LilSis .... you did JUST fine...

it's so easy
to read your interpretation of your discussion with your kids.... and pick out certain words

but you did this fine thing .... and you did it well

there will be future discussions with your boys, as things evolve, when you can fine-tune any questions they have about this "evilness"

YOU 'DA MOM

and the ADULTERY is the enemy

like a drug pusher .... adulterors say nice things about their drug to make everyone think the high from the drug is worth it

you are fighting drug pushers

this is how Pep sees it

YOU did GOOD

DRUGS = bad
DRUG PUSHERS = bad & can't be believed ... they are "stoned"

X-DRUG pushers = have potential to return to good ... wait & see

Pep

right now their DAD is a drug pusher if he tries to normalize adultery and wants his kids to be HAPPY that their home is torn apart by this particular DRUG that makes DAD soooooooooo "happy"

makes me sick

And think the LORD'S PRAYER..don't your boys know that?

Everyday we pray.."DELIVER US FROM EVIL"....

makes it "OK" for them to become adulterous as grown men

and THAT, my friends, is EVIL

wow, you really misunderstood me.
sorry if i was unclear.

i am more concerned that the boys would view Dad as the victim....not responsible for his own evil choices.

I feel if you are going to call RT evil and adultery evil.......you may as well call Dad evil too.

I think he is getting off too easy....getting out of jail free because he was taken advantage of by an EVIL WOMAN.

I also think it makes him look like a [censored]!
but, i don't think the boys will see that since they so badly want him to be their hero.

I know that LS has been doubly betrayed here....RT was posing as a friend when she got her claws into LS's H.....she is AWFUL in my book....but,I just bet if it wasn't LS it would have been some OW.


I would want my children to know that Dad (and any adult) is RESPONSIBLE for his Bad choice to choose the evil!!

Gotcha! And agree 100%, Nia.

THAT is why I DON"T GET RT is evil... but NOT Dad.
He was just suckered in by an EVIL WOMAN....not the mans fault....he always has that excuse if he doesn't leanr to take RESPONSIBILITY for his choice to choose 'evil'....especially if it is dressed up real pretty.......just couldn't help himself.

I agree, nia. And I have never given them ANY reason to believe otherwise. I have said over and over that even though I believe he is good inside, he is making very, very destructive and bad choices, he's changed, he's doing something very wrong and needs to begin to do right, ultimately he is hurting himself as well as those who truly love him.

As I said, RT has NEVER BEEN part of the equation or discussion with them AT ALL until NOW...and I have only brought her up now because I fear that she may be brought into their "sphere," and I want them to be very clear on my opinion of her, and not to be taken in by her. I don't feel the need to equivocate when it comes to her...exactly because of her INSIGNIFICANCE to them...as Cherishing was saying...it's not about her, but they need to be very wary of her anyway.

That's all.

Does anyone see the distinction?

I do, LS. And you did the right thing. They need to know the truth about her if they are going to be exposed to her. I wish my mother had done the same when I was a little girl and I was introduced my father's various and sundry ho's.

I get it, you are voicing your opinion of HER (RT) as a seperate entity.

Sis, I think you are doing a FINE job with those young boys. Your openness will carry a lot of weight with them.

Sis,

Your WH already knows that RT is evil.

He knows this because he sees his own evilness when he places his head upon his pillow in the dark. He faces this demon at night. When a good person does something that goes against his innermost self, there is conflict, and he does struggle internally - and he faces that struggle right before he tries to sleep. He knows evil because he faces it in the mirror.

As for your children, and their "confusion". I work in the cognitive sciences, with children as my primary clientele. Part of my work includes teaching people how to think (yes, I told you I have a very unique job!). Children have remarkable minds, and actually know more about morality than adults would give them credit for. They do tend to think in somewhat black-and-white terms - this act is good, this is bad. With kids, a person has to act extremely badly ONCE before the child writes him off as a "bad person", or he has to have that *bad* radar coming off of him which kids seem to sense BTW, or more frequently from what I have seen in practice is that kids write off a person as "bad" when they have REPEATED bad behaviors over time. (I'm giving highlights here, watered down)


It's more an adult issue where the semantics come into play. Kids don't so much get hung up on the exact meanings of words (there are language development issues and cognitive development issues which preclude this in most cases), so don't worry so much about that aspect of your interaction.

They see what they see - they watch the adults doing what they are doing - which is making the bad choices, day after day after day. They will draw their conclusions based on that, and they will know what is good or bad based on their observations. The kids know. What the adults SAY about it will not do much to change what the kids know to be true inside themselves - but what the adults say WILL impact how the kids feel about the trustworthiness of the adults, and make for difficulties in the relationships with those adults if the adults lie or try to "color" the truth.

The kids will make decisions regarding who to trust based on what any given adult says with direct relation to how it plays with what the kids believe to be true and what is observed about the situation. The kid then decides whether or not the adult is coloring the truth, telling the truth, trying to protect the child, trying to protect the adult, trying to manipulate the child (teenagers in particular make this judgement), etc.

I'm pointing this out, because IF the OW in this case is nice to them, you should probably acknowledge that to them. If you are trying to protect them, they should know that, too. It's important that the older son understand your motivations, because he is reaching a cognitive stage where he will begin making certain changes internally, and his thought processes will begin to change in this regard.

It would help also to state your truth about how you feel about what her role in this whole thing was (at their level, and OVER TIME, of course, when appropriate. This isn't something that can happen in one conversation.) Because to deny it will not ring true with them, and will put you at a disadvantage later, especially when they are teenagers. It will be very important for you later to have that honesty in place now. To use too broad a brush and paint her as "completely evil" will not ring true with them if they believe other sides of her - whether or not you know/believe otherwise.

(Also, the above is for children about 8-9 or so and older, but does begin to develop in younger children and is seen much younger. It is readily observable in very young children, but it takes the older children to have the metalinguistic and metacognitive skills for the discussions to take place with them for the studies.......so we can better understand it.)

Counseling for them would probably be advisable, or a divorce support group, if you suspect they are reaching a point of need.


Just some words of advice from someone who has seen this from the child's side too many times.

Great job on the talk Sis. It's always easy to monday morning quarterback. You did what you felt was right and your talk was from the heart.

Kids are so much smarter then we give them credit for.

SB, as a child who was raised in a morally degenerate/neutral atmosphere and was in counseling for years because of it, I very much agree with you that children DO sense right from wrong. We instinctively know right from wrong. The problem comes in, however, when those instincts are not validated or guided by a responsible adult. When they are not validated, children tend to REJECT them and instead, doubt their own instincts and themselves. Those very instincts disappear after they are suppressed for years, and confusion ensues.

For example, my father was a serial cheater who flaunted his affairs. My mother never stated that it was wrong for my father to have affairs. I sensed that this was very wrong, but since my instincts were never validated, concluded that I must be a very stupid girl and grew to DOUBT my instincts. This is what led to great moral confusion and a warped sense of reality. This grew much worse when I became a teenager and went to live with my father.

Because my mother never told me the truth about my father or gave me any moral guidance, I was very receptive to destructive things he introduced to my life like smoking pot, drinking, gambling, etc. My father took my sister and I partying in Mexico when were young teenagers. [he gave us $50 to pay off the Mexicales in case they stopped us] Since I had no moral training, other than "whatever feels good, do it," I saw absolutely nothing wrong with this lifestyle. My instincts about right and wrong had been suppressed for so long that they no longer existed.

Rather, the lesson I learned was that a) I was a stupid girl b) my instincts were apparently wrong since the adults in my life did not see what I saw c) the highest moral code was WHATEVER FEELS GOOD, DO IT. Seek your "happiness" at all costs.

It cost me years of fumbling through life to recover from such a deficit of moral training and to learn to trust my instincts again. I learned that I was not ever a stupid girl, but was the victim of gross parental neglect. And to not give a child much needed moral training is child abuse; it is to send a child out in the world completely ill equipped. This is why I believe it is extremely important for parents to train their children MORALLY and to validate their instincts of right and wrong. Silence will never achieve that goal. Silence only creates an empty vacuum that must be filled by something.

p.s. I should add that my brother adopted the moral code of "whatever feels good, do it," and is a serial cheater. He abandoned his wife and autistic son some years ago for an OW. As my dad told my brother, "son, you have to do whatever makes you happy." My SIL had a nervous breakdown and was hospitalized over this. My brother still has never learned right from wrong and today lives with OW #3, a married woman who left her H and 3 children.

Let's look at the difference between Dad and RT from a Love Bank perspective:

Dad has two Love Banks that he's made many deposits into. He also, undeniably, has been making many withdrawals from them lately.

RT has only been making withdrawals from two Banks that she has no business with, at all. She's used these children to further her A with their father, period.

LS is just validating that RT's presence in their lives is harmful. Call it evil, whatever... she is just verifying that this person is no good for them and has no right to be in their lives, based on past and current behaviors.

Good job Mom!

LS,

Rough waters here. Good reasons to fear.

Your taking the pro-protective parent position. Rightly so!

You were dealt a pretty underhanded lowest of blows!

I hope your able to re-consider contacting the Harley's for professional guidance & advocacy steering advice.

These matters are highly complicated.

So deeply personal.

I know you have been going full tilt.

Thanks everyone for the feedback and concern. This is a really interesting issue...couple of points I'd like to highlight.

SB is correct in that this is an on-going sort of conversation...little bits here and there, nothing overwhelming. The conversation yesterday afternoon was about three minutes. Maybe tomorrow I'll say something more, just sort of clearing things up a little...

"You know, I've been thinking. I'm sure Mrs. RT's kids love her just like you love Dad. But she and dad are both doing something that is wrong, and her kids are being hurt in the same way that you are being hurt. They are BOTH hurting all five of you kids. It's my job as your mom to protect YOU two from hurt as much as I can.

You both know that just because someone is nice to you, or says things that make you feel good, doesn't mean that person is someone who is GOOD for you or really wants what's best for you. Being nice doesn't mean that person isn't hurting you at the same time. Like a stranger who wants to give you candy or someone at school who is nice to you so that you will do something that you KNOW is wrong. You have to always be careful of people who want you to do something that is wrong, or when people want you to look the other way when they do something that is wrong.

What's wrong is wrong, but people still like to make excuses and pretend things aren't wrong when they ARE.

With Dad, you know what he's doing is wrong and is hurtful to you. But he's still your dad and you love him and you want to be with him, and we can pray that he starts making better choices and comes back home. With Mrs. RT, you also know what she's doing is wrong and hurtful to you, but you don't love her and there is no reason you should EVER be around her. That's why I want to be sure you let me know if Dad EVER brings you around her."

Something like that...leave it and move on.

The boys and I went to the school carnival, and now in the office to take care of a few things. The boys love running around between the cubes playing snipers and blasters...gotta go before I get stunned.

That's perfect, LS.

They are so lucky to have you as their mom.

~ Marsh

TJ --

((( Mel ))) you know I love ya

Sis I think you are doing fine with your kids.

At the right moment....with my boys.... I wrapped my arms around them and swore that I would never ever leave them.

I also gave them permission to love their dad. I never wanted them to feel that they were not free to feel their feelings or to feel that their feelings were wrong.