Hold,
Going back to this summer when the kids are gone. You need to be honest with your wife. You need to tell her how you are feeling. That is what marriage is about honesty and that is probably the most important thing yours has been lacking. You can't trick your wife into being the person you want her to be. She will never be that person. My gut feeling is that you need to seperate maybe just for those weeks the kids are gone. Try no contact for 4 weeks and see how you feel after that. Maybe being away from her and not dwelling on her 24/7 will help you see things more clear.

Jill

Yes, good time to separate when the kids are gone. Try it out then.

Hmm. Maybe so. I was going to say that we were honest for several years, and it didn't help. But were we ever honest? I wasn't honest at first. Hid my disappointment. Then I became honest for a few years. But Mrs. Hold wasn't. She lied about her past, the spending, etc. By the time she decided to be more honest, I might have already checked out. Hard to remember what happened when. But you might be right.


I am not trying to trick her into being the person I want her to be. I know she will never be that person. I am trying to trick myself into thinking I can tolerate staying with her until the kids go off to college. If I am trying to "trick" her about anything, it is about my intention to stay married AFTER the kids are out of the house.


Not a bad idea. The kids won't have to know. Instead of negotiating with her over how we are going to spend our time together while the kids are away, maybe I should be negotiating for how to avoid spending any time together (or having any communication) during those weeks.

How old were you when your mom started comparing you to the neighbor kids who were 'more athletic' and/or more attractive than you were?

And what other kind of comments did she make?

And believe it or not..her comparing you to neighbors like that...WAS Abusive..it tells you from your mother, the one women your closest to at that age "your not good enough" there is something wrong with you..that other people won't like..(could certainly trigger fears of abandonment and a lack of self confidence.)

"What if mom wants a son more like ____ next store"

I realize you don't want to BLAME your mother for the way you feel, however, it's not about blaming her, it's about you finding out WHY she couldn't just accept you the way you were, without all the comments and comparisions she made.

Does she realize just how much those comments hurt you?

If I recall, your mom is/was all about appearances as well, much like your wife is? Maybe why she always compared you to others?

Just seems to me, your wife and your mother are alot alike..
and that maybe you need to address those things with your mom, and who knows, if you do, it may actually help you find it easier to address your wife..

or do you have a fear of addressing the issues with your mom? Afraid she will stop loving you? Afraid she will get mad? Afraid it will hurt her feelings (even though she hurt yours when you were little?)

Really think about and consider these things...

Did your mother frequently compare you unfavourably with other kids? I remember you once writing that she had complimented another boy and that you were offended by it.

Yes, she has apologized profusely in recent years.


Good idea. But at this point, the problem is not really my Mom telling me these things. It is the voice inside my head telling me these things. I can tell my Mom to keep her ideas to herself. And have. For several years I hardly talked to my parents while I was working through forgiving them. Now we have reconciled in a way. Which was why my not being able to be open with them over the weekend was painful.


I have no fear of addressing anyhting with my mom. She knows she hurt me. She knows I resent certain events from my childhood and adolescence. And she loves me even when I reject her advice.


Trust me, I have. Much of the hypnotism work 2 summers ago was to work through my relationship with my parents.

The problem now is, I have forgiven them. But I haven't forgiven myself. Or Mrs. Hold. Not sure I will ever do either while we remain married. Because part of what I can't forgive myself for is staying married to Mrs. Hold.

To forgive myself for making a mistake in marrying her. And for not speaking up sooner. And for staying married to her all these years. I will have to leave her. I can't stay and forgive myself for staying. Not even for my kids.

Sorry simultaneous post, question answered.

Does Mrs. Hold make the same sort of comparisons to your kids?

I don't recall his ever making comments to this regard concerning their kids. However, he has made comments that
she does this in regards to his income, comparing him to
men he works with as well as to her friends husbands and
the amount of money they have.

So yes, in many ways, being married to her, is as if reliving the painful words of his mother from his childhood
triggering those same emotions that keep him stuck in a life of self-defeatism.

No, not really. She is big on not making the kids feel bad about themselves by repeatedly criticizing them or making negative comparisons. D10 is quite overweight (96th percentile for her age), but Mrs. Hold never compares her to other kids. We talk about eating healthy food and exercising and making healthy choices so she can live a long life without getting sick. We talk about needing to reduce D10's cholesterol because it is too high. But we basically never talk about her weight or how she looks in clothes or how she compares to other kids.

Almost all the Bar Mitzvah parties in our area feature bands and dancing. S12 hates dancing. We told him it is OK if he picks some other kind of entertainment for his party. That he should do what he wants, and not worry what all the other kids are doing. So we are having a murder mystery party. Every parent we talk to about our plans thinks we are wierd for not having a band. But we think it is important that S12 be allowed to reflect his personality in how we plan his party.

I may be royally messed up. And I am sure we are messing up S12 and D10. But hopefully, not in the same way we were messed up. At least they will have something new and exciting to work through when they are adults!

Exactly. Very very insightful of you.

That is why I feel I have to leave. I don't want to. I hate doing it to my kids. But I don't see any other way to get these voices out of my head. I am not strong enough to tell the voices to shut up. Not while Mrs. Hold keeps repeating them in my ear.

I've lived it, so I know what your experiencing with the triggers.

The ONLY thing that helped me, and I mean really helped me was God's word. Learning what God says and thinks about me,
yes, as a sinner, and all that entails, but also as His Creation, and taking it for truth over what anyone else says. It's retraining your thoughts about you to be His thoughts about you..

Read and meditate on these verses and allow them to seep into your soul.

Psalm 139:1-3; 13-18
Genesis 1:27
Jeremiah 1:4-5; 29:11; 31:3; 32:40-41; 33:3
Psalm 71:6
Zephaniah 3:17
Exodus 19:5
Psalm 34:18; 37:4
Isaiah 40:11

Maybe you should tell HER to shut up. Not in so many words, but tell her you don't want to hear it.

Have you ever heard of http://www.nomoremrniceguy.com/ ?
I think you might want to consider reading the book and you certainly spend some time reading the support forum there. I'm not a male but I found it very insightful.

It's very disrespectful for your wife to insult your earnings and your ability to take care of your family (your home) however, you LET her do it. Put your foot down.

I understand how hurtful her constant criticisms are to you, and how it continues to feed insecurities formed as a child. I know we tend to recreate in our Ms unresolved situations from our childhood. It's likely not just a coincidence that Mrs. Hold is abusive in similar ways to what you experienced as a child. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

The reason I asked about how she treats your children, is because (I think?) you mentioned trying to stay together until after the kids go to college. That may not be the best thing for them, let alone for you.

So you say she doesn't treat them that way. Ok, well, that's good. But still, I am concerned about them witnessing you being treated that way. That can't be good either.

I've read that the best thing we can give our kids is a healthy loving relationship between the parents. Them watching their father be disrespected can damage their own identity and self-esteem, plus it is very bad modeling.

If you are sacrificing (or postponing) your own happiness or relief in order to hang in there until the kids leave the house, that may not be the best thing for all involved. The best thing you can do for your kids is to be a happy healthy father.

I agree with someone (Stella?) who suggested taking the time the kids are away as a trial separation.

I hope I'm saying this right, and not misquoting anyone, I'm at work. Also I may be mistaken re. the best thing for the kids, but that's my opinion.

Hold, have I told you how effective the book, You Don't Have To Take It Anymore, by Steven Stosny, is at helping you use those drops in core value as a signal to look at what really is, and build your core value back up, instead?

If I remember right, MrA took their Walking on Eggshells seminar last summer, and found it really helpful. What do you think, is it worth a shot?

Yes, I have read Stosny. I do need to add more core value building activities to my life. I could choose differently. I just don't see myself doing it while I stay married to Mrs. Hold. That isn't her fault. It is my choice. Based on fear and weakness and exhaustion.

Living this lie is sucking away all my energy. All my ability to choose. All my ability to add core value. Coming home every night and pretending is so hard, I have no energy to do anything else.

I understand that this is within me. And I need to improve myself to produce a different outcome. These days I am too tired and depressed to make the choice to improve myself. I understand it is good advice. But as with so much good advice I have received here, I can see that I am not going to take it.

I think the suggestion regarding No More Mr. Nice Guy is more doable for me right now. I am going to follow up on that. Thanks to everyone.

D10 is quite overweight (96th percentile for her age), but Mrs. Hold never compares her to other kids. We talk about eating healthy food and exercising and making healthy choices so she can live a long life without getting sick. We talk about needing to reduce D10's cholesterol because it is too high. But we basically never talk about her weight or how she looks in clothes or how she compares to other kids.

Almost all the Bar Mitzvah parties in our area feature bands and dancing. S12 hates dancing. We told him it is OK if he picks some other kind of entertainment for his party. That he should do what he wants, and not worry what all the other kids are doing. So we are having a murder mystery party. Every parent we talk to about our plans thinks we are wierd for not having a band. But we think it is important that S12 be allowed to reflect his personality in how we plan his party.

I may be royally messed up. And I am sure we are messing up S12 and D10. But hopefully, not in the same way we were messed up. At least they will have something new and exciting to work through when they are adults!

_____________________

well hold, just so you don't think you are the only ones messing up your kids.......i do the opposite....i am always telling my daughter NOt to eat this or that...So whe won't get FAT!....i keep telling her she'll be sorry and miserable if she is fat.....and i always point out cute little clothes and tell her how cute they will look on her if she was skinny. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
and i always make complimentary comments about cute thin girls.

my son (17)lost 18lbs this year... was just diagnosed w/ chrones...what do I say?
it could be worse...you could have some disease that caused you to gain weight. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

i am ashamed of myself when i realize what i say and how they may take it........but,my own fears and insecurities sometimes takeover and the comments are out of my mouth before i can stop myself........i always apologize and try to explain where these comments stem from.

oh, and btw...i LOVE your sons idea to have a murder/mystery party!

Never worried about that. My theory of parenting is: "you can't hope to not mess up your kids, you can only hope to mess them up in ways they can learn to deal with." I always assumed (even before I had kids), that all parents mess their kids up.


Well, I am certainly not one to chastise you for giving in to your fears and insecurities. I've been doing it for 46 years and don't expect to stop any time soon.


Thanks. Just got the quote for the catering hall. Twice as high as I expected. Not sure we can afford it even if I get a big bonus. Might have to change the whole thing and go back to my original idea from 2 years ago that Mrs. Hold HATES. Now, talk about "no more mr.nice guy". If I tell Mrs. Hold that her dream party is off, and she will have to accept a much scaled down party, she is going to be PISSED.

The question is, why should I care? Given how I feel about our marriage, why should I care if she gets angry with me? Why am I avoiding conflict when the status quo stinks so bad?

Let her be pissed and let her learn to deal with it. You are shielding her from reality.

The reality is you cannot afford it and the reality is that you, your family and your friends are celebrating that your son is becoming a man; you are not celebrating who can throw the biggest, most elaborate party. This is an important lesson your son will learn from you, about what is really matters in life. And he is no less man if the part costs 5k instead of 20K, 30K or 100K. Your son and his friends will have a great time no matter what.

(I had a big, fat obnoxious bat-mitvah. I barely remember it and it was *my* day. LOL. I spent my adulthood attending "who can piss higher on the wall" Bar/Bat Mitzvahs/weddings.)

You will feel better about yourself if you hold your ground on this. What are the consequences by exposing your wife to reality? She witholds sex? She already does that.

Besides, this is JMHO, ask your son what kind of party *he* wants. Let him help you plan it. If he likes baseball, have it at a baseball field, serve everyone hot dogs, beer and french fries. Give out party favors that are baseball hats. What other hobbies does he have? You said you go camping with him, maybe have it a camp ground and plan it with a camping thing. I'll bet doing it like this would be much cheaper than some fancy pants party, and your son and his friends would have a really good time. That is really what matters.

Agreed.


He has already told us he does NOT want a big party. He just wants to play basketball with his friends.

We have about 50 family members who intend to fly in from out of town for the weekend. We have been too embarrassed to considering telling them that they are going to the local gym to watch S12 play basketball. We have felt obliged to throw a big party since so many people expect to be invited from out of town.

But you are correct. We should get over ourselves. And find a way to do something that is meaningful for S12.