If you want to continue this topic MOM, why don't you pop over to my thread. I'd like to talk.

MomtoAandZ,

I hope you will read my post to you, above (we were posting at the same time <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> ).

You are not alone and this is nothing new. You sound very remorseful, and I would hate to have you think this won't end...

I would like to say one other thing to any other FWW's out there (FWH's, too)...

As long as you stay and post here, it will be a reminder, and the new, raw pain of some posters will be directed to you, or to others like you, or not to you at all but it will *feel like it*...

Time away from MB might help.

When you feel stronger, you can return to offer support to others and 'pay it forward'... that's what I do... and others... who have been around since the beginning.

Mom, rock, et al,

I have nothing but respect for any FWS. To own up to the hurt caused to others and examine one's self to find the weakness that let the A happen is, IMHO, something great. It must be very hard to do or it would be the norm rather than the exception.


What I have a hard time letting slide is an entitled attitude of someone who clearly still doesn't get it. The F for former is not bestowed on the day the A ends. Returning to the M and agreeing to "try to work it out" does not mean that the WS has had an epiphany and everything is changed. Some understand and see it sooner than others. But some, continue to feel that they were somehow justified in having an A and that the real reasons they did so were out of their control.

A real FORMER WS is easy to spot. There is remorse, a repentant air and a way of taking responsibility for their own actions.

A still WS is also easy to recognize. They appear entitled and justified and unrepentant. (Keep in mind that the word "repent" means to rethink, have a second though or change in thinking....it is a "change of mind" not just actions)

Mom,

I've had enough exposure to your posts to know that you get it. I would never dream of accusing you of being at a lower rung than anyone. In fact, I admire you for the way you have had that change in thinking that means the F has been earned. I wish my W got it as well as you seem to have.

Rock,

I haven't inter-acted with you as much as some, but I have seen in your posts, too, a real heart for accepting responsibility for what you chose to do.

all,

There are numerous others, that unless they tell me they were a WS, I'd have no way to tell, because they accept their own weaknesses and failures and live up to the life style of fidelity. But there are also those that I feel have not yet reached the point of fully getting the point. Their posts are filled with resistance, entitlement and justifications rather than acceptance, remorse and repentance.

Mark

Mark,

I didn't really mean to open a can o' worms...if I needed to vent, I probably should've started a new thread and not tj'ed here.

I put myself on that lower rung, by my actions and now I'm having a real hard time getting myself off there. That's no one's fault but mine. I guess I'm feeling like I deserve to be there and that most people would probably agree with that. That's faulty thinking on my part, I realize that (I own my stuff LA!). But the guilt, man, the guilt. Sometimes it gets quite weighty, especially when you read the pain of other BS's.

Frog,

You missed my point. I agree with you -- completely -- that you can't always assume the BS made a significant contribution to the deterioration of the marriage. In some cases they did, in some cases they didn't.

You can't even assume there IS a significant problem in the marriage -- caused by either spouse. Sometimes there is, sometimes there isn't.

By the same token, however, you can't always assume the WS/FWS's laundry list of pre-A grievances with the BS is trumped-up. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. And I see a few references on this thread that suggest that all or most WS's make trumped-up lists.

But what I was taking issue with in my post -- was MEDC's double standard. He agreed with you that it's offensive to make a blanket statement about BS's... yet his previous post... the one just ABOVE yours in the middle of page 3... has all sorts of blanket black-and-white statements about WS's. Par for the course for him.

According to him, I gather, it's okay to make all sorts of "always" and "never" and "absolute" statements about WS's. But if you make an "always" or "never" statment about BS's... it's offensive. Double standard.

Now do you see what I meant?

Just one thing though,


Nobody's perfect, of course. So, yes, I guess I agree that it's important for BS's to understand that. But I think the real point of looking at what the BS might have done wrong pre-A, is to for the BS to step UP (rather than "back") and FIX it, don't you?

It's not a matter of beating up the BS... or using past offenses as ammo against him/her... or using those offenses to justify the affair. It's an issue of making the marriage better.

IF the BS did do destructive things... and IF he/she refuses to take steps to correct the behavior... I don't see how the marriage can heal and be good. Period. No matter how much the FWS takes responsibility for the affair. And I think that was Trigirls original point, too.

Seems like a no-brainer to me.

--SC

Hi Pep!

Oh and lilmom... that tag line of mine is a direct quote from my daughter when she was just 6 years old. She's quite a little philosopher! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

yep, it is... because WS are bad people. So, you are right... that is par for the course for me. Just like it would be par for the course for you to make excuses for WS.... right?

Such as....??

oh... you mean I need "facts" to back something up that I said? Wow... would that be a double standard on your part? I mean afterall, you made a statement about something being "par" for the course about me (in response to a post on this thread) and I saw nothing to back it up. What's the matter... don't you like when the same thing is done to you?

To an extent yes. Let me give you an example. Pre A my FWW said things were perfect, I was the best blah blah blah.

She has an A and things were horrible.

Now one of her complaints. I didn't kiss her enough. Ok that is true. I agree. HOWEVER by the time I got home she had already drank at least one glass of red wine and usually a bottle a night. NOW her breath was rancid from cheap red wine.

So I said stop drinking I will kiss you more. Well kissing became so much less important at that point.

Next issue I didn't snuggle enough. Great stop drinking and stay up later than the kids.

I can't snuggle with you if you are passed out and asleep.

You know what though, after my FWW's A I was crushed I didn't. I hadn't had time to analyze these things.

She doesn't drink anymore. But guess what today we kiss a little more and snuggle a little more but nothing earth shaking and she doesn't really want it more.

The point is I will take my part. I have taken my part. I just decided I am not going to take every JUSTIFICATION a Fogged out person throws at me.

I will listen to complaints that I can respond to and work thru. But if the intention of the FWS or WS is to say you made me do it so we are even then no.

MOM,

Any statment I make refers to a WS if it is a derogatory comment. Not a FWS.

A FWS has redeemed themselves.

I believe there are two people a WS who is a morally bankrupt person. IMVHO

And a FWS who went bankrupt but is now working with their creditors to make up that debt.

Even a credit couselor if needed.

very well said.

Well, well, well,....look at this! I never expected my thread to do this. No sorrys needed for where it has gone. If one person has taken something good from this, its great. I know I certainly have.

I really think that its hard for some BS not to be critical of us WS because they are so wounded by what their WS has done to them. Some obviously arent completely healed and I can only imagine how hard that must be.


It is so important for us all to remember that everyone here has pain, and healing that we need to do. Whether its with ourselves or helping healing the pain that weve caused, or very possibly both. We need to remember that yes we all have opinions and many of them will be different, but that we are here to help not attack eachother.

Look deep into what someone is saying and try to see through their pain. Both WS and BS have pain.

When I heard someone and I dont remember who said it now,...that WS dont have any standards or morals,....What? That is such crap! That is what I thought at the moment I read it,....in reading further,...it seemed to me the poster was meaning active WS, not FWS. Its all in the stupid labeling,...WS,FWS,BS,FBS.

For the scarlet letters,...I think we WS wear it all on our own. The sorrow, regret, and shame is so emenece(sp). I think sometimes its hard for BS to see that. We need to be gentle with ourselves.

As far as entitlement,...my opinion is that many unhealed WS and BS both have entitlement issues. God and ourselves are the only ones who can tell us whether or not weve earned our Fs and that goes for both the B and W.

I know I have certainly found my footing with this topic. I hope you find your as well.
Blessings!

So which one are you? WS or Xws?

L.

Um, no MEDC, it's not a double standard at all.

I made a statement about you, not backed up by any previous examples. That's true. But you didn't refute my statement. You didn't ask for any examples. Instead you proudly stated that I was right -- that you DO make sweeping black-and-white statements about WS's because they are "bad people". Why should I waste my time, looking for examples of something YOU PROUDLY ACKNOWLEDGE that you do???

I on the other hand, am refuting your statement about me. So I'm asking for examples.

But if we're going to continue this... let's take it to a new thread. This isn't helping Trigirls or anyone else, I don't imagine.

--SC

It was me and you are right... just active WS.

Frog,


Fair enough. Again, that's your experience, and you sound as though you've really thought it through. In fact, it sounds to me as though you've gone above and beyond (for what it's worth).

I don't have any problem with BS's sharing their experiences with their own WS/FWS. But it gets my dander up when you guys generalize to other -- or worse yet ALL -- WS/FWS.

Just a couple of examples from this thread:

Mark wrote:


That's just not true. It doesn't ALWAYS come up after the affair. I've seen several cases where both spouses acknowledge that the WS tried to talk to the BS before the affair... to no avail. Doesn't justify the affair. But the statement that WS never try to fix anything before they go out and cheat is a *false* generalization.

While I'm on a roll, I would also submit to you that, unless you're a total idiot, there are some things that the WS shouldn't have to point out as destructive. Extreme hypothetical example -- If a guy goes out drinking every night until midnight with his buddies while his wife is home taking care of their 10 kids, does he really have to be TOLD that he's screwing up?

Then, Frog, you wrote:



Again, this is a generalization. It may be totally accurate in your situation -- maybe even in the vast majority of cases. But not all.

Thanks for sharing and listening,
over and out,
--SC

FWW - you are former. Currently Recovering BS -- please try to remember this... it helps a lot.

lilmom

This thread has taken an interesting turn! I used to react defensively when a BS made "generalizations", and tried to make them see the speck in THEIR eye. But, well, then I realized that wasn't my job....my job was to take the speck out my OWN eye, and see to it that I owned up to my affair, never mind anything my BH did or didn't do right, before, during OR after! PERIOD.

And then I forgave myself. After that, the generalizations and such didn't hurt me anymore.

Hence the question. Because how we respond makes a difference.

JMHO,
L.

My FBH will admit...that I did, repeatedly and often throughout the years, attempt to communicate my dissatisfaction. I read books, wanted counseling, tried and tried to talk...I had even left on three separate occasions (in years prior children and PRIOR EA).

There would be no way he could say he didn't know I was unhappy.

Before anyone gets their dander up, I'm well aware this is not a justification for an A!! Just check out my postings in Rock's thread...I've got enough guilt for a few FWW's.

I just wanted to corroborate what SC is saying here.

SOME of us FWS's did attempt, for years and years to fix a M that we knew wasn't working. I didn't know quite how to fix it, or what to do, but I knew we needed help. Problem was, DH didn't think anything was wrong, or it was all me. Ergo, years of built up resentment and eventual dwindling down of the love bank.

But now, my love bank is full, DH's love bank is full and we have a better marriage than I ever thought possible.