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the word worship is a little over the top i guess.
i never really saw myself as a domestic goddess....i did what needed to be done. i didn't love most of it and HE was a better cook.
so being worshiped for that feels fake to me. he could have (should have?) worshiped me for being a sexy wanton wife who was crazy about him though.
i would have appreciated being cherished and respected for being the loving mother of his children.

Mrs. Hold was too crampy last night to help pack. But she is determined to join us. She keeps asking how far we are from the bathroom (close) and the showers (far). Luckily, it is not supposed to rain tonight so we should be able to set up camp OK. I am so not looking forward to her being with us.

Last night she asked if I packed towels. I put 4 towels in the duffle that S12 and I are sharing. I figured that Mrs. Hold and D10 would put 4 towels in their duffle. Mrs. Hold asked me if I packed towels for her. I said that I figured she would put towels in her duffle as S12 and I had. She said "why would you figure that?" in a very annoyed tone. I said "I guess because I am a complete idiot".

When I got done packing and climbed into bed, she reached for my hand. In the past she never reached for me. I always had to reach for her. She reached for my hand. She is coming with us camping because she does not want to be home alone (she hated that last year). She seems to want to reconnect. Wish I did.

She seems to want to reconnect. Wish I did.
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what is stopping you?

From WANTING to reconnect? The complete lack of trust in our marriage. I trust her about as much as my ability to pick up and throw the 26 story office building I work in.

Nothing is stopping me from reconnecting. But there is a huge pile of frustration and resentment and mistrust stopping me from wanting to do it.

Nothing is stopping me from reconnecting. But there is a huge pile of frustration and resentment and mistrust stopping me from wanting to do it.
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i understand.
thanks for answering.
i hope this week-end goes better than you are anticipating.

Thank you.

I will be out in the country with my kids. The weather is supposed to be beautiful. We are blessed with our health. Even Mrs. Hold cannot ruin this weekend.

Nevertheless, it is sad that I view my wife's participation as a minus rather than as a plus.

P.S. Thank you so much for posting today. If I hadn't been prompted to think about the weekend as a whole, I would have forgotten about the barbecue shack we are planning to visit on Sunday. And I would have forgotten to print out the directions for how to get there. S12 would have been quite bummed.

You will be away from your normal environment. Without the usual distractions. Why not have a heart to heart talk with the MRS. Gently and firmly. Tell her how you are having trouble trusting her. Tell her how you feel about her selfishness. Be totally honest yet gentle. You can do it. And in the forest might be a good place to tell her things you feel, write out what you want to tell her ahead of time so when you are alone in the woods you can broach these things. You could ask her, "Honey do you want to know why I have been so distant lately?" and then start.


*What would you want to tell the MRS in the name of radical honesty if you had the strength to do it?

I have done this. It really helps. My old boyfriend, i finally told him how i felt about his immaturity. He could not handle life, money, or anything. I was forced to RUN things in our relationship. I did not accuse him of being immature but I told him I did not feel like a woman around him I felt more like his mother and I did not like that feeling. I told him several more important things I had been keeping in and not even faced to myself.

I cried, and he understood. After that I broke off with him after 15 years. And 5 months later i met my now wonderful husband.

Mrs. Hold just called. She said that some of her friends expressed surprise that she is willing to go camping with me and the kids. She said "it is true love".

???????

well, that's interesting.
she is really reaching out to you.
true love......how does that comment make you feel?

Wierd.

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was she being flirtatious?
is she normally flitatious at all?
how did you respond to her?

I have no idea if she was being flirtatious. Maybe in her mind, she was. At this point, I am so angry and bitter I wouldn't recognize flirtation on her part if she hit me with a feather boa. Flirtation reqires some iota of possibility that sex might occur. Since I am convinced that sex is not going to occur, I am not open to her being flirtatious. I got tired of being burned years ago. She used to be flirtatios, but it never lead to sex. So I stopped reacting to her being flirtatious, and the flirtation stopped. I like it better this way. Not that this way is good. It stinks. But the other way was pure torture.

However, I think it was more likely that she was trying to show that she loves me. She has said a few times that she loves me whether I believe it or not.

She is misunderstanding my position. It is not that I don't BELIEVE whether she loves me. It is that I don't CARE whether she loves me. What I care about is whether she gets a full time job and helps me pay down our credit card debt, relaxes the relentless pressure for us to spend huge money on luxuries, and becomes available to have an open and intimate sexual relationship. If she is not prepared to DO those things, I don't give a flying watusi whether she loves me.

How did I react? I ignored her comment. I didn't have anything productive to say, so I kept my piece.

This weekend she joined us camping. The first night was difficult. She sat in a lawn chair asking questions about what we were doing and, apparently unsatisfied with my responses, giving me directions on how to set up the camp. I started by answering her questions. But as her suggestions became more critical, I told her she was welcome to help us, in which case her suggestions were welcome. Or she was welcome to relax in the chair and watch us. But if she wasn't going to help, she was welcome to keep her suggestions to herself. She got miffed and walked away.

The rest of the weekend she was in a better mood. Thanked me for doing all the cooking. And for making her hot water for coffee first thing every morning so it was ready when she awoke.

But in the end, her being there was more annoying than helpful / comforting. All in my head, I am sure. But that is where my head is. I didn't enjoy her presence. We spent very little time talking. The kids helped me cook, she napped. That was our deal, but it meant there was no alone time. We all went to sleep around the same time (right after making smores), so there was no talking around the campfire after the kids went to bed. Back when we went to marriage counselling, I used to think our marriage was empty. But now I see what an empty marriage really is.

Overall, I had a good time. I like camping. I liked the canoe trip. And I like time with our kids away from their friends and video games and the computer. But Mrs. Hold being along did not add to my enjoyment. If anything, it subtracted from it. That is sad.

She is misunderstanding my position. It is not that I don't BELIEVE whether she loves me. It is that I don't CARE whether she loves me. What I care about is whether she gets a full time job and helps me pay down our credit card debt, relaxes the relentless pressure for us to spend huge money on luxuries, and becomes available to have an open and intimate sexual relationship. If she is not prepared to DO those things, I don't give a flying watusi whether she loves me.

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hold,
ya know, you really should tell her this.

i am sorry to hear the week-end was not as enjoyable for you as i hoped it would be.

i don't like camping myself....actaully, have never gone.
my H is not very wildernessish either.
i would be willing to give a try if someone else was doing all the work though...... i do enjoy canoeing......sorry, i am rambling nw.... i need a vaction.

Maybe when the kids are away at camp. I can feel the effect on me of having decided it is over. The idea that I can stay with her and keep it a secret is ridiculous. We have said before that hope is crucial. Hope for improvement enabled me to tolerate my unhappiness for many years. With no hope for improvement, my ability to tolerate the situation is hugely reduced. I had thought that the lack of hope would make it easier, because it would reduce the disappointment. I was wrong.


The weekend was quite enjoyable. Towing a trailer was easier than I imagined. I even backed it down our long driveway to load and unload. We will defintely rent one in August, unless we find a cheap one on Ebay before then.

Why, did you hope that it would rekindle feelings between Mrs. Hold and me? There was never any chance for that. Our deal was that the kids and I would do all the work. She would not have agreed to join us otherwise. And the kids are too old to sleep together on the same side of the tent, so that meant boys on one side and girls on the other. With no chance for any alone time, there was never any possibility that this trip would be a bonding experience for our marriage. It was not a disaster, which is the most we could have hoped for. The idea is to change the scenery and spend time outdoors with the kids. We accomplished that. I got to spend 1.5 hours canoing with D10. We went fishing. I played frisbee with S12. Those things are what counts.


I hope you get your vacation soon.

Camping is alot of work. Not something to be done on a whim if you don't enjoy it and can afford and tolerate staying in an inexpensive motel. But at $13 per night for the campsite plus $10 per day for the trailer rental, the price can't be beat. Mrs. Hold would never agree to stay at a $23 / night motel - if such a thing even existed within 100 miles of where we live. Heck, when we go visit S12 at camp this summer, the cheapest hotel we could find was $60 / night and that is over an hour drive from his camp.

As for canoing, I bought an inflatable canoe on Ebay. But it is a pain to inflate the 5 air compartments. You might want to look into getting a solid canoe on Ebay. People basically give those away because it takes up so much room to store, so once they stop using it they are anxious to sell.

Anyway, again I hope you get your vacation soon. What are your kids doing this summer? Have they started to feel comfortable where you are living?

It is very common for people to say "She went camping with him, that (horrible experiance) is true love."

It is just a stereotype, it means nothing.

If she really loved ANYONE at all, she would be more giving, caring, and less demanding of money, money, money. She loves MONEY most of all. Not you or anyone.

Why, did you hope that it would rekindle feelings between Mrs. Hold and me? There was never any chance for that.
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not necessarily.
i was hoping you would have a good honest conversation maybe... ....something that left you feeling like you KNEW what to do.

Thanks for asking about my kids.
they are still not loving it here but they are doing better.
my teen-agers are both playing lacrosse and have tournaments and camps lined up.
My OS is heading back east for 2 weeks... graduation and parties and the shore. I am a bit nervous....he's been good so far hope he behaves himself.
we will spenmd a couple of weeks in cape Cod in July w/ a pit stop in NJ to visit family.

We won't be having an honest conversation until I am ready for our marriage to end. Because I have known what I should do for 2 years. I just haven't had the guts to do it. Ever since we stopped MC in May of 2005, I have known.

If we have an honest talk, it will be obvious to Mrs. Hold what we should do. And she may have the guts to do it.

________

ok then....i was hoping you would find the courage to iniate that conversationa nd do what you KNOW you need to do.
or the peace of mind to accept it better.
i just was hoping you'd come back feeling.... better.
i'd like to see you feel better. you deserve that.

Thank you. Not sure that the current me deserves much. But I appreciate the sentiment behind the words. And other versions of me deserve better. Perhaps some day I will become one of those versions.

You see, I am doing better at work this year. I might even get a bonus check when our fiscal year ends June 30. Mrs. Hold thinks that our current difficulties are temporary, based on our financial situation, and that my doing better at work will improve our finances and hence our marriage. She has said several times "Dad and I are not going on vacation this summer because we have to pay for S12's Bar Mitzvah in December, but we will go away next summer".

It is true that if I do better at work, things will change. But not in the way Mrs. Hold imagines. When things at work improve, I plan on leaving her. We are not going on vacation together next summer, regardless of our finances. We are not going on vacation together period. I am having enough trouble justifying staying overnight at a hotel when we go to visit S12 at camp in July. If his camp were closer, I would get up early, visit him, then drive home that night.

Mrs. Hold is trying to turn it into an anniversary celebration. She made dinner reservations at a nice restaurant. Got us tickets for a BSO concert at Tanglewood. She may even offer sex! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> A few years ago I would have been on pins and needles worrying how to behave in the weeks between now and then. Wondering if I made all the plans correctly so maybe she would be in the mood. Now I am merely hoping that I won't be too angry with myself for permitting this little indulgence when the Discover bill arrives.

I have come a long way since I first got here and was desperate for sex with Mrs. Hold. Now I don't care if we ever have sex again. Don't get me wrong, I am still desperate for sex. But not with her. Another conversation we will need to have some day.

Why does SHE have access to the discover card?? why isn't she paying for this herself with her own income??