LS,

You have lots of good advice here. Allow me to share with you a sitch with one of my older sisters (OS). OS and XH had 4 sons, spanning age 8 thru college. OS started at least an EA if not a PA and announced the ILYNILY speach to XH. He was shocked, they were married about 22 yrs, together since the age of 16. OS told him nothing could be done, she had her mind made up. Made XH out to be the crazy one, bc frankly he was acting crazy, with grief. He called all of her sisters (there are 4 of us) begging us to help, we tried but she said we were disloyal to even speak to him. He has been in my life since I was 6 yrs old, he was/is like a brother. We had to choose to support her or him, we choose her. I didn't agree with her, never will. He even slapped her while p.u. their YS at one pt during their separation. D took awhile, lots of assets to go thru.
OS marries OM, XH marries first. There is so much bad vibes on both sides of the fence, so many "incidents" like your vacation 'stuff. End of the day, the adults are trying to be "right" or to one up their X, meanwhile, all the boys suffered. OS and XH cannot be civil to this day. Son's marriages, new babies, graduations, all are sources of stress for everyone.

I just wanted to share that bc even if your STBXH is a [email]sh@t[/email], and everything you thought is true about his motivations, please take the high road, be the mature one and put your son's above making a point. Make their summer the best it can be under the circumstances, in the long run you will have "won" the war.

Sis,

I wonder about his statement about last year at the cottage. He says "I would like it to be the same this year".

I wonder if he sees the exact meaning in this sentence. Do you?

Hmmmmm.

Your response could be:

"I see that you want this year's vacation to stay the same as last year's was, for the sake of the boys. It could be the same this year. It could be even better, because we could make it so. Come home. Work on our marriage. Stop the affair with RT. It is still possible. We can go together to the cottage and show the boys how two people can survive an affair and start a brand new marriage."

"It will be hard for her to hear, but" tells you that he is going to do what he wants to do anyway. He plans to have the cottage. This is a power play on his part. Everything in this paragraph before it is meant to sound "reasonable" and is there only to justify and soften this statement. The preceeding statements in the paragraph are fluff only.

The first paragraph is basically what you had expected - finger pointing, because you gave short notice regarding the DC trip, and he missed a visit time. Note that he fails to mention that he missed any visit times during his absence to AZ....this would not serve his purpose. He notes that he gave adequate notification of his trip (serves his argument), but does not note the missed visits (does not serve his argument). He just wants to blame "Bad LS".

The final paragraph is telling. He hates that you are using the intermediary. He has lost his control, and does not like it at all. But he tries to grab his control back by saying that for your "sake", he will continue "for the time being" doing things this way - another power play on his part. This is, plain and simple, a manner in which people who are not in control attempt to make a situation appear to be their own choice ----- when it clearly IS NOT.

He is not happy, Sam I Am.
He does not like this B Plan.

SB

SB:

I said this earlier. I agree with you that Sis' H hates PLAN B....

So therefore, the DARKER she remains THE BETTER...

No asking him to return at this point...

Nothing about her...

Make this time ALL ABOUT RT...

This is the TIME for RT to TRY to meet ALL OF HIS NEEDS...

WITHOUT PUTTING ANY OF THE FOCUS ONTO SIS...for her to become a topic of conversation between them..as someone else has said here...

LET THEM TRY TO COME UP WITH SOMETHING ELSE TO TALK ABOUT...

LilSis,

Here's a story for ya. It's even a fairy tale!

Once upon a time, the beautiful and wise Queen was told ILYBINILWY by the ugly and evil King. The ugly and evil King had decided to choose an even uglier and more evil WENCH, and he left the beautiful and wise Queen and the Prince and the Princess for the WENCH with the roomful of screaming brats.

The beautiful and wise Queen was beside herself with grief for a long time. Then she found out that the ugly and evil King had left the kingdom in disrepair and had left her with all the debts and responsibilities--and a whole bunch of angry people calling the castle and demanding money. PLUS that evil King had cleaned out the treasury and left the Queen with nothing! What could she do??

The beautiful and wise Queen did the only thing she could do--she went to work as a servant. She took in work into the castle so she could be there for the Prince and Princess. She even had to sell some of the things in the castle and move to a modest little castle. Meanwhile the King and the WENCH were burning through the money from the treasury, living in a beautiful place! There were PARTIES and TRIPS--and every time the Prince and Princess went over to visit the King and WENCH, the King bought them gifts, gave them the richest foods, or took them somewhere that was a special trip.

Gradually, the beautiful and wise Queen paid off the kingdom's debts and began to rebuild the treasury. She was, after all, a wise Queen! Slowly she bought back some of the kingdom's treasures and even bought a few of her own precious items. The Winter Festival of Presents came along, and the Queen had meticulously saved and planned, and she got the Prince and Princess gifts that she knew they would love. And they did--when they got them. But the evil King and WENCH did not feel love or peace or joy, even after spending all the money that wasn't theirs, so they plotted to hurt the Queen by taking the Prince and Princess away during the Winter Festival of Presents and taking them to the Magic Kingdom--a place that the Queen could NEVER afford no matter how long she saved.

At first the Queen felt so defeated and so sad. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> It was the first Festival of Presents since the King had left her, and he was taking the Prince and Princess away! But the Prince and Princess where THRILLED about the chance to go to the Magic Kingdom and how could the Queen deny them that chance? So she told the Prince and Princess how she felt...how she worked hard and did the right thing but no matter what she did, she never had as much money and wasn't able to buy all the things she'd like for the royal kids...and how she was afraid they would love the evil King more than her.

Do you know what the Prince and Princess told the Queen?

"Your majesty, do you honestly think we don't know who has been there for us and who has left us? Do you honestly think we don't know who tucks us in every night? Cooks us dinner every night? Helps us with our royal schoolwork every night? Do you honestly think that we don't know who treats us with love and who has been selfish? We KNOW!! We just thought that if the King can afford to take us to the Magic Kingdom, we'd take advantage of the chance!" :-0

Sure enough--the Prince and Princess were right. The evil King and more evil WENCH took them to the Magic Kingdom and amazingly after that the money ran dry! Without any money, the evil WENCH dropped the King like a hot potato. Then he lost his Fancy Dancy castle because he had no more money! And within no time, the Queen was living in love, joy and peace and the King was regretting his decisions. The Queen, the Prince and the Princess lived happily ever after. The King has not been seen in these parts since he was run off by an angry mob...

The End

(curtsey)

Mimi,

I agree that she shouldn't reply. That's why I said her response "COULD be...".

At this point, I think her response that she sent already, that June's okay but August was already verbally agreed upon is what she should stick with.

Because I do think he has something else to say, and she should wait to see what that is. If she sends anything back, it should be something along the lines of,

"I would like to stick with the original verbal agreement we had regarding the first week of August."

The problem is that she has spoken to MIL regarding the cottage, and MIL has probably spoken to WH about the issue (or it should be considered that she has). LS's cover is somewhat blown, in that WH could have information that she knows about his lies.

And while I said before that I was thinking of two possibilities before, a few others have come to mind. But still, 2 are the main ones. Especially given now that WH may know that LS knows he lied.

The one thing we can be sure of is that WH does not like Plan B. He cannot control LS, nor what she is doing or feeling. He does not like this. His frustration does show in the email.

SB

schoolbus --
re: the "last year" statement.

WH took the cottage and the boys. Lilsis was not there. This was in the midst of D-day and prior to MB.

So he is not saying he wants it like prior years when they were all there as a family.

Lil Sis - great job containing your vent mostly to here. One thing to remember - if you want to be completely dark, you must not vent/cry on her shoulder or in any other way communicate to your MIL ANYTHING about your feelings about your husband's violations.

She brought it up. You already have had in mind a boundary that in order for you to not have expectations that she should not enable your husband in his waywardness, you cannot talk with her about his behavior - in fact - for you to maintain a safe, nurturing environment for your sons in their father's absence and neglect of his family duties, you must not be reminded that he even exists until he's truly ready to repent and come home.

Communicate this along with your love for her the next time she calls to "defend" her son's behavior in any way shape or form!

Sorry....LOOOONG

I'm at my sister's. Did me a world of good to get out of there. I stopped by my dad's grave just before I came to her house, bawled my eyes out, and bawled some more when I got here.

I screwed up again. Give me the 2x4s.

I checked the website for the cottage, and there is a week available two weeks later.

Great! I thought. Here's an out that might work all the way around. WH can take the boys to the "favorite place," AND respect our verbal agreement. WITHOUT THINKING, I called MIL. Guess what? There's another week available...maybe you could drop a hint (without revealing where it came from) to WH about the other available and help facilitate a equitable solution.

Stupid, stupid, stupid x 10

"But LS, WH can't get ANY other time off this summer. He has already signed up for THAT week."

That was it. No oh, that sounds like it might work, no LS I'm glad that you are trying to keep the boys' tradition alive, no I understand that you feel hurt and taken advantage of....nothing.

She's chosen her side. And like an STUPID, RIDICULOUS IDIOT, I TRIED TO REASON with her. But MIL, we had a verbal agreement. It is unfair for him to "secure" his time off without consulting with me....particularly when he intends to sign up for vacation on the week I had indicated....yada, yada.

It totally devolved from there.

MIL:
*I just want what's best for the boys.
*The boys have been hurt from ALL sides, LS.
*WH did not abandon the boys.
*You set the "standard" when you didn't discuss going to DC with the boys. Why should he discuss his trips with you?
*If you would just TALK to WH....
*Are you saying that the boys shouldn't have a relationship with their father?
*The reason WH didn't return DS's call was that he didn't hear his phone or realize that there was a VM.
*You don't know what's in WH's heart.
*My father (whom she loved dearly) was away for work and always busy with his church and community activities, so I hardly saw him...so I believe that WH can be a good father even if he's not around much.
*WH loves his boys, and is still a good father.
*You don't see WH with his boys, so you have no idea.
*You not communicating with their father is hurting your boys, LS.

OMG! MIL is now a certifiable fog-speaker! She is a babbler! And like an IDIOT, I tried to calmly and logically speak reason to a fog-speaker. And you all know where that leads....

I was devastated. Not only the personal and very pointed betrayal, but I just gave MIL all the ammo she needs to hurt me, and shot myself several times in the process.

I bawled to my older sister (OS) about it (she is furious with MIL). She made a great point: MIL is just WH's mouthpiece now. The things she says could have come right from the mouth of WH. And my trying to REASON (no matter how calmly) with her is as effective as it was with WH.

I blew my Plan A. The thing was, I wasn't approaching it as a Plan A...prepared to take the crap head-on and smile pretty as it splatters all over me.

I have been doing so much better with my little plan B buffer zone, protecting me from WH's evil words and actions...but it turns out MIL has been inside of the buffer zone the whole time sabatoging me...more acurately, I LET her in and have allowed her to sabatoge me. That's how I feel...because as I reflect on it, my interactions with MIL just hurt me...and I allow it.

You guys have been so RIGHT about this. I THOUGHT that I could just respect the fact that MIL (as a mom) couldn't kick WH to the curb, but I NEVER expected her to so ardently DEFEND him and JUSTIFY his actions.

I know everyone is sitting there saying TOLD YOU SO, LS.

Got it. Totally got it.

So--even though I don't deserve it--can you help me think of a way to clean up this mess I have created (and you told me I would create) with grace and dignity?

The other realization that I have come to...both from the advice here and after feeling completely defeated by MIL, is that I need to choose not to fight this battle about the cottage, et al.

There will be other battles to fight, and after MIL's remarks in particular, I don't have the energy to keep it up.

OS is in the "As per our verbal agreement, August won't work" camp. But she is also in the pick your battles camp, and recognizes the difficulty in sticking to my guns.

She shared a GREAT piece of concise advice given to her from her D attorney, "People who are losing control of a situation will go to great lengths to attempt to re-exert the control that they are losing." Sometimes, it is better to just ALLOW them to FEEL as if they have some control...when in reality, they don't.

In a D, suddenly, I have some level of control. FOC garnishes his wages. He's making the house payment, but is locked out of the house he is paying for. I have "dictated" when and how the boys are picked up/dropped off (even though there was already a pattern established). Now I've gone dark (or thought I was dark, but MIL has I'm sure sabatoged that due to my own stupidity), and he can't communicate with me.

OS's advice is just to NOT respond. WH has dictated how things are going to be....okay, I guess that's it, end of story, clearly there is no reason for me to say anything at all. I apparently have NO say.

In her view, this allows him to "get his way" regarding the cottage, but I can save face in a way. He didn't give me the courtesy of checking with him, so I don't owe him the courtesy of "agreeing" to his terms. I don't have to give him the satisfaction of me BOWING to his dictates.

DARK DARK DARK (and clearly, no more communication with MIL, unless it's something like a card telling how much I appreciate all that she's done for me and that I so value our relationship, look forward to happy times with her when this is all over...nothing more)

If the whole MIL thing hadn't cropped up, I would have been fine, really. I was so totally STUPID for trying to "fix" this for WH.

THOUGHTS??? on:
1. How to clean up the mess I created with MIL
2. The idea of just NOT RESPONDING to the WH.

sorry about the novel here...

I think you handle MIL with silence... if she calls, be cordial, nothing more. She has played her hand and you have seen it to be the weak, enabling hand that frankly I thought was there the whole time. She can no longer be counted on for anything more than idle chit chat.
As far as your H goes... just let it rest for now... you will have the final say in how this goes... just be still and do nothing.
You seem to have a need to control things... and I can certainly understand why you would need that right now... but for the time being.. just be still. Regroup and do nothing... your silence will speak volumes.
You learned three important things this week...
One... your H is a ******.
Two... your MIL is enabling his behavior.
Three...you need to protect yourself from you at times....keep your thoughts and your words closely guarded right now.

MEDC

LS --

I'm afraid the poster who implied that you are getting something out of the drama of this may be right. You are not in Plan B. You are continuing to try to control things. You are engaged in an unhealthy triangulation with the MIL and thus your H, all of which is doing MORE damage, not less.

I think there's a reason why you didn't post your idea to tell MIL about this other week before you called her. You knew the advice you would get here about it and didn't want to hear it.

You need to make a brief phone call to MIL and apologize. That would demonstrate grace and be dignified. No more talk about WH. Just apologize for your continued pressure on her. Then let her go.

Re-read Plan B and try to understand its intent. Quit thinking you have to DO something with every emotion you feel.

The focus needs to be on YOU in Plan B. NOT your WH, not the MIL. Until you get this, your Plan B will do MORE damage to yourself and the chances that Plan B will work.

Again, I will advise you to call the Harleys. And start Plan Bing. That means quit responding. At this point, I fear you've supplied the WH and his family with a ton of ammunition and justifications for why and how he acts, which detracts from the REAL issues that Plan B is meant to get at.

I vote for letting him take the boys that week now, although I was in the camp that said to let him know you have plans for that week already. Again, you asked for how to get out of this with grace and dignity. This would take away a lot of the ammunition you've provided them over the last few days, and then REALLY start your Plan B.

You've read the Surviving an Affair -- Plan B chapter, right? Good luck. Until you make the decision to detach -- and that means stop trying to control and manipulate the situation, remain dark, and focus on YOU and gaining your OWN grace and dignity, Plan B will do nothing to help the situation.

Take care,
Shellybird

Sis:

Do you want to have more discussion about what this is saying about YOU and not your WH?

Do you want to talk more about how YOU can grow from this?

I'm agreeing with MEDC about the NEED TO CONTROL.

Is that more important..TO WIN..TO FIGHT with your WH than to RECOVER your marriage?

Recovering your marriage requires the DETACHMENT and DARKNESS of PLAN B.

We were encouraging you yesterday to LET THIS GO, to back off from your MIL.

That sounds MANIPULATIVE even to me to suggest to your MIL to "HINT" at something...

Sis, what's going on WITH YOU?

ETA: Amen to Shelley..I just read your response.

a few words lil sis, as this is starting to sound a LOT like what my sitch was with my ex.

first off, like it or not, blood is thicker than water. my MIL came all the way here from Alaska with my SIL to talk to my ex when we were in the middle of our crap. She let me call her and cry to her, etc.. BUT, the bottom line is, blood is thicker. Although she cried many tears over her son and his decisions, he is her son and she loves him and I am sure has forgiven him altho she is severely disappointed. bottom line is, my ex is going to make a life with ow, has lived with her for over a year now, and my inlaws had to accept that or have nothing to do with their son. So, I am not surprised at your MIL's stance. HE is her son even if she does not agree with what he is doing, even if she is in terrible pain over his choices. She is not going to toss him away. That was hard for me to swallow too. But, I had to cut my inlaws out of my life. I sent them an email thanking them for their support, asked them to continue to pray for me and that I would continue to pray for ex. I know my MIL prayed for the restoration of our marriage even after ex moved out and in with ow. I don't talk to them anymore, but for all know, she may still be praying for that. But her son is her blood and I would be shocked if she were to choose me over him.

As far as your sep agreement goes.... They don't hold up real well in family court. They are a civil matter. If he doesn't abide by it all you can do is sue him. Mine had that vague wording in it too. Bottom line is, pissing matches will not go over too well in court when the time comes to iron out custody arrangements. as hard as it is to swallow, TRUST ME I KNOW, i think it is better for you to take the high road and let him have that week. document everything and let the judge see just how COOPERATIVE and MATURE and FLEXIBLE you are. IT WILL LOOK BETTER FOR YOU. His affair will not come into play when it comes to custody. All they care about is if the children are provided for, if the environments are stable, do they have a place to sleep at both homes, when is dad available to have them. I am telling you, I went through this same stuff so I know. Wise words from my attorney: I NEED YOU TO BE MOTHER OF THE YEAR. Don't bad mouth dad in front of kids, do not keep kids from dad, do not cause animosity. Do not act unstable, do not react on emotions. this time is VITAL right now lil sis. Swallow deep and hard, DO NOT GET SUCKED INTO DRAMA. be very short, to the point and cut and dried. one to two sentence answers. trust me on this.

mlhb

Remember how I spoke with you early on about STEVE calling ME on how WRONG I was in doing this type of thing in MY MARRIAGE?? Trying to CONTROL..CONTROL..CONTROL...

It would be best to start from this point onward to focus on YOUR OWN WORK..to make YOURSELF into the best person that you can be...

Like you, Sis, I was still operating under the lessons I learned from a PERFECTIONISTIC parent who gave me the mistaken and erroneous idea that I HAD ENOUGH POWER TO MAKE THINGS RIGHT and that was MY DUTY...I lived in a constant state of ANXIETY..because, of course, I was ALWAYS FAILING...

AH, the PEACE AND CONTENTMENT OF ACCEPTANCE that I keep attempting to share with you..ACCEPTANCE that I can only CONTROL myself and EVIDENCE my LOVE and CARING to others....to not JUDGE or to EXPECT others to do things MY WAY..to try to ACCEPT and to UNDERSTAND their way...to not assume that MY WAY is ALWAYS THE RIGHT WAY...

Yes, I learned just like STEVE HARLEY told me.."YOU WERE WRONG"..Me, WRONG??????

And now I am able to say "SO WHAT?"....

I think I'm on my way to change my signature line...

The thing is ML..Sis heard many of us speak to her about her MIL, saying the same as you, just the other day...

Sis, you didn't buy what we were saying?

I agree with Shelly, you knew what you would be told here. I am beginning to wonder if the reason you will not call one of the Harleys is because you know you will not like what they tell you. You said you didn't click with Steve, that leaves Jennifer and even Dr. Harley on his radio show.

Plan B is dark- that means no getting info about WS - it means not talking to his family about him- it means not talking to your friends about him. Vent here, vent on paper - just stay away from the topic of him with those people. You are still filling your need for him by involving yourself in all of the drama of him.
You are validating his actions because you are showing him that you will react exactly as he expects you to act.

Yeah he is a conniving jerk. Yeah, he has been lying to you about the cottage. Is this such a shock? Have the last 9 months proved that he is not the man you married? Have they not shown that he is a liar, a cheat, a conniving ba$[censored]?

As for his mom, think about it, LS. You are a mom. Someone tells you DS11 is completely different on an outing than he has ever been with you. What are you going to believe? You are going to still try to see the best in him. Do you think she does any less?

Call your attorney and ask him to set up something with WS's attorney regarding visitation. Let them hash it out- YOU stay out of it after telling him your desires. I had been one of the ones thinking you should keep firm on your verbal agreement as to that week, but like Shelly, I think you should now let it go.

For you to call and try to find him another week could really be considered conniving on your part. You are better than that. Don't lower yourself to his level, LS.

Quit asking for details on his emails such as the sig line. Find a new route to school, etc to avoid seeing the diner, etc. You have her there for a reason - to help you avoid the drama.

If she can not understand not giving him extra information like her POV in the last email, maybe she should come here and read up on Plan B- maybe you could buy her her own book as you need to read yours daily as Mimi has said.

DARK, DARK, DARK

We are all pulling for you, LS.

I just think that LilSis thinks she knows better.

I've been following this thread from the beginning, and I was SO rooting for her. It's hard to read here and watch how she takes advice when it suits her, and when she knows better, does what she wants.

If I were her MIL, I'd want OUT of the middle of this. This is his MOTHER you are asking to manipulate him. She's not your girlfriend, or your ally. Her first alliance will always be to her son. You are making her choose, and I guarantee, she won't choose you.

Leave her alone! She must be going absolutely nuts by now!

LilSis,

Apologies if this sounds harsh, but I have about 30 seconds to spare today, so I don't have time to edit.

I was afraid lack of communication about the DC trip might come around to bite you in the butt. Think about it - if WH had announced plans like that to you on that short notice, you would have flipped out.

You have got to shake yourself out of the victim role. Did you "deserve" what is happening to you right now? No. Neither did anyone here. We all have our crosses to bear. As long as you feel like WH, MIL or anyone "owes" you something, you have no chance at moving on with a happy, healthy life.

This all sucks - absolutely no doubt about it. We all agree. You don't have to keep trying to convince anyone.

MOVE FORWARD.

As far as practical suggestions - I think the idea of calling MIL and apologizing for trying to stick her in the middle is a good idea. Then leave it at that. There is no more you need to say.

Your decision to move to plan B was impulsive. Maybe your heart was ready, but your head wasn't (or vice versa??) You have announced your stand. You need to either live it or reverse it. You can't be in and out.

(((((LilSis))))) And I do feel for you, as do so many here. Our hearts break for you and your sons.

this one is gonna hurt

I just realized something about you LilSis

your need to be Right is so powerful that it completely out shouts the softer side of you

and this very trait that you are seeing in yourself today, is the crack in your marriage where OW managed to apply her crow-bar

a man is vulnerable when his woman is Right and he is Wrong

the reason you need to deal with this issue now is ... being Right will not work in recovery

being Right will not work in marriage

deal with it

stop being Right
and start being Good

you have a front seat view of yourself

imagine yourself living with The Right side of yourself

my way or the highway
my way or the wrongway

let us know when you are ready to control yourself and not others

Unfortunately, Pep, I saw what you are seeing long ago..almost stopped posting to Sis..cause I thought it was JUST ME who saw it in her and she would not listen...

I saw it in Sis because it used to be ME and was THE CRACK that the OW in my situation used...

I'm so THANKFUL that I CHANGED..for MYSELF..for MY MARRIAGE...

Give Lilsis a break... she knows she screwed up...knows it. Kicking her repeatedly here is doing nothing but making her feel worse.
The crack that let the OW in was her husbands crack in his integrity. We all have our faults and obviously Lilsis will need to battle her need to control...but any person could find a crack that could let another in... integrity stops that from happening.
Stop being right and start being good sounds like great advice to me. That is a jump off point for Lilsis.