I like that response.

Should the kids ever come out one day and ask point-blank the question of if she is evil why isn't Dad? I would not dodge it or whitewash him, either.

Her choices have defined her as an evil person, his choices have defined him as an evil person. God is able to change either or both into a good person again if they let Him.

When their dad starts listening to God again, and chooses not to be evil/to do evil things, that will be wonderful. When/if Mrs. RT listens to God again, that will be wonderful, but her choices have still cut her off from being a good friend to our family forever, here on earth.

I firmly believe in calling a spade a spade.

Judging = deciding I am better than someone, because I am not currently doing the same wrong thing.

Judging = deciding that so-and-so will surely burn in ****** for their sins, as they are obviously never going to change.

We are all evil until God changes us. I was evil until God changed me. Every good person in the Bible was evil until God changed them.

"By their fruits ye shall know them."

We ARE to judge fruits....just not who has more worth in God's sight, or anyone's final destination.

I think you're doing very well, LS. What you posted above sounds really good.

Happy Sunday LS.

What you posted sounded honest, respectful, and non-judgmental. When your children are older, they can know that what their Dad is doing was a choice, and they can make different choices.
Cherishing

Neak...
That was perfect. Very simple and to the point. This whole discussion can tend to get very philosophical, but for me, it all boils down to just what you said. Thanks.

BR: That's the gist of it, isn't it? I sort of did that yesterday afternoon.

After we left the office we started walking around downtown. It was a beautiful warm sunny day. The boys got cream sodas and I got a coffee and we wandered around, checking out the sculptures, looking at pretty architecture and watching the salmon make it through the fish ladder.

At one point we were sitting there on a park bench and I dropped a few of the nuggets that I stated above, talking about how dad still loves them and we love dad, and DS8 pipes up (in his little lispy voice), "he's just doing really horrible things right now."

I moderated my tone a bit about Mrs. RT (feeling like the words and the tone I used about her was maybe a little scary and over the top the other day). Not letting her off the hook, just saying that her kids love her, too, and she might act nice, but it doesn't change what she and dad are doing and that's wrong and hurtful to all five kids.

We will always love dad so we will need to keep praying that he is changed so that he begins to make right choices and we can start being a family again. But with Mrs. RT, there is and never will be a place in their lives for someone who has hurt them in this way. As their mom, I need to protect them from that.

They pinky promised that they'd tell me if they ever saw her, and we left it at that.

As we were walking along, I stopped DS11, had him look me in the eye, and told him that he can talk to me about ANYTHING, and I want him to come to me no matter what, I will never stop loving him so he should never be afraid. He got this big satisfied, content looking smile and said, "I know, Mom." And we hugged and held hands as we kept walking. I told DS8 the same thing (shorter version)...who gave me more of a blank look as if that goes without saying, he never would think otherwise. "Yep, I know," and he skips off to go climb on something.

It was a really, really nice day that unfortunately deteriorated once we got back home...my mom called in one of her moods complaining about my sister, and we ended up arguing (she hung up on me!). Then a short while later (just as the boys and I were getting ready to watch a movie in the attic), my sister called crying, and I ended up talking to her for an hour; meantime the boys start arguing and a sticky, sugary drink got spilled all over everything and DS8 stomped off and refused to watch the movie...blah, blah, blah. (all while I was on the phone with my sister, who's still crying)

I ended up telling them to get right to bed and yelling at them about how upset I am that the day ended this way, how they seem to be acting very selfishly...I was trying to help their aunt and they couldn't manage to get along for one hour. The attic is a disaster. I had asked them to clean up around the yard this afternoon for like the 100th time and of course they didn't do it. They need to step up, take some responsibilities, and stop making things harder for me.

I asked them, Do I need to yell? Do I need to get mean and angry? Because I sure don't like to do that, but sometimes I feel that I am talking and apparently no sound is coming out because I am completely ignored. Good night, I will see you in the morning.

DS11 got out a bed a few minutes later to give me a hug and tell me he was sorry; I told him it's okay, ILY and go to bed.

They seemed happy this morning, and I have already reminded them that we have church today...usually that ends up being a battle and we end up late...ugh. Ahhh...the joys of parenthood.

LilSis,

My favorite lines from the Bible are "The truth shall set you free" and "Be not afraid."

If you keep the lines of communication open for your children, that may be all the protection you can offer them, but that is A LOT.

Cherishing

Lilsis

It's great that your kids are acting normal (fighting when you are on the phone and having temper tantrums). That means they are doing okay. Although, it can seem like a "severe mercy" as my mom is fond of saying (she stole the quote from C.S. Lewis).

I think you are doing an awesome job.

Your mom sounds a bit like my best friend since high school's mom. She could ruin a day in a phone call. My friend started telling herself that her mom's behavior wasn't really a personal attack but rather a very predictible behavior. When she was able to take the focus off the emotional response (personal), it was easier for her to say, "sorry Mom, I gotta go."

I think you are absolutely on the mark by telling DS11 he can talk with you about anything. My DD15 was really struggling with all the emotions he had after his dad leaving and my cancer diagnosis 5 weeks later. During treatment, my fatigue (which is a complete change of personality for me) rattled him. But, being male, he wanted to protect me from his feelings. He was in IC, but I finally said to him "DS, a mom knows when something is bothering her kids. You aren't protecting me from anything by keeping it in." He spilled to me that he was afraid he would have no place if something happened to me. I was able to explain that my treatments are to give me an even better chance that the cancer won't return, not to cure it. It hadn't spread. He "understood"in his head that it hadn't spread, but seeing me so tired made that hard to "understand" in his heart.

Our conversations have completely changed since then. He is turning into an amazing, deeply spiritual young man. I'm glad I had a twin brother growing up. It helps me understand "boy" better. Also, I can just call him for consultations.

Hang in there! Things do finally come to pass. My last chemo is this Thursday.

LS,

Wonderful safe-proofing conversations with your kids. I loved you empathized/emphasized the distinction, just because some one is nice to us, does it mean they are good.

Nice and good don't always add up.

Unfortunately, we can’t always be there to protect our children in schools and negative influences our children come across.

Not sure if you are aware of the book. Protecting the Gift: Keeping Children & Teenagers Safe, (Parents Sane)

By Gavin De Becker.

Mel, good points - that's why I wanted to be sure Sis told them the truth about things, and took the time to do it. One conversation isn't enough, and they will need to know that adults can ACT one way, and TALK another way, and their motivations can be something OTHER again. This is hard stuff, but her DS11 is entering that phase where he will be able to understand and question motivations of adults.

I like that Sis is telling them the truth about how evil people can be. Because people can be evil. Kids do know this - they do sense it. It's just so hard when it is someone in their life, and they see two sides of things happening.

You and I agree on this. My childhood - let's just say it's one for the books. Maybe a Jerry Springer week-long special.

Also another reason for counseling - so they can retain their love for dad, and sort things out during the teenage years. That's really when some of this stuff hits the hardest.

SB

LS,

Since you and your sons have gone through a great deal of loss.

I wonder if you have any type of grief/share support in your area, sensitive programs which are designed for children in mind.

Might be helpful for all of you to receive additional support.


A good one is the Rainbows Program.

RAINBOWS is an international, not-for-profit organization that fosters emotional healing among children grieving a loss from a life-altering crisis.

http://www.rainbows.org/rainbows.html

Sis,

I was going to post to you and suggest the exact conversation you already had!!!!

Over time, your kids will be fine. Because you have the instincts of a mama bear. So do your cubs, I suspect.

DS11 sounds like he's a man in his heart already. A good man.

SB

LS,

I wonder if your mother and sister have received any grief support since the passing of your father?

The triangulation episode with your mother/sister/yourself the other day. May indicate they are having unresolved grief issues.

I found it very difficult to deal with my mother after my father passed away. The entire burden fell on my shoulders. Enduring a stressful heavy wk load.

Plus I was going through a heavy crisis with my ex. I wasn’t even aware he was having more affairs at the time. His adverse behavior & anger issuses were so off the wall.

Why, I was sooo relieved to have Dr. Harley's, support when things spun out of control.

I needed my mother to take some ownership of her grief issues.

Grief Share recovery program, may be helpful if your mom/sister are still grieving, if they are receptive.

You don't need all this stress right now.


Grief Share Recovery Program.

http://www.griefshare.com/

Hey! The boys were ready for church this morning and not only that--they were cheerful! I think a little guilt was working its magic, maybe?

I have forgotten to mention that both boys are in groups at school for "families in change." Both are run by social workers. I have spoken to each social worker about the situation (including ALL the details) so they know the real scoop. Both have assured me that they would let me know if they noticed anything that would indicate problems were beginning to develop. Both teachers know that WH filed for D, but not why. I had conferences a couple of weeks ago and both are doing very well academically and socially...so I guess they are okay for the time being.

Now when adolesence hits...well, heck, they can hang out with their dad! He's in just the same place emotionally! Won't that be fun! They can cruise chicks and sneak smokes. Ewww.

Yeah...my mom and my sister. My sister just finalized her divorce (not A-related, just a bad match from the start), and she moved in with my mom. On paper, it is great...my mom has this big house that she can't really keep up with on her own, financially it's great for my sister, they can share meals and support one another emotionally.

Unfortunately, my mom is difficult. My sisters and I have this way of helping each other run interference with mom. Mom is SOOO dogmatic, no matter how flexible my sister is, she can never be...hmmmm...Perfect??

When my dad was alive, he moderated her to a degree. Now that influence isn't there...

She has tried therapy, but as my sister and I discussed last night, it doesn't do her much good. Mom always has all the answers (the RIGHT ones), and no one can ever tell her she's wrong. She gets incredibly defensive, and is rarely open to any kind of criticism.

I love her dearly, and I often do say, "I can't talk right now." Then there are times like last night, when she is just going OFF, and my sister is the unfortunate target. I know what that feels like. I try to talk to my mom and quietly reason with her, but there's just no reasoning, she gets all defensive. Then I talk to my sister to let her know that I know just how she feels and provide whatever comfort I can.

There are PLENTY of unresolved issues between my mom and all of us girls (four of us). Grief is just one....unfortunately, my experience with my mom is that she's not really interested so much in resolving issues as she is in making sure that her point of view is totally validated, and anyone else's is totally discredited.

Actually, it's not that stressful...I feel good supporting my sister emotionally...she has done the same for me. I feel CAPABLE in that role, and it's nice to focus on someone else's problems for a change. It was stressful last night because the kids were acting up at the same time.

On a lighter note...my SIL and I had a really enjoyable chat this afternoon at the park where we ate Subway after church. The boys (her two and my two) ran off and explored the entire time, leaving us alone with her baby...so I guess not everyone in my life has major issues!

RE: your talk with your boys-- I think you did really well with your revised script. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Continued best of luck to you and your family, ~Marie

Thanks, Marie.

Made my reservations for DC!! I also cleared it with my PO last week, so the only hurdle left is letting WH know. He will miss his one evening with them when he usually has them after school until 8:30.

Since he just went three weeks without seeing them, and only two phone calls during that time, I'm sure missing a few hours while we all go to DC won't be too big a hardship for him. More time for his fix.

We are staying in Gaithersburg, about 3 miles from the Metro Station. It's pretty far out, but I got an incredible deal on a place that had wonderful reviews on Trip Advisor, Travelocity and Expedia. I'm sort of paranoid when it comes to hotels and the potential ICK factor. And it has an indoor pool...so the boys will be in heaven. And hot breakfast, so I can load the kids up before the 1/2 hour train ride to the Metro Center.

Now that we have a place, I can start getting excited about this trip.

I got the oil changed in the Vibe about a month ago. It has new tires. Anything else I should do to have it ready for the trip? How often does a car need a tune up? Should I just bring it up to the dealership and ask them to give me whatever mileage maintence?

It's times like this that I think of my dad. He'd be right on top of all that, making sure I was taking care of things like that...or at least I could call him for advice. I've got no one now.

I have no men in my life at all anymore. It's a pretty big void.

Get a repair/maintenance manual for your car. When time hangs heavy on your hands, teach yourself how to give it a tune-up: change plugs and wires (this is pretty easy), do oil changes (a little harder, but easier the second and third times), and when you feel really brave, maybe even brakes. You can even let the boys help you once you have tried it once and feel comfortable. (This will hopefully avoid their male tendency to watch women and tell them how it ought to be done.)

I am not a super great mechanic, but if I can take it apart, I can put it back together. It's even kinda fun! Dish soap takes the grease right off my hands.

Your car may need a tune-up, plugs, wires, and maybe filters. Asking the dealership would be a good idea.

MB - the all-purpose stop for marriage advice, affair busting help, and 24 hour auto maintenance hotline. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

good morning.
i am excited about your DC trip.
i have a BIL in DC...oh, never mind! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

you are doing great.

I had info I needed to share with WH regarding the boys and some schedule changes due to things I have at work and no school on Friday. This is what my intermediary emailed to him:

LS has a meeting tomorrow until 8:30 so please bring the boys home at 8:45 instead of 8:30.
On Friday, you may pick the boys up at the house at 2:00 p.m.
LS and the boys will be gone over spring break, they will not be home for your scheduled day, they will be home on Sunday, April 8.

She didn’t feel it was necessary to tell him where we were going…she’s got an attitude when it comes to WH (understandably). She told me that he emailed back, “Where are DS11 and DS8 going to be during Spring Break?”
She emailed back “Washington DC” and left it at that. She WANTED to say, “what do you care, you left for 2 weeks and didn’t talk to them, what will a few days be?”

I haven’t heard if she got any other response.

I am being very dark. I really don't think it troubles him in the least. Somebody care to remind me again how awful it is to be a WS on the receiving end of a Plan B?

Hey, ya know, it would be great if someone on the receiving end of plan B could tell what it was really like. I am not sure I have ever read a FWS post here that actually experienced it. It would be good to have a few for the record.

If anyone knows of any of those posts or threads in the archives, maybe they could bump them up.

((( Sis )))

Could you tell yourself that he is miserable and try to convince yourself of that ? As I am pretty sure he is at least in some turmoil over the mess and pain he has created.

I forget, are you on any meds ? Something that you can take when you are anxious - xanax or the likes... on an as need basis.....