What is the difference between consequence and punishment?

perspective

a punishment is inflicted upon another ... always a negative


a consequence is the effect of an action ... could be either negative or positive

Punishment is about getting a response from another person. A consequence is just an event that follows another event.

For example:

If you step off a cliff, gravity will convey you to the bottom of the cliff at 9.8 m/s^2 (assuming you have nothing that would stop it). It's not punishment for daring to defy the laws of physics. Gravity doesn't care if you're sorry, it doesn't care if you're going to do it again, it doesn't care if you meant to do it, it doesn't care if you forgot and it doesn't particularly notice whether or not you're happy with the results. Gravity just does what it does. (Please note, this does NOT apply to cartoon characters.)

If I decide I'm not going to be yelled at and leave the room, it doesn't prevent my spouse from continuing to yell. It doesn't stop him from being able to yell in the future. He might never decide to stop yelling at me and I might always decide to leave the room. All it does is prevent me from having to listen to him yelling.

When dealing with boundaries, I try to stick to the lowest effective dose. So, if it's yelling then I try to stick to whatever is effective (leaving). Now, that OFTEN creates a change in behavior (people realize you're going to leave and they don't yell at you) but the primary reason I leave is because I don't want to be yelled at -- it hurts my ears.

If I was trying to elicit a response, perhaps I'd start escalating the boundary -- trying to prove that yelling is a bad tactic. Or, maybe I'd start lecturing about why I keep leaving in order to force the other person to come to the conclusion not to yell (vs. simply asking nicely, ONCE).

The minute it becomes about changing/controlling someone else's behavior RATHER than controlling your own environment (life) is the minute it becomes punishment instead of a boundary. You can usually tell by how invested you are in the other person changing -- rather than how invested you are in not dealing with <whatever> any more.

Mys

Also, NOTE TO SELF:

A "boundary" is about me...it is a fence around me and what I will and will not accept. It is not a "rule" for you. Thus, I can not give you a boundary. My boundary may be that I will not be called names. Thus, if you DO call me names, I will walk out of the room. However, I can not tell you that the boundary is that YOU may not call me names. You can do whatever you choose! I just will not have a life that includes name-calling, and if you choose to do that, I will choose to leave the room.

Sooooo... a consequence is a naturally occurring response to a behavior or choice. A punishment is hurting or harming someone in the hopes that you can "make" them change their behavior. In our name-calling example above, a consequence would be that if you do decide to call me names, I will not be in the room with you. A punishment would be that if you call me names, I lecture you about verbal abuse.

One consequence of an affair is loss of trust. This is a naturally occurring response when the WS chooses to behave in an untrustworthy manner. Thus, one consequence might be having to give the BS all the passwords to all the emails and cell phones to prove NC. See? Naturally occurring response to loss of trust.

One PUNISHMENT for an affair is for the BS to keep making the WS pay after they have sincerely repented and done real actions to regain trust. Punishment might be to keep bringing it up, use it against the WS in a fight, or sling out "the affair" when the WS has a work email in a different company years later and did not think to offer the password to the BS.

Does that make sense?

Your faithful friend,



CJ

I'd say those are exactly right!
Mulan

That defines it for me really well!

I am working really hard at boundaries and I came across this little definition snafu today.

I see that consequence can feel like punishment to the receiver. I want to ensure that I am not using punishment to enforce my boundaries.

That is a little difficult for me, being new at boundaries, when the person affected by my boundary-setting perceives that I am doing it to punish them.

If that happens again I can...

state that I am sorry that they feel punished and assure them that is not my intent and let them know that they are free to do A (insert choice here), but if they choose A, I wil respond with B (to protect myself from their choice)?

Am I missing anything that might help me respond better to that?

Is it appropriate to remind them that if they would like a different response from me (C, perhaps) that they are also free to choose differently? When boundary setting with a spouse, does that constitute relating as parent/child or is it still appropriate?

keep any explaination to a minimum

such as:

"I am protecting myself."

period

Also don't apologize for their feelings.

~ Marsh

And this is a problem because - ?


That is THEIR problem, not yours. As long as you know you are not deliberately and abitrarily inflicting punishment for its own sake, and instead are just letting someone bounce off of the boundaries you have put in place, you have nothing to worry about.

You do not owe them any explanation. You should never find yourself trying and trying and trying to explain or justify a boundary to the person who just ran smack into it. If you do, you can be sure that that person is real mad about the boundary and is trying to guilt you into moving it.

(I do notice that you seem extremely, extremely, extremely concerned that you must justify and explain and justify and explain all of the actions you take to protect yourself and that your spouse MUST be in full agreement or you're doing something wrong. Froz, you're not doing anything wrong except maybe allowing yourself to be guilted into feeling guilty about setting up personal boundaries and argued into doubting that what you are doing is right.)

Don't fall for that.

"It's a boundary of mine. I am protecting myself."

End of statement. Get your purse and go to the mall for a while.
Mulan

NOTE TO SELF #2:

Speaking as someone who was abused as a kid, I never had a CLUE what a boundary was until I was an adult...and even then I had difficulty envisioning it. When a person is new to boundaries, just remember that you are practicing too. You're trying something NEW...so sometimes you're going to go overboard, and sometimes you won't go overboard enough. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> It's like riding a bike: at first you flail around and crash and don't do a great job...but you keep trying and adjust a little here and there...and then you can ride! Soooo...just be aware, you will make some mistakes, but it's just like everything else: learn from the mistake, try again, and do better the next time.

Regarding the boundary/punishment thing, let's use a concrete "real life" example. My exH was verbally abusive, and when he would be verbally abusive to me, my boundary was that I would name it, and I would not stay in the room. Sure enough, shortly thereafter he started being blaming and critical, so I said, "That is verbally abusive and I will no longer accept being abused" and walked out of the room. HE said I was punishing him for speaking the truth!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

At first, part of me second-guessed myself. Was I? Was I punishing him for speaking the truth? I evaluated it like I would if he was a friend or co-worker. Would a friend or co-worker "speak the truth" like that? Would they blame me for their problems? Would they think I was responsible? Would I expect a friend or co-worker to speak to me in that tone of voice? Would I expect a friend or co-worker to use those kind of words or that tone of voice? If they WERE actually speaking the truth, would they have said it like that or said it probably a different way? By comparing it to a friend or co-worker, you take out the closeness of someone you love and live with--where you're so close to the situation that you can't see the forest for the trees.

From there I could tell--nope, a friend or co-worker would not speak to me with those kinds of words, that volume, that tone of voice or that kind of blame. Thus it is verbal abuse and not "speaking the truth." Speaking the truth would sound different. And from there, I could tell that I was cool with enforcing my boundary by walking out of the room and that he was just trying to engage me in a fight. He may not LIKE the consequence, and he may not like that now I'm allowing him to experience consequences, but that IS NOT me punishing him. That is him squirming under the consequences of his own choices.

See how that goes??

Sooooo...I'm your friend. Would I do to you what the boundary thing is and then say you're punishing me? Use me (or someone you work with) as a more neutral way of measuring.

Your faithful friend,



CJ

here is another way to clarify your boundary when it is critiqued or questioned by the person miffed about it ....

[b] [i] [color:"red"]" I am keeping the promise I made to myself. "[/color]

No claim of pro,
but looked at your initial thread call out:


Yea,
this is an easy one to get confused on for sure,
I bet for many of us.
(And although I think I understand the difference in theory,
not sure I'm all that good at separating them in actual Practice).

Here's some stuff to ponder:
Consequences are defined as that which follows some action.

In other words, it is referring to cause and effect.

For Starters,
(If I get the jist of in what context your asking)
Perhaps Remember that the purpose of consequences is to Teach, not to simply cause pain or distress.

However,
punishment is just that ......pain inflicted on a person guilty of some offense.

Maybe this will help:
As has been stated--
Consequences are natural outcomes for behavior.

Such as:
You know if you don't pay your electric/Phone/gas bill,
the consequence will be that your utility gets turned off and you have to pay a fee to have it restored.

The company doesn't begin to call and the to lecture you.
In addition,
they don't remind you of all the other times you promised you would pay on time and you didn't.
Basically, there is No Emotion involved.
The consequences were set and told to you In Advance.
It really doesn't matter that you may have some excuse or reason that may cause you to not pay your bills.
YOU still have to pay the consequences.

Fortunately, that's life.
The nice thing is that once it is paid,
the whole situation is put into the past and only brought up again if there is a continuing problem directly relating to it.

Sadly,
Punishment only requires a temporary change in behavior.

But it is actually easier to implement .....since there does not have to be any actual relationship to the offense.

On the other hand,
consequences are aimed at changing the thinking patterns of a person and that can be the hardest and most uncomfortable thing a person has to do.

Especially since Coming up with consequences that relate to the actual offense are Much harder to come up with,
{as the Goal is to instruct} not simply make the person Uncomfortable.

Indeed,
Punishment can be arbitrary.
Also frightening is that punishment is easier to meet out,
since not only does it require less thought .....its almost always more expedient. (Therefore easier to implement in a Reactionary manner).
Yep, guilty!

On the other hand,
consequences Must directly relate to the offense.
For sure:
Consequences (when done correctly) require the person to actual THINK and Learn <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />.......as were punishment only requires that they Feel. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

consequences can be POSITIVE

the consequence of studying for the exam is a good grade

the consequence for good grades is graduation

the consequence for graduation is better career opportunities

the consequence from using POJA is 2 happy spouses and a finely-tuned marriage

failing to study and getting bad grades in not punishment, it is consequences

Lot of good thoughts above!

I love boundaries, too bad I don't enforce them as much as I should.

My thoughts:
I agree with the notion that you often find yourself learning something new, in particular boundaries, when you are in this type of mess. It's easy to forget that you are still learning the concept and will make mistakes.

I second-guessed myself a number of times, that's just a natural result of the learning your own boundaries and how to protect yourself.

I think whether or not it's defined as a consequence or punishment will sometimes depend on the eye of the beholder. I don't try to explain away my actions, I keep it short and simple when I invoke my boundary protection clauses. I've heard everything in the book when I've stepped out of a conversation due to disrespectful treatment "Wow, that's real grown up" "You NEED to hear about me and OM!" BLAH BLAH. You get the picture.

Here's the tormenting part for me: One of my boundaries, really self-discovered since I've been in a mess with my WW, is that I will not tolerate disrespectful treatment. Normally it's verbal, such as on the phone.

So, the quandary I find myself in is: I'm going to have to suffer through some serious fogtalk (disrespect) if I plan on staying in Plan A. Thus, my boundaries are being pushed, pulled and walked right on over.

I like to think that you establish your boundaries, communicate them to your WS, and at some point you have to take measures to enforce your boundaries. I call that Plan B.

The best boundaries make you very, very predictable.

The more predictable your boundaries are -- the faster people get used to them and the sooner they get over that feeling of being 'punished.'

Let me give you an example:

When we travel as a couple, my H and I prefer not to stay with relatives. This is because some of our relatives (ok, fine, my side of the family) tends to be very, very difficult and intrustive when we stay with them. So, in an effort to be 'fair' we just like to stay in hotels.

(Besides, no one should have to face us before breakfast.)

His family seems to more or less be reconciled to this. My family (the more intrusive one) is just incensed by this behavior. For 15 years, I've explained to them that we prefer to stay in a hotel and we ARE in fact staying in a hotel. We've been very, very predictable about this with a few, notable exceptions for family emergencies.

At first, my family would throw huge temper tantrums every time I'd come to 'visit but not stay.' Eventually, they just got used to it though they've never learned to like it. I've even heard them discuss my 'strange ways' with other relatives -- and it's clear they don't take it personally. They just don't like it.

And, that's ok.

So, people might never learn to embrace and love your boundaries. They do, however, learn to respect them, anticipate them, and resign themselves to what you do.

It's like dealing with small children and animals. Absolute consistence and predictability is what you're really aiming to accomplish. You want people to know
"when I come to town, I'll be at a hotel" or <when X happens s/he'll do y>.

Mys

That's what I was trying to touch on yesterday. Making other people happy about your boundaries is NOT part of the process of setting a boundary.

That's because you are setting the boundary for you, not for them.

If you worry and obsess and feel you must explain so they'll be okay with it, you have not set a boundary. You're still just asking them for permission to not be trampled/ignored/otherwise abused and you're really really hoping they'll agree.

How has that worked in the past?

Boundaries are set for YOU. If the other party does not like that boundary, that is NOT your problem. Think about it: If they liked it, you probably wouldn't need it in the first place!

It is not, not, not your responsibility to make someone else feel good about your boundaries. That is 100% THEIR responsibility.
Mulan

Agreed! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Most Definitely! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

In much the same way,
almost everyone takes the word Confession as something usually associated with the negative.
Not so though.

You can (and should) have a Positive Confession everyday of your life.
Your confession is simply saying and agreeing about what you Believe about your life.
So be good to you,
and Speak some goods things into your life. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
You'll thank yourself Later. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

One thing that hasn't been mentioned about boundaries is that it's important to really be able to define where they are. That sounds simple, but sometimes it really isn't. Most people have trouble enforcing boundaries, because their boundaries are fuzzy and unclear, consequently....someone trying to respect those boundaries may also be somewhat unclear. And with unclear boundaries....the natural consequences are also unclear. For instance....if your boundary is that you won't tolerate yelling, but someone yells at you and you don't remove or protect yourself...then that's not really where your boundary is...is it? And there's no natural consequences. Boundaries must be enforced....or there are no consequences.

So they're clear.
They are enforceable.
They have natural consequences.
They are about you.

Boundaries define the walk line...the place where you move from tolerable to intolerable.

Boundaries are NON-negotiable. Unlike issues which can be POJA'd if there's some room for give and take....boundaries are the hills we die on. In a discussion we had on the EN board awhile back we used the example of anal sex. One poster said she had a boundary around anal sex and I agreed....but then asked....but is that REALLY my boundary or should it be: "No anal sex with anything bigger than XXX?" Or is it: "Nothing goes in my hinny, but I'll be happy to put something in yours". My REAL and true boundary is this: "Sex shouldn't hurt! If it hurts me...I'm done." That is a boundary I will defend....and it is a walk-line for me. I'll experiment....but it can't hurt....that is just never going to do it for me....it's non-negotiable.

What I'm saying is that when most folks use boundaries...they tend to include the area where negotiation is likely to be possible....so they need understand that if they do that....it can seem impossible to find solutions to their partner.

Well, that should take care of it.

I guess I wasn't very clear when I said that it is sometimes difficult when someone is telling you that your boundary inflicts punishment, but I'm glad that I wasn't because there are some really useful suggestions on how to handle those situations.

I used to struggle with that. I have since come to understand that I am not responsible for other people's thoughts, feelings, actions, choices, etc...nor are they responsible for mine.

It took a really long time for me to understand that and not only to know it here <points to head>, but to also know it - really know it - here <points to chest>.


THAT is my current focus and what prompted my original question - not boundaries that protect me from others, but boundaries that protect OTHERS from ME...a little boundary setting on myself, with regards to controlling and punishing behavior.

I grasp the concept of boundaries. Now I am exploring it a little deeper and trying some fine tuning.

Sometimes I recognize, in boundary setting, that I am trying to control the outcome - get a specific response. Sometimes I don't know if I am just HOPING that the other person will make the choice I want them to or if I really am trying to control their choice.

I want to stop that, but I see that doing so will require my being able to identify the behavior.

So the boundary perpetrator I am really referring to is:

ME


Hmmm...consistency! That is an excellent point and makes perfect sense.

This has been (probably still is) a HUGE problem for me.

BTW, how come everyone always uses "walk away" as a boundary enforcement?

While that could really give me some exercise, I wonder if there are other options.

I wonder, how appropriate is distancing yourself emotionally?

This is a common boundary breach consequence that I employ, which is what makes me question if I am actually using consequence or really punishment.

Example: You are dishonest with me.
Result: I feel hurt, angry and unsafe.
Consequence: I emotionally distance myself from you. I no longer feel like meeting your EN's (such as affection).

Something about that reeks of punishment to me, but thus far, I don't have an alternate method of protection.