Mr A - I see, and just to be clear - I wasn't attempting to criticize. I was only trying to clarify for myself, what is a good and proper motivation for D and what isn't.

I honestly do not know the answer to that myself. My mom and dad were divorced as long as I can remember. I have no real memory of them being M'd. My sibs, who are 16, 15, and 7 years older than me respectively, all tell me how abusive our dad was. I cut off all ties with him when I turned 18 because I had come to realize that he would never change. My brother is a doc, and he agrees with me that the man suffers from some sort of pathology.

Still, I regret never having had a dad around and I want nothing more than to raise my kids in a unified family unlike how I grew up.

As for Hold's response being aimed at my sitch - no, not directly, though I do appreciate reading about all perspectives. His being one of the person in withdrawal and wanting out. My post was only meant to flesh out some understanding for myself about what motivates people to finally give up and walk away. It's in no way meant as an indictment of anyone's choices.
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Hold - I hope that I didn't come across that way. And I apologize if I hijacked your thread.

Can I ask you a sort of delicate question though? I gather that you and your wife are Jewish, no? My wife is as well, and her family originally hails from the NE (DC and NY). I have observed that within her family and the Jewish community in general can be very insular, and perceived social status is something that is to be cultivated and maintained - especially among families with some money.

My FIL has a law degree but when he sat for the Bar and failed it, his first W (my W's mother), blasted him as a failure and a loser. If their marriage was in descent already, that event sent it into terminal free fall. She was really counting on him becoming a successful attorney so that they could live like her friends. They tried to anyway, by spending too much on nights out with friends - trying to keep up appearances. Meanwhile, my W says that dinner for her and her sisters was often nothing more than peanut butter and crackers.

As radical as this sounds, could a change of environment have a positive impact on your W's expectations? Smaller town perhaps? Simpler social pressures? Just a thought and I hope that I didn't stereotype into offense. I'm just trying to relate based on my own experiences and observations.

Good suggestion. Might well help others.

But as with Star's suggestion, BTDT. This is the 3rd different state Mrs. Hold and I have lived in. Although we live in a nice place, it is not as fancy as the place we lived before. Moving here where there are many college professors who don't make HUGE money has had no impact on Mrs. Hold's level of expectations. She reads the New York Times and Conde Naste Travellor, not the local pennysaver. She wants what she wants no matter where we live.

I see - I wasn't aware of the multiple moves already. Sorry.

Well, as I'm sure others have already said, sometimes the best way to appreciate what you've got, is to go without it.

No problem. All suggestions are welcome. That is the power of large groups. Who knows, someone here might come up with something that we haven't already tried.


Good point. Maybe I should move out and see how that feels.

Move out and let HER see how that feels!

Myschae
Didn't want to hijack your thread. Figured you'd eventually see this when you had time.


Yes, it makes sense. I have many unslain dragons in my baggage.

On the other hand, I think that the biggest benefit of deciding to get divorced is that I would finally be free to defend my boundaries in personal relationships. Until now, I feel constrained not to defend them out of fear that doing so might cause Mrs. Hold to retaliate in ways that are hurtful to our kids, or trigger her to want to separate before I am emotionally or financially prepared to do so. I see myself defending boundaries in future relationships to a much greater extent.

My fear for the future is not that I won't defend boundaries, but rather than I will be too inflexible. For example, I haven't decided whether I would break up with someone the first or the second time they turned down sex.

The problem is that I need so much more experience defending boundaries before I will trust myself to be flexible. At the start, I will probably be hypersensitive. Retaliation will be swift and conclusive. As you know from suffering through my posts all these years, I don't do grey very well.

Moreover, I think I have been defending my boundaries better at work. Remember how I told that potential client "no more meetings until you engage me"? I can't remember ever being so RH with a client. And last night a client asked me if I could turn around a document overnight, and I told them that depended on whether the blinking message light on my phone was another client who had "reserved" the evening. The client laughed and told me "thanks for showing me where I rate on your totem pole". As it happened, the other client didn't need me so I could do the documents last night. But I don't think the client I put off minded that I was up front about having other clients who might need me after I spent 90 minutes on the phone on an unscheduled call.

Hi Hold,

I can certainly understand about wanting to be the one to make the decision vs the other way around. What sort of financial preps do you feel you need to make before being willing to separate?

Ideally I would be able to support 2 households so Mrs. Hold and the kids could afford to stay in our house. We shall see how realistic that is when final numbers are in for our fiscal year at the end of June and I see in October what bonus I get and what my salary for next year is.

Hold - is it feasible to have Mrs. Hold move out? I don't know the laws in your state (I'm just learning the ones here), but could you file a temp order of some sort giving you exclusive use of the house? I know that's not the conventional thing to do, but if you feel that she will retaliate unfairly against you and the kids, it might be good for all if she has to utilize her very limited resources just on her own survival. Let take care of her own home while you retain temp primary custody. Think of it as tough love. She'd have to get a full time job and learn how hard it is to support herself, let alone an entire family.

Buy a duplex. Mrs Hold and the kids live cheap on one side of it. The other unit is rented out and the MRS can manage the tenant on the other side.

You sell the house and move into a small apartment which is all you need.

After all, in her words, your house is a dump anyway. So just sell it.

Hold,

This is something I wrote in an email exchange with a female friend:

"I feel that sometimes we maintain relationships way past their usefulness in that it's just easy to do so and therefore avoid change. A relationship that doesn't feature dynamic changes is headed for the scrap heap. Generally we are unaware of the eventual fate. We lose our objectivity about the relationship and particularly our partner."

This is what I feel happened in my ex-marriage. You'll need to change your dynamic to escape Mrs. Hold's orbit.

I can understand wanting to maintain your existing household for the kids, but do you feel you somehow owe Mrs Hold by wanting to maintain a household for her as well? I feel that you might not grasp the reality of what divorce will bring in that neither you or your wife will be able to maintain your current home. I feel that as part of the separation agreement (should you get to this point), you should specify that the house will be sold and then figure out a formula to divide the equity, if in fact there is any equity. Divorce is a drastic change to both partner's finances. My ex made relatively the same amount of income as me, so the each of us had our total income reduced by half post divorce. The gap between you and the Mrs. will be far greater and a close investigation of the laws of your state will reveal just how much child support will cost you. You both will need to economize post divorce in a rather severe fashion. I doubt that the either of you will be able to afford a house post-D. On the other hand, living by yourself will be far more economical, especially given your marriage history.

Whether or not you get divorced is your call, I won't advocate either way. But, if you choose to get divorced, I can assist you in a lot of ways.

I've often felt like sending this thank you note to the ex:

"Dear Ex,

Thank you for divorcing me and setting me free to find the kind of happiness that would have never been possible with you."

I have a few other lines for the thank you note that are not appropriate here.

No, I don't think I owe Mrs. Hold anything other than to cooperate with her in raising our kids. The house is all about the kids and zero about Mrs. Hold. If I wait until the kids are off to school to get divorced, then I won't care what happens to the house or where she lives post-divorce.


I am 100% aware that we can't afford to keep the house if we get divorced. That is the biggest reason I haven't gotten divorced already. So the kids can stay in the house.

I like Stella's suggestion about the duplex. Except for one thing. After we divorce, I have no control over where Mrs. Hold lives. I doubt she will want to live in a duplex or manage a tenant. But perhaps necessity will provide motivation.


Exactly. Again we agree. That is why I have not divorced yet. Don't want me and my kids to take that financial hit.


No, actually it won't be any cheaper for me to live. Since Mrs. Hold gave up her credit cards, we have already cut back on spending.

What will improve is the decrease in pressure to spend. I won't hear about how she wants a nicer car or jewelry or a vacation or fancy clothes. Well, I might hear about it when we talk about the kids but it won't be my job to provide it. She'll have to make it herself or find someone else who wants to undertake that obligation.

Hold,

Perhaps you misinterpreted my economy statement, which I will rephrase and offer anecdotal evidence: I live much, much cheaper as a single man that I ever did as a married man. A man can live cheaper than a woman for a variety of reasons. Notice I said "can" in the previous statement to avoid generalization. My ex was somewhat extravagant in her own way. I about died laughing when I got the initial divorce papers where she claimed as her necessary monthly expenses $150 per hair appointment and her tanning bill. I don't have to mention the makeup, jewelry, etc.(I wish I hadn't bought all of that jewelery for her!)

I run a tight ship and have a home that's far more organized and cleaner than the ex-house. I eat much more healthy. I 'll bet I don't spend 1/4 of what we used to spend on groceries. You can live cheaper. Is a house for your children more important than your personal happiness? Will your children only be happy in their current home?

Booka:

You may be right. Maybe it will be less expensive to live as a bachelor, especially if I have an apartment instead of a house. Alimony and child support plus the expenses of my apartment probably won't be as much as what the house costs all in (mortgage, property taxes, insurance, oil, electric, repairs) plus the $1200 I give Mrs. Hold.

One thing is for sure. My apartment will not be as neat as our house. I am the messy one.

The reason I want the kids to stay in the house is that there are no apartments or condos in our town. It is pretty much 100% single family residences. And we live in a fairly low end house for our town. So if they move, they probably move out of town. Moving to a new town and losing contact with your friends is pretty tough on top of your parents divorcing. That is what I am hoping to avoid. Cutting them off from their entire support system at the same time their parents split. But it looks like I may not have enough patience to spare them that. We'll see.

Last night Mrs. Hold asked me if I am happy about anything in my life. I had to think hard to come up with anything besides the kids. Is my kids staying in the house more important than my happiness? For now, for me, yes, it is.

Buy a couple of fixer home that are cheaper than yours to live in. For now, call them "investments". Later you can use one for you and one for the wife. Then the kids can visit both. You dont need a duplex if you buy a couple of small fixer homes to live in.

Stella:

I don't understand how to find houses in our town that are cheaper to live in. We have one of the least costly houses in our town. It is not all that large. The oil and electric bills aren't going to be cheaper in another house. And the maintenance in a fixer is going to be higher.

I must be missing something. You are the real estate expert. So please educate me. My house is around 2000 square feet, will sell for around $350,000 and we have a mortgage of $270,000. The cheapest house in our town is about 1500 square feet and will cost around $300,000. How do I turn my house into 2 cheaper homes and afford to maintain both??????

Hold,

I feel that the simple answer whether pre or post divorce is to move to a cheaper real estate market. You might find it to be the only rational decision.

Can you sell your home and each rent? I cant understand a town without a variety of homes and apartments. Move.

Booka
You asked before which is more important: my happiness or the kids staying in the house. As I said before, for now their staying in the house is more important to me. None of the towns nearby have anything like the school district that our town has. The towns with similar schools are closer to NY and cost between 2 and 5 times as much for the same house. Towns farther from NY with good schools make the trip into NYC (which I have to do weekly to meet clients) intolerable.

I know I am eventually going to have to balance all these competing considerations. For now I am balancing them at the expense of my own happiness. Others might choose otherwise. That is what makes horse racing.

Stella
I know it seems strange, but that is what we have. When we moved here we had to buy (we planned on renting) because the agents had nothing to show us for a rental. Nothing means that the only thing they showed us was a 2 bedroom condo in a town with sub-par schools that fronted on a busy 4 lane road and backed on a 75 foot cliff. The fact that we couldn't find anything to rent suitable for a family with small children probably shows that moving here was a mistake. Not the only one I made. Won't be my last.

Our town is pretty much 100% single family homes. It is a big issue every year when the town does its budget. 90%+ of the town's grandlist (total value of taxable property) is single family residential. The rest is a small amount of commerical real estate and automobiles. There is pretty much no residential rental property. So every year the school budget goes up to offset increases in teacher salaries, teacher health care, heat, electricity, etc. (which generally grow faster than inflation). And every year our property taxes on single family homes goes up by the same percentage. The taxes drive people nuts. But no one wants to zone for anything except single family houses on lots of minimum 1.5 acres. And every year we buy up more land to keep as open space. Our town is very pretty. But it is a nightmare of land use planning.

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well, i can.
i know the northeast....particularly New England w/ it's quaint little towns.
the town we lived in had NO apartment complexes...No condos.
only a handful of rental houses and a handful of small apartments above exsisting homes.
taxes were high.
schools were great. town was great.

i just checked the MLS listings....there are only 3 houses on the market under 500k..... and they are pretty tiny.
319k is the least expensive home on the market....and its aa fixer upper on a busy street.

so, i know the dilemma Hold is talking about.