Hanora:

Did you ever get to see the pictures of me in the boots?
____________________________________________

I didn't.
any chance you can send them to me?

Yes, I guess you live far enough away that it wouldn't violate my self-imposed outside MB contact policy. Got an e-mail address that you are comfortable posting? I am going to be at work late tonight so once you post it, I'll reply and you can delete it.

Hold - I suspect that some people have a hard time respecting those who don't respect themselves. Your desire to maintain your M for the sake of your kids is noble, but it sounds like it's wearing away. Is that right?

But you do have an important reason to stay. Maybe not important enough to maintain your resolve, but maybe it's important enough to seek out some changes in yourself. The outcome might be the kind of R that you've wanted with your W. I'm just saying that some women are attracted to strong confident men.

I have to believe that this idea has already been presented. Surely I'm not the first person to suggest it here.

I agree. My wife is one of those women. Too bad she did not realize I am not one of those men before we got married. I was very clear that I was not strong and confident. She married me anyway.

Most important, I am too bitter and resentful to work toward the relationship I always wanted with my wife. I don't want her to get the benefit of that relationship. If I am going to become strong and confident, I want some other woman to get the benefit of that. I have not forgiven her for the lying and the overspending and gaining weight and denying me sex. Her accepting me BEFORE I become strong and confident is the penance she must do to get back into my good graces.

If she needs me to become strong and confident before she will respond positively toward me (and I believe she does), we have no chance. Because I am not going to foregive her unless and until she atones. An apology is not enough. I don't think she will ever choose to do that. Hence my belief that we are headed toward divorce.

As I said before, years ago I thought I was holding on to love for Mrs. Hold. These days I am holding onto anger and bitterness and frustration. I know I should let go of them. I know I won't while I stay with Mrs. Hold and we remain estranged. If I am not going to foregive her, then I need to let her go.

Maybe your wife wanted a good father for the children she wanted to have and a good provider so she never had to work again. She chose you! Over a dirtbag man she could actually be attracted to. And "want" to sleep with.

Post deleted by nia17

I think you can work on yourself FOR yourself, rather than looking at your situation in such a way that you are giving her what she wants. She may get what she wants but if you have decided to leave her, you are going to leave and she doesn't get strong and confident HOTI.

The saying goes something like this "Slitting your wrists to bleed on your enemies carpet" or something along those lines. You are cheating yourself (of self growth) so that she gets no benefit. This isn't good for *you.*

You do need to let go of your anger and de-tangle yourself from her and her nastiness. I read the remark you deleted and it was despicable. Please focus on yourself and do not be concerned that your self improvement may benefit her as a consequence. Basically you have set up a situation where your marriage is a mutually assured destruction.

I know this is a promarriage website but I would like to remind you that while staying for the children is very noble, you are also setting an example for them about how to relate to the opposite sex. Maybe you think they don't notice what is going on with you and your wife, but I think they probably do.

Sent. You can delete the e-mail addy.

they are great!
thanks.

hey Hold,
have you by any chance read, I Don't want To Talk About It (overcoming the secret legacy of Male depression)
by Terrence Real?

I know it was despicable. I never should have posted about that sort of topic. That is why I deleted it.

No. I will look for it.

Isn't it "convenient" to put the blame on her or the spouse in general for one's own flaws and shortcomings?

As you said, you were weak willed and not confident all along, but lately found the balls to be confident and make a change.

For as however long you've been in MB, that's how long it took you to realize you had such confidence and the will to follow through.

I believe that is differentiation and you're actually ready for "personal growth" and break away from the crutch you placed along in your growth inhibiting relationship with Mrs Hold.

It may seem selfish, mean and unfair, but that's life. She bore your kids and took care of them to give you time to be in a position move ahead in your career.

The same challenge will put upon Mrs Hold, and I believe she will find her growth too eventually. But she won't have the "spending" avenue to help her cope from dealing with it; a spending avenue that you provided and YOU DID NOT DEAL WITH until too late.

I think what might be the the sad part in the end is Hold find a woman willing to give him the best sex, and Mrs Hold finds a man she is willing to give the passionate sex Hold has been looking for all this time. But that's life I guess.

______________


it was reccomended to my H (and me) by MC. (we just started back)
I was paging thru it and i thought of you.

I realize that the inability to forgive and the fear of trying to succeed are my flaws and not Mrs. Hold's fault. I am not blaming her for not "going first". I am merely stating reality. I am overwhelmingly unlikely to forgive her. Given that, I might as well let her go find someone who is interested in having a relationship with her.

She isn't stopping me from changing. I am stopping me. I don't see myself deciding otherwise while we remain married.

I don't think it would be sad if we both found other people who helped us be happier. I think it would be sad if we stayed together out of obligation and neither of us got any good sex and she never got to live with someone who continued to love her.

Sadder still that you two could both become the kind of people who might learn to love each other unconditionally but refuse to do so because of bitterness and anger. And even sadder still that your children will be the ultimate victims of that bitterness and anger.

I believe that the bigger picture comes down to some fairly stark fundamentals; lack of needs being filled by both parties. Instead of trying to rectify it, would you rather descend into greater hurt and regret all while dragging your children down with you? Is that you intent? Because I suspect that will be the outcome.

This feels like the emotional equivalent of a murder-suicide to me Hold. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

That would only be sad if it were possible. If we could learn to love each other unconditionally. We cannot.


Not trying to rectify the lack of need meeting? I spent 8 years of marriage counselling trying to rectify it.

I worked hard at my former firm. Made partner. Bought Mrs. Hold a house she loved. Let her fix it up to make it "hers".

When I showed the first sign of strength and confidence. Asked for what I wanted in the marriage. Insisted we go to marriage counselling to work out our differences.

I was rewarded with a complete shutdown of sex. Weight gain. Lying. Huge overspending. And a complete refusal to address our issues.

That was 10 years ago. Since then whatever strength and confidence I had at the beginning of the process was beaten out of me. I am trying to crawl out of a deep hole. Partly of my own making. And partly of hers.

Do not presume to tell me that I never tried to rectify the situation. I tried. I failed. I am done trying with her.

Do I regret that we got here? Yes. Do I regret what a divorce will do to our children? Yes. That is why I am still married. That is why I did not file for divorce 2 years ago when we stopped marriage counselling after 8 years of zero progress. So I could spare my kids the pain of their parents' divorce.

Now I realize that my kids are going to get dragged down either way. Either by a divorce. Or by my bitterness and frustration with their mother.

You are asking me to let go of the bitterness while staying with their mother. Not going to happen. You are asking me to place my hope in a happy marriage with my wife. I refuse to hope. Hope is too painful. Too many times I hoped, and my hopes were dashed. I hoped every time we tried a new marriage coach. I hoped every time we tried a new communication technique. I hoped every time we were assigned a new homework assignment. I hoped when Mrs. Hold finally admitted to having been raped. I hoped when I found MB. I hoped each time I read a new book about fixing troubled relationships. But none of those hopes ever turned into progress.

Maybe that is my fault. Maybe if I had been stronger and more confident earlier. Maybe if I had had firmer boundaries sooner. Maybe we could have salvaged a happy marriage.

But the past is past. And I do not believe that there is such a future as a happy marriage between Mrs. Hold and me.

You went to MC for 8 years, I understand that. MC and rectifying aren't necessarily mutually inclusive though. Clearly.


Who insisted? I'm not challenging you, just asking for clarification. I didn't quite understand that passage.


This feels like a logic jump. Are you saying that she saw you make partner and reach a degree of success and then purposely punished you by withholding SF and putting on weight? I'm scratching my head here.


When you say that the hole you are in is partly your making and partly her's, in what way? Did you fail to establish your boundaries? Did she violate them? Why did you let her? Again, not accusing, not challenging, asking openly and honestly. Why did you let her violate your boundaries?


I do not presume to tell you anything Hold. I am asking questions - seeking clarification. Sometimes I offer observations. You are free to take them or leave them. You are free to ignore my requests for information too. I hope that you don't.


You have expressed your regret over the situation of today very clearly. I don't think anyone would question your feelings of regret. It has been established. Good. What's next?


No third way? It's either/or? D or a miserable union?


Hold, I am not asking you to do anything. Once again, I am just asking questions and offering observations. I know very little, and I'm hardly the poster-boy for marital success. However, something about your story touches me. Much of it dovetails with the history of my W's parents M and D. I think the ramifications of that are affecting her choices now, 25 years later.


I once heard a Russian saying that roughly translates to, "If my aunt had balls, she'd by my uncle."


Your beliefs are valid and I think that you have good reasons for feeling that way. Beliefs aren't necessarily reality though...

I really do wish you the best of luck on this Hold. I hope that you don't decide to not correspond with me in this thread because of my questions and comments.

I insisted. I complained about the lack of sex. And stated that we needed to go to counselling. And we did go to counselling.


No, I am saying that I complained about sex and insisted we go to marriage counselling and was rewarded with punishment. I am suggesting that my becoming strong and confident while married to Mrs. Hold will not result in her being motivated to meet my needs.

Her problem is not limited to her distaste for my lack of confidence. She also has an issue with intimacy. She would find a strong and confident man more attractive. But she would still not be willing to have sex with him over the long term if he desired to have an emotionally intimate relationship. Which she knows is what I want. She needs to be not only with a strong and confident man, but with an emotionally unavailable one. THAT is what I do not want to be. That is what I am now, and part of what I hate in myself.

I need to be with someone who is not only sexually available, but emotionally available as well. Mrs. Hold has expressed a strong refusal to be that way.



I was afraid. I didn't know better. I thought if I let her have her way she would be more available. I was afraid of her rejection. Stupid of me. Letting her violate my boundaries only insured her rejection.

I was ignorant. And fearful. Now I am less ignorant. And less fearful of her. Still fearful of life and the world. But I am even more bitter and angry and frustrated.


Work up the guts to divorce their mother. Work toward the financial ability to support them and myself after divorce.


Correct. My refusal to forgive guarantees that. I know I should forgive her for my own sake. I don't care enough about myself to do that. I will ONLY forgive her if she atones first. She is not going to atone. She doesn't think she did anything wrong.

If I won't forgive her unless she atones. And she refuses to atone (perhaps for good reason, I am willing to accept that my view of our marriage is possibly distorted and maybe objective observers would say there is nothing for her to atone for). Then it is divorce or misery.

Thank you for the helping me to understand a little better. It is your contention that Mrs. Hold had such distaste for MC that she punished you for making her go with even greater withholding of sex and intimacy. And even if she were to find you more attractive than you feel she does now, you think that she would still withhold those things that you need. Do I understand better now?

And do I get from your next passage that in your anger and bitterness, you are finding some courage and resolve?

If I am indeed clear on all of this, then I can understand your feelings. I don't have specific advice for you, just observations. Your kids will grow up understanding and forming opinions about their mom and dad based on what they see now. Please take care that they always view you favorably and respectfully. I suppose that's obvious, but it bears mentioning. One of those things that's so obvious as to often be overlooked.

Best of luck Hold.