Melody Lane-- it's okay, really! (I understand where you're coming from).

Mine is often not the popular opinion around these parts (and I'm okay with that too) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

Namaste, ~Marie

It's all good, Marie. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Marie...for what it's worth...I totally agree with you...and I'm still looking for a response to this, specifically:

SD/Marie's point is exactly why I feel a little uncomfortable with what I said.

So we're clear...I've said to the boys over and over that their dad WAS a good, honorable, admirable man that I hope they grow up to be like at some point. NOW he is behaving in a way that no one recognizes; doing things that EVERYONE acknowledges are WRONG.

When I was in Plan A, I told the boys that I was trying to reach that man that I still believed was inside. When I went to Plan B, I explained that it just became too painful...but that I still love WH and want our family together. I apologized to the boys for having to go into Plan B (not in those terms of course!).

I've never called WH evil (to them...I've probably said it to others in fits of pain)...I've always been very careful not to paint HIM with the brush, just his ACTIONS. The boys will ALWAYS have a relationship with their father, and I want that door left open for him to redeem himself...once he starts making good choices again.

RT on the other hand...it is my sincere wish and prayer that they NEVER EVER have a relationship with her. She destroyed our family (with WH's help, yes) and took their father away from them. HE is part of our family...SHE can be carved out like a tumor...he cannot. IMO, there is no reason to similarly leave the door open with the boys for her to redeem herself.

RT has hurt them in a way that can never be repaired or forgotten. Even if (God willing) WH and I have the most "mimi-like" recovery, those boys will have scars from this experience. WH takes blame, certainly, but he will have to work to recover with the boys, too. RT will NEVER have that; she will never be anything but evil until she repents.

I would have been in the Marie camp...not categorizing people as evil...defining their behaviors as such.

HOWEVER...that's a pretty fine distinction to ask a 8- and 11-year old to make. I don't WANT them to think that there is wiggle room here, no shades of gray. This situation is BAD. Her presence in their lives would be BAD. Her presence in dad's life is BAD. What dad has done is BAD. Hurting people is BAD. Lying is BAD. Breaking promises is BAD. Cheating is BAD.

Add all these BADs up to a 8- or 11-y-o and you've got a BAD person. I don't think that developmentally they have the sophistication to differentiate between the behavior and the person---with someone they DO NOT HAVE A RELATIONSHIP. With their dad, they have and ALWAYS will have a relationship...it's more nuanced. There's no nuance to RT...she does not belong in their lives. Period. Paint her with as broad a brush as you can.

I've done enough reminding them of the "good" dad that I don't think they will go down that road and categorize him that way. And if they do, well, it does fit him right now and he will have to change his behavior in order to move himself out of that category. I will not actively promote them categorizing him that way, but you are right, they may go there on their own.

I'll keep reminding them, and we will keep praying together that dad make good choices...but they can go down that BAD road all they want when it comes to RT.

She is a THREAT to them and their well-being, and I want them to be vigilant. I want them to be VERY CLEAR that I do NOT want them anywhere near her, and how important it is that they tell me if they are near her.

There are BAD people in this world...I gave them some basic examples of the sort that they talk about in school...people who use drugs or who hurt children. I want my kids to be very wary of those people. If it takes painting them with a BIG brush, so be it. RT falls into that category, and is a bigger threat to them right now than any drug fiend, gang banger, or child molester....I can do a lot to protect them from THOSE threats.

I can't protect them from RT is WH is willing to put them in her presence, but I can sure as heck warn them.

I gave a long-winded response...but to me the difference is that they have a relationship with the parent, and can experience WITH the parent the repentance/forgiveness part...WH modeling the repentance, and me modeling the forgiveness. I talk to the boys about that in terms of praying for him to come back into the light and making good choices again.

That would be a wonderful lesson that I long to teach them.

But right NOW...in midst of the "battle" against A...I fear that they boys have now become POTENTIAL pawns by virtue of the email. WH/RT have used the kids in the past to provide cover for their A. Why wouldn't they use them again to "show the world" that the Brady Bunch can happen and will be a great thing? Of course it would NOT...it would HURT the boys. I want them to be wary of the threat.

Maybe it would be appropriate next time I talk about this sort of thing with the boys to tell them that some people MIGHT see WH as evil the same way that we see Mrs RT as evil...but WE don't have to see him that way because we can keep looking and praying for the good side to come back out. We can see him as making bad choices.

I completely recognize the difficulty of this issue...but I have to make a call as a mom and this is where I feel I need to come down.

LilSis,

When my husband broke my arm and had an affair, my children were 8, 5, 3, and 1. The one year old didn't understand anything, of course, but even the 3 year old knew it was wrong that Daddy hurt Mommy and Daddy kissed Sophia on the lips. Personally, I would recommend you avoid any use of words that have judgmental connotations (evil, wrong, etc) and simply describe what your husband is doing. Daddy promised to care for me and now he has broken his promise to me so that he can be with another woman. Let them draw their own conclusions. If you use words that indicate your judgement of your husband's activities, this could get back to your husband and then there is potential for your husband to be letting your children know that you weren't a good wife and he found someone who was, etc. A conversation limited to facts indicates that you don't need to explain morality because it is self-evident. As I said earlier, it was self-evident to my 3 year old.

Five years on, she is now 8. The one year old just turned 6. I told that daughter when she was 4 what Dad did when she was a baby. I wanted her to grow up knowing what had happened and not be surprised if it came out when she was a teenager or older.

Dr. Harley is fond of the quote "Sunlight is the best disinfectant." I think there's a lot of truth in that. There's no need to explain that adultery is wrong, only that your husband made the choice to be with another woman instead of with you and his children. RT was just an accomplice to the choice that was made by your husband.

Personally, I don't think it's worth mentioning to the kids what you think of RT's choices because what really matters is his choices. My father used to say to me, "There are 200,000 Sophias -- in the Twin Cities!" He was trying to be funny, but the point he was trying to make -- which it tooke me a long, long time to understand -- is that Sophia wasn't the problem. In fact, she was pretty much irrelevant.

Looking back, I think the reason why I was so obsessed with Sophia was that I didn't want to face that it was my husband who had made the choices he did. I wanted to blame her. Actually, so did he. All during his affair, he'd tell me things like "She called me, and it would be rude of me to hang up." I got a broken arm because I threatened to call her to stop. Can you believe it -- I even blamed her for the broken arm (used to call the scar the SophiaScar) because I thought she was the problem. I called her within two minutes of getting the broken arm to tell her he'd broken my arm and to tell her "If you want to f** someone, f** someone other than the father of four children." I'm not one to swear. Admittedly, I was quite upset because I couldn't move my wrist and was in a lot of pain. BUT the FACT IS that Sophia DID NOT break my arm and DID NOT coerce Tom to have an affair with her.

I wish Lemonman was responding to you. I thought of him as the master of addressing what I have come to think of as BS fog.

I really feel for you. I don't want to be harsh, but I do want to make it easier for you to eventually reconcile. In order to do that, you're going to need to face the reality that your husband and your husband alone made the choice to betray you.

Cherishing

I am w/ marie and fiat on this one.

there are many reasons i don't care for labelling....and i really don't understand labelling RT (or any OP) as the evil one and not your WH.....does not sit well w/ me.
and
personally, I don't like that your boys might see it as giving the "man" adulterer a free pass....."your Daddy's brain was altered by THAT EVIL WOMAN."
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

but, obviously there are many people who think that way and approve of this approach and that's your choice, LS.

Cherishing:
I am afraid of the BS fog. I don't even recognize it. I can't really tell it's there.

So I'll tell you what I see in this foggy place...what things look like to me and maybe you can tell me what the reality is? Because I'd like to know the reality.

WH is such a master manipulator. He speaks SO sincerely, so gently, so convincingly, with such "pain" in his voice. Everything that comes out is complete CRAP, but it is so believeable. Even some adults have a hard time getting past the delivery (my sister included...she didn't recognize it until later). MIL certainly has a hard time getting past the delivery. She doesn't fall for the crap, but she has all this empathy because he SOUNDS so conflicted.

Blech. It's Oscar worthy, really.

I guess this is what the bottm line is...I am afraid that the boys will also not see past the delivery. That WH will somehow state his case so convincingly that they will fall for it,

"Boys, you know Mrs. RT is a nice lady, and you always had fun with her kids. Mrs. RT never hurt you; she was always nice to you and you liked her. There is no reason for you to be afraid of her or to feel badly about being around her. That's silly, and it was mean of your mom to say that. I love Mrs. RT; she makes me happy. You mom didn't make me happy anymore. You want me to be happy, don't you? So let's go be the Brady Bunch."

I am afraid that they will be more confused by that....their DAD telling them (oh so convincingly remember) that what he's doing is okay, when their internal barometers say NO WAY. If I don't reassure them that their internal barometer is working just FINE, and the MINE and everyone else's says the exact SAME THING, will they question their own intuition?

I do not want them to have ANY sense of ambiguity about this, or have to wonder if their intuition is off: "After all, Dad says it's okay. Mom's not saying anything, so maybe Dad is right. That little voice in the back of my head must be wrong, because I love my Dad, he loves me, and I do want him to be happy. If I don't make him happy, he will leave me."

If that's foggy thinking...I really want to know, because it sure feels like reality to me....

????

I so agree with this !


Sis - hang in there honey... I know it is hard, I really do... sending thousands of hugs your way

car

LilSis,
It is foggy reasoning. It plays right into the thinking of the WS.

The WS is thinking: "Who makes me happier?" If it is RT, then I belong with RT, and I made a mistake in marrying LilSis.

What you are doing, in your BS fog, is trying to compete with RT. You are being moral. She is being evil.

Let me tell you -- I didn't wake up until 15 months after my arm was broken. I had such a severe injury that I required three surgeries and 15 months of treatment. My very last appointment had to be rescheduled because I ended in a civil court dealing with a harassment order from Sophia, which I accepted. It was a gift from her, really, because I finally, finally woke up to that fact that the problem was not in any way, shape or form, "She's calling me..." The problem was that he cared about her and by caring for her he chose not to care for me.

RT could be very nice. Lots of people are nice. RT could make your husband very happy. The boys may well see that.

THAT'S NOT THE POINT.

Stick to the point. The point is that your husband married you and, when he married you, he promised to be faithful to you for life. He made a promise to you, and he broke it. What you want to tell your kids is:
1. Your husband made a promise to you.
2. He broke that promise by going to be with RT.
3. You are very hurt by his choice.
4. You did not want him to make that choice.
5. You would be happy to have him back if he chose not to be with RT.
6. You are so hurt by what he is doing now that you have chosen to stay completely away from him.

ANYTHING you say about RT distracts from the focus that your husband made a choice.

Sophia's husband, right away, told me something that I simply did not understand: "Your problem is Tom. It's not Sophia. If it hadn't been Sophia, it would have been some other woman."

The reason why I made Sophia so central to my reality, like you seem to be doing, is that I didn't want to face the reality that my husband made a choice which he knew would hurt me. If you aren't willing to face that reality, then you won't be willing to face the reality that he is able to make different choices. Instead, all your effort will be in convincing your children -- and perhaps him through your children -- that RT is evil. The whole point is that you shouldn't have to compete with her or anyone else on the face of the planet. He made a vow to you, and he broke it. Focus on that. Tell your children that.

Right now, your reality is that you have to compete against and protect your husband from every female on the face of the planet. That's a tough assignment. My IC once told me, "You don't want to be in a marriage in which part of your job is to protect your husband from another affair." Very true. Imagine that he did return today, and you were still in the BS fog that the only problem with your husband is that he was corrupted -- temporarily -- by RT. For the rest of your life, part of your job would be to identify and annihilate any potential RT who may come into contact with your husband. Can you imagine living the way you are today for the rest of your life? Can you imagine having your husband home and you grilling him about what women he can into contact with during the day and then trying to speculate on whether or not they are potential evil RTs?

That's not your job. That's his job. Bottom line: He made a choice. He can make a different choice. In the meantime, you are removing yourself from him.

Cherishing

LS, you did exactly the right thing in telling your children that RT is evil and that affairs are evil. Your children need to know the truth, and bastardizing the English language, as some have suggested, will not help in that regard.

If you simply tell children the facts but not the moral ramifications of the act, then you are neglecting your responsibility to teach the children right from wrong. THAT IS PARENTAL NEGLECT. Children do not fully understand right from wrong and it is a parents JOB to teach them this.

They do not have the experience or mature judgement to figure out the moral ramifications on their own and if it is not said that it is WRONG or EVIL, they will doubt their instincts of right and wrong. They need those instincts VALIDATED and DIRECTED. They will just grow up morally confused with a warped sense of reality if you just talk about the act as if it were no different than going to the grocery store for Tampons. Good grief, I can't think of anything more idiotic and confusing.

You didn't trash your h, but you did leave them to conlude that while their dad is usually a good man, he sure isn't acting like one now by pursuing an affair with a married woman and abandoning his family. If that is not made clear, as you have done, then maybe they will grow up to "be good men," too and have affairs with married women and abandon their families.

You did GREAT, LS, and don't let anyone convince you otherwise. You used PERFECT judgment and did a very good, brave thing for your boys. Stick to your guns and move forward!

I like Cherishing's POV on this. Focus is key.
RT has no part in YOUR life; your WH does. Focus on him. Yes, RT is a real piece of work, we all know that, but your children aren't experiencing any LOSS having to do directly with her. Their loss is for their father.

In my case, I don't believe that my WH is evil. I believe that he is WEAK, Short-sighted, selfish, and many other things. I've been at this for a while now, though, so my perspective is a little different.

Your children are fully aware of the sitch, it is your job to help them navigate and to guide them in right and wrong. You are right, there is no gray area in this. RT is WRONG, and the choices she has made have caused pain to many around her, especially her own family and your family. You do not want your children to be involved with someone who cannot make good choices for her own family, much less someone else's.

Just for point of clarification - I never thought an adult wrote the child's email, just that an adult was THERE at the time.

Still think that.


Anyway, back to the story, which I'm catching up on.....I've been away for a couple days, and this is moving fast!
SB

How about looking into Children's Bibles for them?

I wonder how Ephesians is interpreted in Children's Bibles?

Ephesians deals with our battle against EVIL FORCES in the world.

I didn't consider my H EVIL but I thought he was in the clutches of Satan..my POV...

ditto

And I agree about the E-MAIL..

That's why I think it's so SICKENING AND DISGUSTING...

And that's why I consider RT particularly EVIL...YES, EVIL..to do that to your OWN CHILD...

If RT is evil, why isn't Dad?


I would think that has got to be very confusing for boys....and girls too.
what message is that sending ??

what does that teach them?
Adultery leaves scars, no question.....but placing the majority of
blame on the EVIL OP just doesn't make sense to me and it does not teach children that they are responsible for thier own actions......which I think would be the lesson that LS wants to teach her boys.

THERE ARE EVIL PEOPLE IN THIS WORLD..

And we all can become INFLUENCED by EVIL..

PEP..or anyone else..if you are around, pull up the PEOPLE OF THE LIE THREAD..

I'm going out for the day...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Are you saying that he is NOT? Please tell me how having an affair with a married woman and abandoning your family is GOOD, nia? What kind of lesson does that teach children? Please explain why you even think it would be different because I don't get what you mean.

Cherishing:
I do understand your POV, and I agree...it isn't about RT, and I don't truly intend for it to be about RT. Up until this point, it HAS NOT been about RT at all.

My ONLY reason for going down this road with the boys RIGHT NOW is that it seems to be approaching a point at which WH feels he can circumvent our agreement that there be no contact between the kids and RT. He is fully aware--as are our attorneys--that if he violates that verbal agreement, I will go to court to get it included in our current order for support.

I have RARELY in the past even brought RT up with the kids....very, very rarely, and just in passing. Yesterday was the first time I have said her name ("Mrs. RT") to them since D-day.

If WH DOES bring them into her "sphere," I NEED TO KNOW IT. I MUST be certain that the kids KNOW how ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL it is that I know it. I want them to understand WHY I need to know it.

DS11 revealed to me yesterday that a couple of months ago (in Plan A) WH brought them sledding, and lo and behold, the RT's were there...Mrs. RT and her kids! They didn't sled together, but the did borrow a sled from them. This was the first I had heard of that encounter!!

Either DS11 didn't think the encounter was significant enough to mention, or he was afraid to tell me, or WH told him not to tell me.

No matter the reason that he did not tell me...THIS CANNOT HAPPEN AGAIN. WH and I have an agreement--sanctioned by our lawyers--and I will not allow it to be violated. I won't know if it HAS been violated if the kids (for whatever reason) DON'T TELL ME WHAT GOES ON.

So the bottom line....my primary goal here...is to be ABSOLUTELY CRYSTAL CLEAR with the boys that I need to know this info in order to protect them. Protect them from what? Protect them from being in the presence of people who are willing to HURT them, of people who make wrong, hurtful choices, who want to make them believe that wrong, hurtful choices, breaking promises, and commiting adultery is perfectly fine.

Yes, their dad fits that description. But they need to and--more important--WANT to spend time with their dad, and we talk about their dad and his inner goodness all the time. THERE IS NO LEGITIMATE REASON for them to spend ANY time with RT. I could care less abut her inner goodness. I'll let her XH deal with that with their kids. I see no responsiblity to whitewash her for MY kids.