MEDC,

I'm going to come from a "how to fix it" point of view. I work with a lot of kids, and have seen this more times than I care to count.

What I usually suggest to the responsible parent is this:

Set things up so that the irresponsible parent still has contact, but evaluate things first and make it possible so that those contacts are "successful".

What this means is, first, evaluate exactly what you believe your XW CAN succeed at doing with your son. This would include having YOUR support (if transportation and money are needed, YOU would do it).

For example, would she be able to just take him once a month to McDonald's for a happy meal, and let him play on the playscape for 20 minutes, then bring him home? Would she be able to successfully take him to the mall for 2 hours every week, have a good time, and then bring him home? Would she be successful in sharing a movie one time a month?

MEDC evaluates what he believes would be possible for XW to commit to. He presents the idea this way: "XW, I know how busy you have been lately, and I want to help you out. DS loves to see you, and I know it is so hard to work things into your schedule. Let's set things up so they could be easier for you." Then, propose the thing you believe she could be successful at doing. Offer what you believe she might need to support her efforts, and YES, you will have to make the effort to support it. Tell her that you know that it's "just for now", and that when things "aren't so busy for her" that things can get back to normal.

If she's willing, follow through.

In either case, you will need to do whatever it takes to support her in parenting.

If she goes along with the reduced schedule, then you will support what you believe she can be successful at doing, and support what will be a POSITIVE experience for both of them.

Because maybe, just maybe, shorter interactions of a positive nature will increase her abilities to be a mom. Over time, as her abilities improve, she will be willing to "expand" the visits and her efforts a little bit.

When you see it working well, propose adding a little time, or a new excursion, etc.

If the first try doesn't work, don't give up. Reduce the plan to a point where she is successful - shorten the time together or the frequency of the visits. If the most she is able to be successful at is meeting him at the library for 10 minutes a week, so be it. Facilitate that.

Just be sure that the time with your son is positive - that is important for him.

In the end, what you are trying to do is save the mother-son relationship. Because to cut her off will only come back to bite you in the rear end later on, in so many ways they are uncountable! I've seen so many times that teenagers come back on the responsible parent with "you never let me see my dad/mom" and "if you hadn't interfered" etc. They get older and fantasize about the absent parent. By keeping her in the picture, and by holding her to some sort of responsibility, and doing the best you can to support the relationship, your son will see her as she is, and there will be regular reality checks, but you will also be providing him some positive interactions with her that can give him the parental love and support he does need from the "mother" side of the fence. The relationship also will have a chance to grow, and you are giving your XW a chance to grow as a parent, too. She just won't know that is what you're doing.

If you try to support something positive, you might just facilitate a positive change here. It is worth a shot.

My only warning is that you be very sure not to go past what she can handle SUCCESSFULLY.

You are also teaching your son that people try, even when other people aren't so terrific.

she has already relinquished all parental rights. this was done in court and signed off on by a judge.



She has put him in harms way. If I chose to I could have had her arrested for her sexual activity being displayed in a way for him to see. I KNOW this as a fact. Her actions led him to be exposed to sexual contact and were negligent. I would consider that harms way. And as far as her being his female parent... the agreement that we have stipulates that in the event of my remarrying he can be adopted by my new wife. In the event of my death, he will be with my brothers family. And BTW, he is in complete agreement with that.


No, you're right. But it IS my position to decide who to let my son be exposed to...including an abusive mother.

I have spoken to the IC's... we tried to come up with ways to keep her invloved... she failed at all of them. So now I have my son, two IC's, a brother with 6 children of his own and my heart all saying she needs to go. She needs to go.

Your comment about it will teach him to run away is far off base. It will teach him that people need to treat you right to be included in your life...it will teach him that honesty and integrity are more than words...it will teach him that NO ONE has a right to abuse you. I agree with the counselor that if I continue to allow her access to his life that I am showing him that I do not honor HIS feelings and that I will not protect him from a person that has habitually harmed him.
Now if she makes changes in her life and can demonstrate to me that those changes are real... I will reconsider this decision. For now, she is out.

SB... great suggestions. I have tried some of that at the counselors urging... it didn't work. The IC has met her as she attended about a dozen sessions with me over the last year...he has told her right to her face that her continued presence in his life is harmful.


Thanks again.

MEDC

So I guess my question to you is this:

If you already had your mind made up and you are unwilling to consider the options of those who disagree with you, why did you ask? Were you seeking approval? And why are you now being defensive because you asked for our opinions and we gave them, respectfully.

From every evidence I see, you had your mind made up already.

Your faithful friend,



CJ

NOT ONE BIT.

Now, I DO own the fact that we got pregnant... but not the fact that she lied and hid parts of herself from everyone.... and has lost everyone else in her life that meant anything to her. She did this all on her own and frankly it started before I knew her....what I own is falling for her bull crappie!

How much does anyone here own for marrying the type of person that would cheat on them? Unless you KNEW in advance that you were marrying a cheater, I say none. Now they Do have partial ownership in the state of the M... but not that they married someone that would eventually cheat.

My counselor has said that people with her disorder can be the most difficult to spot (disassociative disorder). The say all the right things and do all the right things and then bang... you realize it was all smoke and mirrors. The year I dated her before we conceived was wonderful...never had a fight...not one... we just clicked and "discussed" things. From the day she found out she was pregnant she totally changed with me.... a woman that was a strong opponent for abortion suddenly had an appointment to abort my child...the woman that was talking marriage and family with me (and looking for a job close to my home) suddenly wanted nothing to do with committment.
Hey, I have told my story here enough times to not get into it again... fact is everyone... and I mean everyone that knows us feels that the time has come for me to put my foot down.
I will leave some hope that things can change in the future... but I will need to be convinced.

I'm not being defensive at all. I have thanked people for their advice. I do not even feel defensive...
I was looking for advice to maybe hear something I haven't thought of so I could give it a try.

What did you take as defensive?

I don't remember speaking with you before CJ... if I have I apologize... but I just tend to be direct. There usually is no mistaking when I am defensive or angry at someone...
I re read my posts and don't see defensive. I see me responding honestly to suggestion and opinion.

And I commend you for this. It is not a risk I think is worth taking. I have seen the impact of abuse and since my son is young (11) I see no reason to put him in harms way. You obviously had seen something in your H to make that risk worth it. I just don't see it.. since I have already secured the legal ability to remove her and have the advice from people I trust.. I have to follow that. All I was hoping for here was some "lightbulb" idea that could give me a reason to let this continue.

Thanks again for your input.

MEDC

I am with MEDC on this one. There comes a time and place when people reap what they sow. It is MEDC's responsibility to protect his son from outside influences that could negatively affect him. His EX WW qualifies based on what I see here. She need only accept that she has a problem and change to earn her way back into her son's life. Of course if she is like most of the WS's there is nothing wrong with her. It is everyone else that has a problem. She may even have mental issues based on comments by MEDC.

And no everyone that birth's a child or donate's sperm is a parent, a daddy, a mother....That title is earned not awarded because you can reproduce. I always look to say yes to my ex ww when it comes to our son but when she does things that are not in his best interest and only serve to futher her selfish, immoral and unprincipled beliefs and causes emotional, spiritual or physical harm to him I will address it each and every time even if it means we are in court every day of the week if that is what it takes.

MEDC,

Upon review, I apologize. I believe I mistook directness for defensiveness.

So, if you goal in asking was just to seek that one final, possible option that maybe you didn't consider, I would say that you have received your answer. You have considered every option and there really is no other choice (especially if she has an untreated, diagnosed personality disorder).

Speaking from experience, it is just now seven years later that my exH (bipolar, BPD) is beginning to consider the possibility that MAYBE he was partly responsible for our divorce. The chances of her "changing" are extremely thin, but you knew this. Thus, if you, your parents, your C's and your pastor/minister who all know you well and are your wise council all agree, then I would say at the very least that your decision has some reasonable basis. They may not know every detail that you know, but they're wise enough for you to trust their judgment, and it appears there is no other final option.

~~CJ

MEDC,

There is always one other option.

Contact with mom happens when it happens - when she initiates it. BUT - you are in control as to where, and for how long.

You don't make the effort to set things up. You don't shuttle the kiddos back and forth. You don't make sure the contacts are made. None of it. You leave it up to her.

IF she calls and wants to see the child, fine! But, on your terms. You say where, when, and for how long, if it works for you and the boy.

If it doesn't work for you two, then it doesn't, so sorry, maybe another day.

She's abusive, has put the child in danger, and has reached the point where things are just too nutty to deal with. Leave the ball in her court, and let your son know that you have. Be very kind, and very clear about where things are with it, and how you (the both of you) will go about it. Enlist his ideas in it too - you can POJA it with him - he's about old enough, that with your guidance, you can probably set up a system by which you two can figure out a way to know if he's in the mood to see mom or not, if mom is "able" to see him or not, and where/how long.

Nobody says there has to be a rule that it has to be every certain so many days, at X o'clock.

There are just so many things a child can take, and you too. And maybe she will call, maybe she won't. But if you have an agreement with him and a plan in place for when she does, you could cross the bridge when you get there.

Just an idea.

SB

MEDC,

I'm sure you've considered this:

But

Seeing that she has a personality disorder how do you suppose SHE is going to react to this. Legally, you are within your rights, however, IF you surmise there is a high liklihood of her "going nuts" over being completely cut out of sons life could the "going nuts" include actions which will further damage son??? Not that you can predict, control or be responsible for her actions but just maybe the terms your are going to mandate COULD include some leeway or a path to reconsideration. She will still be his mother even if you cut her out as he wants you to today. Someday....son may wish to attempt limited contact. How you deliver the message to her may be of relevance to such future relationship.

Maybe...you propose that for now...for example, you tell her that her son no longer wishes to have any contact with her; however, she CAN prearrange by email or letter a visit at your house for say dinner. Perhaps Christmas afternoon she will be welcome IF she writes an email detailing what she hopes to say, do and bring as a gift...specifically AND such "visit" will be a taken away if and when she EVER fails to follow through with any and all STATED promises.

Like Schoolbus said above...when things get really tough in the young adult years you don't want "mom" out there as a illusionary "friendly" option for him. He may need protection from her today but he MAY need to keep touch with the reality of who is mom is from time to time. You won't be his keeper forever.

I do trust your judgment.

Mr. Wondering

MEDC ... I am trying to help you ... please let me know if I push too hard, OK?

I sense that there is some really lovely PEARL hidden here ... one you can use MEDC ("here" being what attracted you to a woman so clearly flawed)



I know, I believe you



or, you were too much in love to see something not obviously displayed ... see where I am going?

trying to get you to go to the deep end of the pool ... make you a better swimmer, yanno?


families can disown out of necessity for self preservation ... but this is not about them, it is about you, and what attracted you to a flawed woman



not true ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


ding ding ding

give that man a prize

Once you recognize that you were ATTRACTED to crappie, you did not just fall for it ... you get the nugget of knowledge that keeps you from falling for the next gal's crappie ... but in order to get the nugget, you must OWN it


the "type of person" who cheats is ~~~> flawed human

oops ... that means just about any one of us ... or "them"

I OWN that I was attracted to some of the WEAKEST parts of my husband ... yes! It's true.

His weaknesses meant I would not be challenged in areas I did not choose to be challenged ...

ALL of us choose who we fall in love with, in part, because of their flaws, not in spite of them


in other words ... those with this disorder slurp you all over & make you feel sooooooooo fabulous about yourself ... ???? wrong? right? close? far?


may I say ... this is a [color:"red"] red flag[/color] .... TODAY, if you ask yourself: Is it reasonable to never fight/disagree .... for a YEAR? ... or is it "odd" to have someone soooooooo compliant they never disagree with me? what is your answer? Are you attracted to a compliant woman?

if you meet a woman who has to agree with everything you say ... be wary <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> ...

MEDC, I am not saying you are doing anything incorrectly trying to protect your child from someone who clearly has "issues" (putting it mildly)

but, looking back

falling in love with a woman who agreed with everything you said & did to the point of NEVER having a fight in 1 year ... was a weakness of yours .... figure that one out and you make huge leaps forward .... major differentiation and self awareness

I think you are doing a stellar job with your kiddo !

Pep