you to tell me that you understand how it feels...I may be self-centered, but I'm not crazy! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Venting is healthy.

Self preservation is normal.

Ambivelance is normal.

U have no control over people's poor choices.

No your not crazy. The situation is crazy. U got drawn in.

We the many here do understand how if FEELS. OUCH.

We all have limits.

Did you get your fair share of huggs today???

Sis,

I wanted to say something about the church lady, about givers, giving in general. But first, short comment about friends in this situation.

Sometimes it's hard for us BS's to let our friends be our friends. We push others away, because we want to curl up and lick our wounds, we want time to deal with our thoughts and our pain in our privacy. We can't deal with other people - we can barely deal with getting up in the morning.

So our friends just don't know what to do. They want to help, but they aren't trained, they don't know WHAT to do that would help. They stand by, wondering, hoping that things will work out. They don't want to step in to someone else's business unwanted, but they DO want to help.

And we don't ask because we just are able to lift our heads off the pillow.

We think they don't care.
They think we don't need them.

You might be surprised if you called your friends, because they don't know HOW to call you - they might think you have left THEM behind. You will never know for sure without making the call. If it were me, I would call the one person I was closest to before it hit the fan. Just one person, and take the risk. YOU have nothing to be ashamed of. You may have more support out there than you know.

If it doesn't work out, then it's THEIR LOSS.

Because to not love you, is to lose the chance of loving someone very special.

On to the giving and givers. What you said of churchlady made me think of this.

Kahlil Gibran writes of giving. Basically, he says there are three kinds of givers.

The first kind of giver gives because he wants others to see him give. "Look at me! I am giving. I am generous." This is giving, nonetheless, and it is good to give.

The second kind of giver gives because it makes him feel very good about himself. When he gives, he gets something in return, that is, a boost to himself. But this is still giving, and giving is good.

The third kind of giver gives because it is of his nature to give. He just gives, because it is intrinsic to him to give that which he has.

All giving is good, but if we must be a "giver", we should strive to be the third type of giver.

We should try to take giving into our souls, and let it become a part of who we are, a part of our very nature.

With that, I return to lurkdom.

SB... very well said.

Hey everyone. The Lord works in mysterious ways... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I was feeling a little down this afternoon. Not sure why. I called my mom, the kids were playing outside...at one point I just started crying, on my knees asking God to please guide me. What does God want? He can only want my family to be whole, right? Or not? I was begging him to let me know if that's what he wants, or if he wants something different for me. If he wants something different for me, then please, please show me a direction, because all I know is to fight for my family, for my husband.

So that's where I was.

I had leftover soup for dinner. I had just dished up the soup and the boys and I were holding hands around the table saying grace. We had just finished grace...I hadn't even taken a bite of soup, and the phone rang. I asked DS11 who it was on caller ID. "Uncle P."

Isn't that mysterious? I just went on and on today...and of all days, he calls. Out of the blue. After six months.

He asked how I was doing...long pause...I asked what he meant exactly. It was awkward at first...I was hurt, cold. Finally, after a couple of minutes, I finally said, "Do you want to know what I really think?" and he said yes.

So I told him what I wrote here earlier...(even though nia warned me that it might not be that easy)...that if it had been my best friend had left her H high and dry, I would have cut my best friend off and been their for her husband and girls. I was sobbing as I said this.

He said, "Well, LS, maybe it just takes some of us longer to figure that out."

See...you were all right...one of their daughters was really ill for a couple of months, very scary, and P has had a real crisis on conscience relating back to this whole issue with WH and I, it has affected his marriage and his mental health. He told me that he withdrew after "the incident" because he was afraid of getting caught up in something at work (he's also a cop), but then with their daughter's illness and everything else...

I was bawling the whole time...we probably talked for about an hour. He was talking about how, as a Christian, he has felt like he needed to try to be a postive influence on WH...but a couple of interactions recently...and then topped of with WH leaving for a little "vacation" was the last straw. Even as a Christian, he said, he feels like he can no longer do anything or play any role with WH.

He sees WH as a totally lost soul...completely, utterly, INTENSELY self-absorbed. Not conflicted. WH sees the fact that he cheated on me as a joke. P is unable to stomach it any longer, especially when he saw WH with the boys last week, and WH was acting like a goofy adolescent older brother, not like a father. Meanwhile, P has a wife and five kids, one of whom just recovered from a serious illness, a highly stressful job, private school tuition to pay...a different planet.

I agreed with P...told him that I firmly believe that the only way that WH can ever be saved is if God does it. No human can. I encouraged him to kick WH to the curb...that's the Christian thing to do at this point.

Apparently that's sort of what he intends to do when WH returns from AZ. Tell him that he really doesn't have anything in common with WH any longer, and that having a relationship with WH isn't doing anything for him at this point in his life. They have been best friends since 6th grade.

P laughed when I brought up WH leaving his parent's house. "Do you really think he will EVER leave?" He agreed that WH's parents are enabling WH.

P told me that he had called because he wanted to extend the olive branch and to let me know that he and his wife (J) have been thinking about me and praying for me all the time. He also told me that a BUNCH of people at the PD are also praying for me...and are THIS close to kicking WH to the curb as well.

One of WH's former supervisors (SK), who retired a few years back, apparently kicked him to the curb as soon as he heard about the A. SK was WH's mentor...WH ADMIRED him with everything he had...SK was a compassionate man, a moral cop, a loving dad and husband, a pragmatist, a devout Christian...WH thought the WORLD of SK.

SK has told P that he will not speak to WH...that he believes that he should not stand in the way of God having his way with WH. I had said that to P when he was talking about severing ties with WH...THANK YOU, PEP!! That came from you!...as soon as I said it, P told me that was what SK had said as well.

P also said that even if WH ever does let God have his way with him, that I shouldn't expect that he'll come back to me.

I said at least he would be back for the boys. Maybe, said P.

I'm going to post, but I want to keep processing this.

LilSis,

God does show us directions....I'm so glad that your friend P called tonight and you ahve more people backing you than you thought at home.

When you go to bed ask God to guide your dreams... I think that's what I'm going to do tonight. Before The Goddes fairy waves her wand and I wake up a Goddess.

Still

You will never be alone Lilsis. Never. God is good and HE loves you.

So, was God answering my prayer? Earlier in the afternoon, I was on my knees begging for God to show me a direction...really questioning whether or not His plan included my marriage and my family intact. If he had another plan for me, please let me know, please, please.

It seems like divine intervention that P called today...just after my intense, intense prayer and my agonizing just this morning about how I felt so abandoned by P & J as well as the church lady.

So here's P...telling me that WH is such a total and complete loser, that he no longer has any of those redeeming qualities. That he had hoped to have a positive effect on WH, but it has become clear that trying to do so has cost P far more than it has benefited WH. That he now regrets ever giving WH a "pass" by trying to influence him and not kicking him to the curb.

What is the message here?

I know God is trying to tell me something. I asked for him to tell me what to do, P calls out of the blue and talks to me...what do I take from that?

I told P that I had been praying and asking God what to do...and P said, "I think He already has."

Is God reminding me, telling me to let go...to take my own advice and give it over to God? To SERIOUSLY and EARNESTLY do that? To stop fixating at all on WH? That by giving P "permission" to let go, to kick WH to the curb means that I have to do that as well?

I don't know. I'm going to pray on it tonight. It has been an emotional evening...I should go to bed. Maybe prayer and a good night's sleep will help bring some clarity.

Any reactions?

LS:

It is amazing isn't it.

You need what support you can find, and when you feel the lowest, support shows up.

I would recommend a "olive branch" to church lady, and a kind note to your former mentor you froze up with at the restaurant.

Take the new found strengh you have and start expanding the circle.

A short note to church lady to talk one afternoon (give two-three dates and times)and catch-up.

A little longer note to your mentor, or in person if you are close to her office. I would just state your embrassment over the sitch, and you froze up. When you left the restaurant, you realized that you had nothing to be embarrassed about. So, please lets get together for lunch and catch-up.

If both overtures result in NADA, then so be it.

Your interaction with P was also very telling.

And I am so glad that his call came during Plan B and not Plan A. Because, much of what he said is very troubling. His direct interactions with WH and P's interpetations of those actions would have certainly thrown you even farther during Plan A.

However, I am reminded of the clown on the outside who's may be crying on the inside. And I can only hope that is how WH is acting.

I BELIEVE. Still.

Troubling this... (my best Yoda impression)

May the force be with you...

Really.

LG

Looks like he's about to get Plan B'd by a lot of important people to him. That should be a pretty good gut check. I don't know if it will wake him up, but he will feel every kick in the gut he is about to receive.

Also,

At one of the most difficult times in your entire life God has sent a tractor beam of love right to your heart.

Can you feel it?

God does not add confusion. His messages are clear Lilsis. Listen, be still. Do not try and read things about your M into that contact today. Accept it for the gift that it was. God will work in His time and His way with your WH. This is about you right now Lilsis... stay focused on that.

LS,

I just posted a long diatribe on my own thread and came to see what was going on with you and this knocked me flat:


I needed to read this right at this time.

I have to say that YES, God does want that. Get out of the way and let God show up and show out.

It all comes down to one thing:

Is H really dead? Have the years of lies so corrupted, so desecrated, so perverted this person that there is nothing left to redeem?

Because if he's there, he has a long, long, long way to go, so far that I don't know if it can be done...or, at the very least, if it can be done in time to prevent the destruction of our M.

You are right, LG. P's words are troubling. But maybe it's what I needed to hear...that P is letting him go. That WH has become too much even for a friend to stomach, a friend who wants to help, who wanted to save his friend's soul, not necessarily our M.

I don't WANT to let go of my marriage, my family, my husband. I don't WANT my boys to grow up in a broken family. I don't WANT them to have this creep for a role model.

But I've already lost sooo much. My innocence. My trust. My belief in a sacred relationship with my husband. These are priceless, priceless, irreplaceable parts of ME. And WH stole them from me, stole them and smashed them without a backwards glance, without so much as an "I'm sorry," without batting an eye.

Yes, I've gained things too, and they are priceless as well. But at one he11 of a cost. And the balance sheet still feels in the red.

I've worried about this all along...that maybe it's God's will that I move forward alone, find my happiness elsewhere, and that trying so hard to save my M and my family isn't his will...there's something else for me and the boys. That by fighting for my M, I am working AGAINST God's will....???

Is this POSSIBLE? It doesn't seem so, but....I am so conflicted...anyone?

LS,

Wow!

Honey, you have NO idea how many people are rooting for you..praying for you.

You have no idea the plans God has for you. The Bible says we can't even IMAGINE how good they are.

I'm so happy that He answered your prayer, and that it was clear to you that He did. You see, it doesn't matter how strong OUR faith is....what matters is how FAITHFUL HE is! He keeps ALL of His promises!!!

"All things work together for good to those that love Him."

-----------------------------------------

Re church lady: I bring her up again, not b/c I'm concerned about HER happiness, but b/c I am concerned for yours.

I betcha she feels inadequate...unable to help you, LS. It is MUCH easier to make meals, pray, and study the Bible, than it is to reach out to a person suffering from a pain you have never known before. If a person chooses not to push past their own fears to try to reach out, it isn't a sin. They are doing the best they can. Just as we all are doing.

You just don't know what is going on in her life or her head.

Nor does she know what is happening in your life. But, you can choose to reach out to her...connect w/ her again. It is what we all want. Connection w/ others. Reach for understanding... know that she experiences struggles and failures too.

It will help you to heal. When we accept others we will accept ourselves. What we do to others we do to ourselves. For good or bad. Rejection works two ways....inside and out. And so does love....give it away...and you will also experience it in yourself.

It's God's perfect justice.

((((LS))))

~ Marsh

I hope this doesn't confuse you further, but here goes..

God gave man free will. He won't MAKE your WH change. Right now he is helping you because you are asking for it. He can't save WH unles he asks for it. God will send you all the love and support in the world, but he won't MAKE WH change for you. He can't. He doesn't WANT your M to end. He would never WANT that. But in this instance he is doing everything he can to help, but even God won't overstep his own boundaries that he himself implemented.

Does that make any sense?

If it doesn't go watch Bruce Almighty (no that is not where my rant came from, but they got that part right in the movie and a little humor wouldn't hurt)

Sorry the Lord is mysterious, he just sees alot bigger picture than we do.

Hoping for the best

LS:

Another perspective on this:

I've worried about this all along...that maybe it's God's will that I move forward alone, find my happiness elsewhere, and that trying so hard to save my M and my family isn't his will...there's something else for me and the boys. That by fighting for my M, I am working AGAINST God's will....???


Fighting for your M is working against God? I don't think so.

I think that fighting for your M could never be against God. However the methods being used could be against God.

P said that he is "giving up" on WH and thinks he is lost.

If that is what God is telling you, though P, it may be indicating that WH will not respond to LS in Plan A, and that Plan B is the only thing that LS can do. Reaffirming your choice to move to Plan B.

Not necessarilary extending that to the ultimate death of your M.

Know what I Mean?

Mimi has had alot to offer about how "out there" her WH had become, and look, he's back. So, you never know....

PLEASE NOTE: I am NOT putting any words in God's mouth here!! Or that GOD even knows about Plan A/B.

We talked about this in my DivorceCare group. One of the sessions was titled "What does the owner's manual say?"

What is marriage?
One flesh relationship (Gen 2:24)
Covenant commitment (Mal 2:14)
Life-long commitment (1 Cor. 7:39)
God-originated

What is divorce?
God-hated (Mal 2:16)
God allowed in certain circumstances (Matt 19:7-8)

What is Biblical divorce?
Adultery (Matt 5:32)
Departure of nonbeliever (1 Cor. 7:15)

We have the right to divorce, but we are not required to divorce.

The decision-making tool kit
Seek wise, godly counsel (Prov 15:22)
Read the Bible
Pray (Prov 2:6)
Rely on the Holy Spirit
Attempt to heal the marriage (2 Cor 5:17-21)
Employ Matthew 18 process (Matt 18:15-35)

This quote from Jan Northington sums it up:
"There's such a freedom and a peace in knowing you've done the things God has called you to do."

I fell asleep instantly last night and didn't reflect or process or pray at all. I was just too exhausted and couldn't keep my eyes open.

Everything here this AM is so helpful.

Marsh: I found the church lady's work email the other day. That might be a good way to reach out. I think I will do so. No expectation...I will not even ask for a reply...just keeping in mind what P said (and you reiterated) that there are all kinds of things going on in people's heads and lives that keep them from reaching out. I really connected with your explanation...too much pain to deal with.

P said last night...that one thing he has learned over the past several months is that we have such inexhaustable supplies of love to give...there is no limit...it just keeps coming. Like you said...giving love allows us to recieve love.

Although P had his own crisis to deal with (daughter's illness), he was very clear that WH's A has shaken him to his core.

This struck me so deeply: I have FELT as if the boys and I were the only ones (with my immediate family and ILs) who were fighting for our lives on the sea in the midst of Hurricane A. Last night I realized how huge that hurricane is, and how many other people are caught in it...some further from the eye than others, but being tossed about in their little boats nonetheless.

Cajun: You made me smile for the first time in about 12 hours...and it felt good. Getting spiritual guidance from Jim Carrey...the thought is absurd on its face, isn't it? But the English minor in me always looks for those thematic elements, so I would connect I'm sure. I'll rent it...a messge in a comedy sounds like a good idea! (What you said did make sense, though)

And the kicker, from LG:
I truly believe that THIS is exactly where my confused mind couldn't process last night...so thank you for stating it so clearly. THIS IS IT.

I wasn't in a TRUE Plan B. I was still fixating...thinking of H. P WAS THE ANSWER TO MY PRAYER, TELLING ME THAT H IS GONE, GONE, GONE. Telling me to move forward, onward with my life as if he will never return. TRUE ACCEPTANCE. mimi has said this, but I wasn't really FEELING IT. Acceptance, with just a glimmer of hope...but with the balance CLEARLY and overwhelmingly on the side of acceptance.

Remember when I asked for a 2x4? God GAVE ME ONE, didn't he? That is SO amazing to me...so amazing. Have you ever seen or heard of a prayer being answered so OBVIOUSLY? He must have finally figured out that I am resistant to his little nudges and decided to use P as his instrument, in this case, a large piece of Grade A southern yellow pine.

God gave me permission to move ahead, to stop looking back at H. To chart my own life. That He does not expect me, or want me, to "work" at it anymore. Yes, LG, reaffirming my choice to go to Plan B, but also expecting me to EMBRACE Plan B....not just the ACTION of no contact, but the CONCEPT of living for ME.

Eph: Thank you SO much for the scripture references, especially the decision-making toolkit. That appeals to the linear LS. More important, it gives me a specific place to look for specific inspiration. I am such a newbie to the Bible, and I so often just randomly open it up and start reading; I lack context...

Thank you all...thank you so much.

I was confronted by a therapist about being in God's way - that my husband truly needed to hit bottom, and that I was always being his soft place to land... She asked if I thought I was more powerful than God - and to stop working my plan because my husband needs direct contact with God - not thru me.

Since that time I have come to know Heavenly Father in a way that I don't know if I can explain fully here.

But this much I can share. Jesus told the parable of the lost sheep and the prodigal son to remind us that He has the power to find and save us even when we are the most lost that we can be. Once we have been His, we will find things in our lives that eventually lead us back to Him.

Remember - I said back to Him - perhaps not back to our old lives and relationships. My brother is in his 3rd marriage and had been lost to drugs since he was 18. But before that, he knew the truth and wanted to even be a missionary after high school for a while. Thru every trial - when his first wife left with his 2 children to move in with the local drug dealer - when his 2nd wife was arrested trafficking drugs while their son was in the car (and another guy). And then he, himself was arrested for sleeping off a drug's high while parked in a church parking lot with the truck running. Meanwhile God had reached his first wife years before who had recommitted to the Church and had raised their two children with some gospel influence - the daughter had married, her husband had been taught the gospel and committed to the church and they went through a special individual ceremony and then a marriage ceremony 6 months after my brother started rehab as part of his sentence in drug court - my brother could not attend that ceremony because it was held in a sacred place that he knew he was not worthy to go into... his first grandchild was born shortly after... less than a year later, my brother went through a commitment ceremony of his own - almost 30 years after he stepped away from God...

My brother had free will the entire time, yet he sees where God constantly reached out to him in his darkest times and between those times. He saw God's patience and love for him through it all - and that God never gave up on him, even though he had given up on himself.

Accepting God's plan means that you hold no expectations of what His plan holds for your relationship with your husband. All you can do is work to understand His plan for you and your sons and then do it.

Trust that God loves your husband and that no matter how far he strays to escape God's influence, it is still there reaching for him like a shepherd seeks his lost sheep.

The most loving thing that Uncle P can do is to get out of God's way too - and that sounds like what he's done.