Tnat is COMPLETELY ridiculous sounding ... are you going to get the chance to speak directly to the pdoc? That's the only way you are going to know for sure what he really thinks.

yes fiat, I am going with her next tuesday, and her pdoc has said that he will set aside extra time for this appointment.

and for your questions weaver...


She was diagnosed about 5 months ago, and I strongly beleive she has had it since I met her, although it has gotten worse.

Yes, she has always seemed immature/selfish to an extreme. She even admits to being extremely selfish.

I beleive she has merit in that she misses her family, and that her family would help with support. But, I miss my family to and don't expect her to move... and as far as support, she can still get support from them here. She talks to them daily, sees them several times a year, infact they will be here this weekend.

Our children are 1,5,7

As far as being objective, i've tried very much. But when I say "i cant be enthusiastic about moving because I feel i wont be happy there, and we would be giving up so much on top of that".... she responds "all you need to be happy is to make me happy"

Tried POJA many times, doesnt work with our situation.

Yes, the first time i came to these forums (about 3 months b4 she was diagnosed bipolar), was because she had an online emotional affair. Thats a whole other story.

Lang,

Here is my opinion.

You have two people that joined together to have a family.

I have extended family IE my mom, sister, brother etc.

I cannot make my decesions based on my extended family.

Just my immediate family. My FWW like yours wanted to do what was best for her to be around her family.

Now I truly do believe SHE may have been happier. Lets face it if she believes it will it probably will.

Now what was the cost. Extremely high for the rest of us.

My kids would probably be less happy. I would be less happy. I would have to commute much further.

Now the kick is her family isn't set on staying where they are.

So what happens if they move? Am I supposed to move around and follow her family?

I mean they will not make their life decesions on where WE live.

So if her sister and brother got job opportunities to good to pass up in another state then what?

So for the happiness of one person everyone else is less happy.

Financially not as well off etc.

I gotta tell you if the only way for her to be happy is to be around her mom and dad maybe she should have never left home and got married.

So if the doctor is telling her that then he may be saying that "She will never ALLOW herself to be 100% happy where you are."

Good luck.

So many times she has looked me straight in the eyes and said "you are not enough".
or in other words, I am not enough to make her happy, no matter how hard i try, but it would all be good if we lived near her mom.

how do i respond to that... /sigh

Should I open the conversation with the pdoc first? I was thinking maybe if I told him what she got out of the last meeting, and how she perceived it and relayed it to me may open some eyes?

If i tell him, before he tries to explain anything to me, that my wife "perceived" this from their conversation....
1 - Doctor feels she would be more stable if she moved, and on less medications
2 - Doctor feels that whatever she percieves is what matters, nothing else.

Im not sure she will understand it even if he explains it to me, so maybe if I showed him how she perceived it he may be able to clarify what he meant better?

Happiness comes from within langaan. You cannot make another person happy. Happiness is a choice one must make all on their own.

In my opinion, since your FWW is extremely immature/selfish and mentally ill, you must make a decision based on what you believe to be the best for your family.

I will say that most healthy young women put their families needs before their own. They do not have to live close to their mother. Most probably wouldn't even want to, and would see 8 weeks a year as more than enough.

I agree with the others, get the court order ready just in case and find another doctor if this one doesn't make complete sense to you.

She won't be happy when you move to her mother's town langaan. I hope you realize this.

I just called her to see when the appointment is next week, and she said "why, are you comming?"
i said yes, and she didn't say anything. It was very clear that she didnt expect me to go, and/or doesn't want me to.

She then said it was on tues at 1:30pm , and she just realized that theres no way we can both go because of the daycare she runs during the day.
I asked her to see if her pdoc can meet with us after hours, and that way we can just bring the kids. She paused and said she would find out.

I expect that when she calls to let me know if he will meet with us after hours or not, she will likely ask the question "why do you want to go?"

So why would she ask that? She told you point blank that her doctor would like you to come. You're showing her that she's important and that this is important...by coming to hear what her doctor has to say.

If she asks you why do you want to go, ask her why would you not go when the doctor has reqeusted that you be there with her.

And...don't let her snowball things into not letting you go. Do NOT accept any excuse why the two of you can't meet with her doctor together. MAKE IT HAPPEN.

It sounds to me like you think she might have lied about what her doctor said. If so...time to call her out on it. Even if you show up, and her doctor repeats exactly what she told you, it's time to ask those questions.

Make sense?

yes, makes sense, but what questions?

lets say her pdoc looks at me and tells me that he feels she would be able to be 100% stable if we moved near her mom, and only 75% stable if we stay, and that it will take more medications to get her to that 75% here...

now to me, that sounds ridiculous. And if he also says that it doesnt matter why she thinks the way she does, it only matters what she thinks/perceives. So in other words, it doesnt matter why she wants to move, it doesnt matter what we as a family lose, it doesnt matter that I will be less happy...
all that matters is that she beleives we will all be one big happy family if we move.

what exactly do I ask him if he says all that?

Ask him for his credentials.

Ask him to see the research.

Ask him to explain how living next to her mom would take her from 3 medications to 1, and increase her stability 25%

Ask him if she gets the notion that she would be happier living in an outhouse in the middle of Death Valley you should pack up the kids and move there next.

Ask him why an entire families future should be dictated by somebody who is mentally ill, diagnosed by him.

And then go talk about it to another doctor and see what he says.

Lang,

Again peoples perception is their reality.

Maybe the doctor is right. Lets say for instance your W is so stubborn a doctor is not going to ever get her to buy into what we know to be true.

It happened in my M. We went to an MC the MC told FWW that moving will not solve the problems.

Spent thousands of dollars and time for my FWW to say "He is wrong he doesn't know what he is talking about.

How many times my FWW said "I wish I never moved here with you", "I am trapped", "I am a prisoner" etc.

That doesn't make me feel good about our M or our R.

Now things have changed because her family is a bunch of flakes and our MC gently guided her toward seeing that.

So lets assume the doctor is right.

Do you think moving is fair or the best thing for everyone.

If not you are an adult. You need to make the best decesion for your ENTIRE family. Not make your entire family suffer for one person.

By the way our MC has said that you need to be happy to be happy.

If you are looking for a thing, a place or a time to be happy you never will be because when you finally get there usually it will be replaced by something else.

I think what the pdoc might be saying to her is that if she believes she will be more happy there she will be.

And that her agitation at not being able to go might cause more instability in her illness.

Seems like if that is the case you need to find a way to make her want to live where you are. It might take only for her to figure out that you are not leaving and that you are not letting her take the kids. And that you will not live in a loveless marriage with a miserable wife.

This might be the incentive she needs.

So then you ask him WHY she would be more stable there? How does he KNOW that? What proof does he have, or what does he base his belief of that assumption on? What alternatives are there to his recommendation?

Now...the point about what she 'believes' being important...makes good sense up to a point.

It doesn't matter if you intend to hurt someone or not...if they FEEL hurt, that's important.

Now...the difference here is that your wife ASSUMES (you might read believe, but really, it's ASSUME) that she'll be happier if she moves back with the rest of her family. Just because she BELIEVES that, doesn't make that true. It could be that you get back there and everything is the same...or WORSE, because of the loss of job and everything else.

Get the difference between BELIEVE and ASSUME here? I'd take that same tactic with her doc. They're ASSUMING she'll be happier there. They don't KNOW. It's not the same thing as BELIEVING.

The perception thing counts towards emotions. If you believe something emotionally, that's one thing. It doesn't matter if its real or not, it's what you FEEL. But when applying that towards a physical thing, like moving, that's not the same thing. They don't KNOW that she'll be happier there...they ASSUME. They THINK...they GUESS.

Get the difference?

It matters that she BELIEVES that she'll be happier there. She's got her hopes all set on that. But that doesn't mean that she WILL be happier there. She won't KNOW that until it happens...if it happens.

She's fixated on moving home. Ask the doctor how to change that fixation instead of feeding.

Lang, the lack of logic in what you WW relayed from her doctor, plus her reaction when you told her you're going with her to the next appointment both tell me she was deliberately skewing what he'd actually said, or perhaps she made it up from whole cloth. Maybe not, but there's a sure way to find out.

Call him. Find out what he told her and then you can deal with it on a better basis.

Frankly, as Owl suggested, I'd insist on hearing the scientific basis for a 75% cure where your family has established a home and where you have full employment versus the quality of life (100%) she and your family would have back home with mommy...but with you out of a job or just starting out all over again on the bottom rung. How can that be? Surely a health professional understands there are other factors beyond the correct mixture of drugs. Additionally, when does a health practitioner ever say a cure will be 100%, and particularly before even trying the new drugs?

Okay, that's enough from me. Just color me skeptical.

here's what I think i will tell her doctor...

I beleive that we have 3 options:

1 - seperate and arrange for the best for everyone, with emphasis on the children.(or in other words, give-up). Decide what will happen with the children etc... She moves to her mom and I stay here with the career to so support the family.
2 - move, and risk the well-being of the family in general due to loss of career and happiness of myself. With the fact in mind that none of the families happiness is garaunteed, and that if the move doesnt result in everyones happiness, the family as a whole is ruined. We would be in the same situation now, with 3 changes. First, some or all of us would be less happy. 2nd, we would no longer have my career. 3 - Uprooting the kids always has negative effects.
Essentilally, if we just move, and it fails, option #1 is no longer available.
3 - Stay, and work on the ilness and take the steps needed to achieve everyones happiness. In the case that this fails, and results in seperation, atleast #1 is still an option.

nevermind, thats something that should be said to a counsellor, not a pdoc.

THis is what I think I should say to the pdoc:

Do you beleive that moving near her family will increase her chances of being more stable?
Do you beleive that moving will increase her chances of being happy?

if he answers yes to the above, I will then ask:

Is your assumption based on the rest of the family being happy after the move?

and,

is your advice directed at the best interest of her stability, her own happiness, or the well-being of the entire family?

and finally,

Is it likely or unlikely that her inless is in anyway contributing to her fixation about moving, and if so, how can that be corrected?

One last thing,
Would you advise to feed her fixation, or take steps to correct it?

langaan, I think she is telling the truth when she says this. She places her connection with her FOO on a much higher plane than she does her marriage. I suspect it will always be like this, which tells me she is really not mature enough to be in a marriage. I am very surprised she got married at all, knowing this.

Langaan, even if you do uproot your family and move her to her mommy's it will not solve the problem. You and your marriage will still be way down on her list of priorities. The problem is really that she has not grown up and moved away from her mommy and towards her husband and children emotionally. Moving next to momma will not solve that.

Nor will you ever find happiness in a marriage where you are lower on the list than her momma. I suspect if you allow her to blackmail you emotionally into moving, that she will know that this sleazy tactic WORKS.

The pdoc is probably like most, in that he wants to change the standard to accommodate sick behavior, instead of helping her to adjust to adulthood.

langaan, why not call Dr. Harley on air and see what he says about this? He is a sane psychologist who can pretty quickly assess most situations. He might be able to give you some direction.

You also need to ask him, as Weaver suggests, why he thinks yes to the above. Ask him to show you supporting data.

He needs to be able to give you a quantitative prognosis.

Then ask for a second opinion.

With prayers,

I would strongly caution against financing her nonsense. If she wants to move to mommys, then she needs to get a job and support herself. You should only pay what you are required to pay by law. please don't protect her from the consequences of her immature decisions.

I would also make it clear that you will go for full custody since she is so unstable. She would have to pay you child support.

Dont' make this easy for her, langaan. That helps no one. Make sure she knows that if she chooses to act on her immature selfish notions, that she will not be protected from the consequences. And BELIEVE ME, this is a girl who sorely needs some consequences. She is VERY immature.

now weaver, don't be silly, everyone knows those guys are PSYCHIC. I was once depressed and went to a p-doc and he could tell by just looking at me that I was "serotonin deficient." He was a regular Madame Cleo! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

This guy would have absolutely no way of knowing that she will be "75%" anything if she did XYZ. Langaan should ask him what langaan and the children's percentage of "happness" will be if they have to give up their home, career..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />