Zimm,

Now is your opportunity to ALLOW your WW to come clean without hanging the proof over her head. Give her the opportunity to come clean, not wiggle free. Keep your information, and how you gathered it guarded. Don't burn a bridge that maybe useful again later.

She will push you for answers on your knowledge. Give her little or nothing that will allow her to determine your methods of gathering what you know. The cat and mouse game my not be over yet.

Her coming clean without holding the proof over her head will make recovery better for both of you.

Expect you will change your mind on recovery -vs- D or separation on an hourly basis, or at least frequently! Do not leave the house or threaten it. Do not condone her moving out.

Do not make threats you are unsure you can not keep (I.E. If you don't tell me the truth, I will D you).

Plan your response to all forseeable reactions she may have.

Most important, remain calm and strong throughout!

Thank you everyone. So, if I want to save this then, I continue to Plan A allowing her to see that I am a loving, caring considerate husband that will offer her a safe place to be herself in an honest, committed, loving relationship. However, I establish the boundaries at this point, which for me, include a new job for her immediately, an honest dialoge about feelings and emotions, and a concerted effort on both of our parts to restore the M to not "the way it was", but to an elevated, better place.

At what point do I confront her with this? Sooner the better or let her see me making some more changes?

Here's a question. While I would like to think that she is awfully conflicted, confused, and in a fog, her email also kind of suggested that her mental state is that she sees herself as single. For example, I know that the little card they give you at the casino had her maiden name on it. And obviously, she's telling people around her that she's moving on form me, so much so, that she went there to meet a guy she had only talked to on the phone & via email. So, I'm kind of wondering if there's really no amount of Plan A ing that I can do and nothing that I will say that will make her change that frame of mind. It's almost as if the decision to reconcile with me is off the table, and I wasn't a part of the debate. Pretty lame, irresponsible way to handle things, but that's my situation. Has anyone out there had a similar exoperience, or are all of these experiences the same? I don't want to hold on to false hope either.

And THAT'S what I'd be confronting her on!

She's NOT single. She shouldn't be telling anyone that she is. Not until she IS single. THAT is what you need to call her out on, and make clear that you're not going to tolerate her acting like that.

Just my opinion...

Yeah, but what I'm asking I guess is, do people just do that? Go 13 years in a relationship, decide they are done with no debate, and start calling themselves single again and ready to date?

Mine did after 7 years. I was told "we are only married on paper". It is all part of the package that comes with an A.

DF, your WS has moved back home with you?

Good morning. Struggling a little bit this morning. Last night went and did the best Plan A I had the energy for. WW came home and did her normal routine. She was a little more chatty than usual, but it was mostly about work. It's odd because she still talks about things coming up in OUR future, like things we need to accomplish, house repairs, finances, issues with daughter. She is very focused on this job, and coming home and exercising, and is apparently oblivious to the pain that I'm in. Kind of like she's determined to do her own plan a, but it isn't an effort for the benefit of our reatlionship, it's all about her. Like she's just decided that she's done and needs to take care of herself so she can move forward. I try my best to put on my game face, let her do her thing, and then when she's in bed, she allows me to kiss her on the cheek & tell her goodnight. This morning as she was leaving, I just held her hand and told her to have a good day. Nothing in return. She won't touch me in any way. One would think that if she were even turning a slight corner in her mind, that she might at least break down and give a hug. I woke up this morning just longing to be touched by her.

It's tough for me to know what I know, and it will be equally difficult for me to confront her with that knowledge. We both have psych appointments on Saturday...her first, my third. I keep hoping that after her rejection on Sunday, and maybe with the shrink getting involved on Saturday, that maybe she will begin to reevaluate. I keep coming up with ways to defend her actions in my mind..."she's confused, hormonal, stressed, etc.", but I think that I'm doing that to create a hope that may or may not be there. She isn't communicating with me at all, and frankly, is treating me like a roommate on most levels.

Ugh!

CZ,
I know that this is a hard concept to wrap yourself around, but...You need to make your changes without any expectation of positive feedback from your WW. You need to eliminate LBs because that is the kind of person you want to be for yourself. Your meeting of EN is a gift, not a barter. If you have expectations of your WW, you are setting yourself up to feel resentment when she does not meet those expectations. She will not meet your expectations. She might down the road but you cannot count on that.

I had (have still maybe?) the same ADDICTION as you do. You are addicted to positive feedback from your WW. Until you can overcome that, you will not be able to focus on improving yourself, you will continue to focus on how she is failing you. Focus on how you can be the best man you can be. You must not depend on your WW's validation of how good of a man you are, you must be your own best self. Once you are on that path of greatness, that is when you start to see fruits of your labor. It is a process or journey with no end though, you can measure progress from where you began, but there is no end.

When a spouse has a wayward mentality they very often lie to the therapist about what is really going on in their lives. Don't be surprised if your does that same. She will somehow just try to get validation pertaining to her plans to be single.

I have an XSIL who decided she had had it with her marriage and once she was going in that direction nothing was going to change it...it was like a switch went off in her head. She spent several months working on setting herself up. She had met someone else. She was a Christian woman and somehow go validation from their pastor as to her plans and new relationship. I never understood how that happened. My brother in law, (husband's brother), woke up to his emotional abuse and neglect too late. He had been depressed, negative, and self centered too long.

I am not saying this is your situation, or to discourage you, just how it happened with her.

Since your wife is still discussing future plans with you then you may have hope to turn this around and save your marriage before she goes too far out there. Though there are lots of similarities, there also seems to be lots of variations in WS's and BS's out there, be they men or women.

Thanks GF & Trix. GF, I understand the concept completely. It's just so hard! You keep hoping that she's noticing, and I keep looking for any crack in the armor that suggests that she is looking at this differently. I had a habit of, prior to the blow-out, going over to my step-brother's once a week or so during the week and hanging out..having a few beers. Since I started the Plan A, part of my plan was to reduce the amount of time I spent hanging out with friends because I relaized that I was filling a void by doing that, and in doing so, created a void in her. At any rate, I haven't been anywhere in the last couple weeks, and finally last night I decided to go see the step-brother. Told WW where I would be and told her that I hadn't seen him for a couple of weeks so I was going over for a couple hours. She said she noticed that I hadn't been heading out too often.

Trix---thanks for sharing. I hope that isn't the case here where she has just flipped the switch, but it's possible. This is exactly how her last relationship ended, and ours started.She and I worked together. She had been a long term relationship with someone - 10 years I think, and they lived together. I noticed her wearing some revealing things at work just from afar. One day she simply approached me and told me that she was attracted to me. We agreed to meet in a park the following week because she was afraid of being seen by someone her boyfriend knew. I think that we "made out" at the park. Within a week...maybe 2, she decided to go home and pack her stuff and move in with a friend that we worked with. I'm guessing that probably within those first couple of days she was there, we were having sex. Her BF was completely devastated...had no idea what happened, what went wrong, etc. Of course, he tried all of the typical things...promising to be better, pleading, writing emotional letters, leaving messages asking her to go to counseling. She refused any real contact with hm, and she continued on with me..and now here we are. Same actions on her part. She's acknowledged that the way she's feeling is the same way she did then about him where something in her just snapped. She also acknowledged that the way she handled that was a mistake. But, now here she is going & trying to meet some guy that she's never even seen before. I don't know if she's simply decided that she's done or not. I think in some ways she has.

So, what it sounds like is that she's already got a pattern of behavior here.

I'm not sure what else to suggest to you here, friend.

CZ why did it take you so long to mention that?

Yes, it's a pattern of behavior, no question. Our last conversation about the M was probably 8 or 9 days ago, and she acknowledged that this was exactly like how she felt then. She also acknowledged that it was a mistake, but I keep seeing her act in the same manner.

Owl, are you implying that this is a foregone conclusion? That she's just done?

I thought that I had already mentioned it. Sorry. Lots of things going on in my head.

I think so too, in some ways. At least, that's how I felt around the time I had my affair.

But for me, it wasn't as instant... or complete... as flipping a switch. It was more like building a wall. With each passing year, a few more bricks were added to the wall. And in the months leading up to my affair, I started piling on the bricks as fast as I could.

I think you still have a chance to knock down your W's wall. The fact that she admits she handled the breakup of her previous relationship poorly.. and that she's still talking about her future with you... would indicate to me that she's still at least a little bit conflicted. (Some like to call it fence-sitting or cake-eating.)

But I also suspect your window of opportunity may be closing. From my perspective as a FWW -- You're getting great advice about your plan-A. I can't even imagine how grueling it must be, but keep it up for a little longer if you can. At the same time though, I wouldn't wait to much longer to lay your cards on the table.

I like Owl's suggestion of how to confront her on what you know so far. I think it would be wise to set some boundaries... but I would caution you to think very carefully about what those boundaries will be. I worry about the suggestion that you ask/demand that she leave her job -- the thing SHE seems to think, though stressful, has given her a new lease on life. That might be a deal breaker for her. I'm not saying you can't revisit that later... but at this moment, it might push her over the edge.

--SC

Thanks SC! I think that your assesment is pretty accurate. This has been a slow process of wall building and internaliztion for her. And now, she is piling up the bricks as fas as she can, walling me off emotionally. Getting really into the job, and it's apparent to me at least, that is a big deal for HER. It's taken a different tone, and I do think that she does see it as a new lease. Something that she feels like she needs, because I think in her mind that she knows if this goes down the path that this is going, then she will certianly need it. And, this is the first time in years that she has had employment that pays enough to allow her to support herself should she decide to do so.

I'm not sure how to break down that wall. I agree, she is conflicted. And I agree that I should be careful with the boundaries I set. Any suggestions along those lines?

Zimm,

I don't know that its a foregone conclusion that she's gone.

What I do know is that this makes this appear to me as though she's a serial cheater. It's her behavior pattern...when she no longer feels like putting the effort into her current R, she seeks something else.

I don't have any good advice on how to deal with that situation. Serial cheaters behave differently than your 'normal' one-time wayward. If my wife were to do what she did again, I'd end our R completely, without question. I have no desire to fight that kind of battle, so I don't have any good advice to give you on how to deal with your situation, given this latest information.

Hopefully you'll get some info from the 'real' pro's around here.

I don't know that I could characterize it as serial cheating. She was with him 10 years, and has been with me for 13. It is certainly a pattern for her in that this is remarkably similar in her behaviors and actions in terms of how she chose to end that relationship. As I mentioned, she acknowledges the fact that the way she chose to end that relationship was poor judgement on her part. However, that hasn't stopped her in acting in the same way I guess.

I can't figure out what need she is trying to fulfill in doing that. Attention? Desirability? Something that proves to her that she can still go out at 50 yrs. old and get the looks from guys? I always knew that she was self concious about her body image, and her age, and thought that I made good attempts to reinforce for her that I thought she was beautiful. Whatever need it is that she's trying to get from meeting someone else, she apparently doesn't want from me. So, how can I possibly fill that EN?

That's what defines her as a serial cheater. She cheated on her previous boyfriend with you...and now she's looking to cheat on you with someone else. She's acting in the same manner AGAIN...knowing that she shouldn't.

As far as her EN's...you've done the questionairre? She doesn't have some 'unique EN' that can only be filled by someone else. Now...she may have some kind of emotional PROBLEM that's causing her to act the way she is.