Zimm, Something to keep in mind. The way she is acting stressed, grumpy, etc... Could be a direct result of your Plan A.

You are not making her actions with the EA, and potential PA any easier. Because you are being a GOOD H makes her choice of being a WW that much more difficult.

Thanks. I'll keep that notion front & center in my mind as this progresses. She is certainly conflicted and stressed. She is and has been talking about our future plans together i.e. camping and finances, so I'm sure that if I'm right about what is going on here, she is having a difficult time.

She is going to have her visit with a counselor coming up soon. I'm hopeful yet nervous about that. How will I know that this guy just won't tell her that she needs to make herself happy and do whatever she wants? I thought of calling him to see what his philosophy might be, but I doubt it would get me far. It's the same guy I am seeing so I'm hoping that this will eventually lead to the two of us in the same room with him.

shinethrough - I said that he shouldn't do that particular thing if he judges it to degrade him. Here's my thinking:

What would he do if he found the underwear? Who would he contact to examine it? What would he be looking for? The chances that another man's reproductive material is on those panties is so small that digging around for them is probably not worth the trouble, particularly if it makes CZ feel kind of creepy.

The image of a clingy, desperate, suspicious, and sneaky man is a very bad thing for a man to project around his WW.

You're definitely right - getting evidence is important. But it isn't all-important. CZ needs to make sure his self-esteem and confidence are as high as they can be. Those intangibles matter. They affect his demeanor and directly affect the way his wife responds to him.

And as little as she seems to care about him right now, she's watching him sooooooo carefully.

ETA:

Actually, I wrote that he shouldn't do *anything* he judges to degrade him. I stand by that. All snooping is not created equal.

Gray -

They have detection kits that you can buy. I know, eeewwwwwww.

Just my opinion, but I felt better when I got the proof. The gaslighting is very emotionally draining.

Believer, do you get those "CSI" kits at the secret agent store?

I dunno, Gray, found out about them here on a spying thread. So I suggested that Zimm get her panties to test.

However, they have not shown up yet.

The semen detection kits are readily available online. One is called Checkmate.

Greycloud,

So the Q becomes, what should he do to uncovwer the truth that is within your boundaries? You make it soumnd as if there are limits to how far one should go go to uncover the truth. IMHO, that is not what folks have been saying around these boards, for a very long time. And you, having been here soo long, should know this better than most. All campfires withstanding.

This man has a right to know the truth about what is going on in his life, and no endeaver to uncover that is somehow degrading. In spite of what extremes he may have to endure.

Many of us have had to endure the same thing, in different forms or another. But I thought with your long standing here, you, of all, would understand that.
There must be something else in that campfire of yours, that burning and the rest of us don't understand that yet.


So what does that mean? It has to somehow pass your scrutiny first before it becomes valid or worthwhile?

I continue to disagree with you.

All blessings,
Jerry

Have an update for all to consider. First of all, I want to thank everyone that has weighed in on my saga here. Your advice and input has been invaluable.

I had a work fucntion this evening, so I knew that I would be late coming home, and that would give the W ample opportunity at the computer. Came home, said a couple words to the W who was in bed, kissed her on the cheek and told her I was concerned for her health due to the stress she's been under. Right away, I came down to check the logs on the computer. I knwe all day that I would garner some info. Anyway, as I scrolled thorugh her activity, I was almost hopeful to find nothing, but then it came. It was an email to a guy that was apparently a part of the whole bus trip experience. From what i could gather, she went there with the intent of meeting a certain guy. the same guy that I thought I saw the emails from. Apparentlty when they met, he reacted to her in an odd way. Didn't want much to do with her apparently. She felt uncomfortable, and had a really bad time. Her words from the email.."i've had a lot of reactions from men, but I've never seen one that reacted that Ed did. I'm not sure what I did, but I have a few ideas....oh well can't please everyone...he never asked what I looked like and I don't know what he expected...i don;t think I looked that bad...my first lesson in being single...alway have a plan B...guess I have a lot to learn before I get back out there."

So..she went there with the intent to meet a guy that she had never seen before (EA,and then it didn't work out for her. What disturbs me the most about this is the fact that she is already thinking about being single, not to mention the fact that she pursued a guy that she never met that extent. Wearing the full compliment of sexy panties and everything. Equally disturbing is the fact that other people are in on what's happening...knowing that these 2 are supposed to hook-up.

In a way it's a relief because now I know. Unfortunately, tough decisions lie ahead. A part of me wants to believe that she's been in a 13 yr. relatioshiip with me, is bored, 50 yrs, old, going throught the change, and is just in a fantasy land. The other part of me says that this is completely unacceptable in my life, I'm wounded because I don't deserve this, and want to ship her off tomorrow. I do want to give her the benefit of the doubt and give her a chance to come to her senses and work this out. I love her, and we have a 10 yr old daughter that will be greatly impacted. However, this is total BS. I may not have been #1 husband all of the time, but I didn't deserve this kick down south.

So..I'll throw it out there to you all. What do you think?

You've got info now CZ. Relief, isn't it?

Shinethrough, what is or isn't okay for CZ is entirely up to him. I was clear about that - he's the judge. My scrutiny has nothing to do with it. He had a problem with the underwear thing. I'd have a problem with it too and I expressed my empathy.

CZ, that part of you that says this is completely unacceptable in your life is smaaaaart. It is completely unacceptable.

I won't tell you what to do. Your child makes the situation complicated. But if I were in your shoes (and I have been) my wife would have to leave.

In an odd kind of a way, it is a relief. As much as finding that hurt, it was much less painful than specualting & wondering.

Here's where I'm at this morning...I'm pretty hurt, but I know that I have to start protecting myself. There's a big part of me that wants to beleive that my W is really confused emotionally, and that there is still some hope that maybe she'll come to her senses here and realize that she is really stressed, bored with our marriage, that I really have been a decent husband, and could continue to be one. I'm not willing to toss it all out at this point and start the process of being really distant and separating myself. I know that she has made some forward looking comments about our future, so I think there's still a part of her that isn't sure she's ready for the big single life. I think this EA has been a fantasy going on in her mind for the last several weeks, and then she went to act on it, and it backfired on her. That in itself is kind of a victory in my mind. Still, it doesn't excuse her behavior.

I want to save it, but I'm fearful that when the cards get laid on the table that it will begin an irreversible course of doom. How do I confront in this situation? I want to make sure that I am calm, rational, and present her with a set of facts, but I am fearful of giving an ultimatium.

Help!!!

Tough news, but at least it didn't advance to a PA.

You have a choice ahead of you. You can confront your WW now, or you can continue to gather evidence, to determine the full extent of the betrayal, i.e. when did it actually start, is this the only EA that she tried to turn into a PA, etc.

If you do decide to confront, I suggest not giving away the source of your information yet. You could tell her that someone told you that she went on that trip to meet someone, you're certain of your source of information, and take it from there.

BTW - if your WW was depressed before she went on that trip, she's likely to be even more depressed now, after being so flatly turned down.

If it was me, I'd probably choose to snoop a bit more to find out more details of the OM (name, e-mail, M'd, etc), before exposing. In the interim, I'd Plan A as much as I could stand.

Do I still expose the other M? If he went there looking for something, then didn't like what he saw and backed off, do I still put him in the situation. Don't know too many details about him...know where he works, name, etc., butnothing about personal life, M ?, etc. Hey, maybe he was the one who was rational and figured that fooling around with a married woman wasn't a great idea.

CZ,
I do not think I would expose OM at this point as you have no "proof" that he has done anything inappropriate. The romantic significance of this meeting may have been wishful thinking on your WW's part. Probably this guy is a scumbag who is looking for some cheap sex with a "hottie" and your WW didn't fit his mental wishlist for whatever reason.

Your focus still needs to be on achieving YOUR goals. Based on what you are writing, it doesn't sound like you have clearly identified those goals. You seem to vacillate between wanting to restore and protect your M and wanting to end it all. I understand the confusion you must feel, but I don’t think you will be able to make any progress until you decide what you want.

If you want to save your M, this is a great opportunity for you to make your WW feel desirable, safe and protected. If you want to end you M over this betrayal, then you really have all the evidence you need for a D based on infidelity. If you do not decide what YOU want, then you will not be able to proceed towards that.

Decide your goals. You can always revise them if the reality is not what you thought it would be, but the experts on the board can give you a sanity check. For example, if you decide you want to save your M and you are going to PlanA, then start to give up because it is not working after 3 weeks, the experts will tell you that ### units of time is a more realistic timeframe, give it that long before you decide to quit. That kind of thing. Right now no one can provide the best counsel because you have not decided what you want to achieve.

Talking to the Harley’s may help you decide and may also help your WW decide what she wants to do. I am sure that she does not want to live a life where she hides her actions from you. I would bet that both of you would prefer a life where the mother and father of your daughter were in love and happy with each other. Where your daughter’s parents felt close enough and safe enough to be completely honest and open with each other at all times. Where your daughter’s parents could show her how to live a life of thoughtfulness and care and happiness.

Well, as usual my opinion maybe a little different than most.

I think you've got enough evidence to confront your wife at least. Forward that email on to a personal email address of your own that WW can't access. Then, confront her about what she had 'planned' for this trip. Don't tell her HOW you know...simply tell her that you know that she was going to hook up with "Ed", and that her friends were in on it.

Don't give her any more detail than that...and do NOT let her talk her way out of it.

I'd hold off on exposing to family/friends at this point, and start with confronting her about her actions and behavior. Do NOT come across as whimpy, crying, whiney, etc...be STRONG, adamant about the fact that you KNOW she's carrying on in a manner that she shouldn't, and CLEAR that you're NOT going to accept that kind of behavior anymore!

See what her reactions are, and work it from there. Let her know that you can forgive her...ONCE.

And you need to sit down and think about what steps your WW is going to have to take here...changing jobs/friends/something.

Make sense to you?

Yes, makes sense. Thank You. Gameface asked me to identify what I want. What I want is to save the marriage. I really think that my W is going through a big emotional change right now. She's getting older, still looks great, but...age is coming. I think she's beautiful. She's probably experiencing the hormonal change as well, and I think that we have maintained a relationship for a long, long time not meeting each others EN. So, she's overwhlemed with all kinds of conflicting emotions I think. I'm willing to admit my faults & shortcomings and start recognizing the areas that I can improve our marriage in. I'm willing to be the best husband that I can be for her. My fear is that she is just simply unwilling to work at that and will give me the too much has happened speech.

I don't want to end it all. I think the fact that she went on this trip and then was flatly rejected may have been a nice 2x4 for her. Maybe that was a bit of a fantasy bubble buster for her...a dose of reality.

The reality for me though is that I do have to prepare for what I'm going to do, and have to on some levels, prepare for the possibility that this isn't going to work.

The only problem that I see with this approach is that "delayed exposure" may not work as well as exposure to all parties concerned at the same time. She's been devious with him up to this point - the approach you suggested might just drive her activities further underground.

I say holding off at least until mre details about the OM (e.g. is he M'd?) become available. Then expose to WW, OM, and OMW at the very least. The more sudden and complete the exposure, the less likely the OM and the WW will be able to spin a yarn around their behaviour.

MiM...normally, I'd completely agree with you. It's usually better to do a blanket exposure WITHOUT talking to the WS first.

I suggest something different in this case because of her 'rejection'. It's an opportunity to capitalize on her feelings of hurt and rejection, and hopefully head things off before she attempts to do this with someone else, or renew things with this guy. If he does a good balance of showing how much he does love her and will forgive this ONE time, along with being strong and setting some clear expectations going forward, it's a good time to do things BEFORE it goes further.

Part of the reason I suggested that he keep the email, and NOT tell her how how he knows about the situation is so that he's got that as an exposure tool...it's his 'proof' if you will.

To clarify what I wrote earlier... if I were in this situation again I would, with no anger, ask my wife to leave immediately and also give her a clear path back to the marriage. I would refuse to live with a spouse who was trying to date. I don't care what stage the would-be affair is in. It's a boundary. No dating, not even the fence-sitting wishy-washy kind, while you're married to me and sharing a home with me, period.

CZ, if you use the Harley plans my one piece of definite advice is to give your "plan A" a short duration. Decide what it will be in advance, and stick to that. I've seen a suggestion somewhere on the MB website that men should do it for six months if possible, and that is just dreadful advice for a good man like you to follow.

CZ and MIM,

CZ knows what the presence of infidelity in his M feels like now correct? Studies have shown that the best indicator of whether or not infidelity exists in a M is the intuition of the BS. So does CZ need to prove anything to himself or anyone else from here on out?

I went to great lengths to investigate my WW. I had to prove to myself that I wasn’t crazy. Now though, I no longer feel the need to prove anything. If I suspect infidelity then it is plan D for me. I know that Mrs Gameface is capable of betraying me, I know that she has plenty of opportunity and I know that she is way too smart to ever let me catch her again. I don’t need to catch her though, if I feel that feeling again, I know the source, it is pretty unmistakable and only my own denial made it so hard to see.

So CZ let’s Mrs CZ know that he KNOWS. There is no doubt and no use denying it. If Mrs. CZ wants to deny it, it is because she wants to continue that behavior. CZ can express that he feels that is unacceptable and will not be a part of a M where only one partner will be honest and committed. CZ can also let her know that he has already acknowledged and is working on his own behaviors that have contributed to a state of M where the affair was even possible, and further that if Mrs CZ will commit to being honest and open, then he can forgive her.

I personally would recommend talking to the Harley’s first because they can help not only with the plan but also with how to articulate these thoughts in a way that is clear but also non-threatening to the WS. The WS is obviously afraid of the reaction of the BS, that is why they lie. Or at least one of the reasons. If CZ can articulate this well, his WW reaction will probably be, “Holy Cow! I cannot believe the depth of love CZ has for me! How could I be so stupid to throw that away?!? I am a horrible person and he loves me anyway?!? It is safe to be honest with him and I can be my true self, not what the world expects of me and I want to make sure I never jeopardize that again.” The freedom to be your own true self and not an actor that has to meet the expectations of the world is very liberating. Knowing that she has the opportunity to come home to that every day has got to be a powerful attractant.