[email]sH@@[/email] I hate this thread !!!!!!
It is an exact parrelel to exactly what happened in my own life with my WW!!!!

That being said, god bless you in yor recovery. Mine hs not exactly been a perfect DR. H recovery;


All Blessings,
Jerry

I think several things have happened that are working in concert here. One is that we have spent a long time not meeting each other's needs, or even trying to. I just thought at the time that long term relationshops just worked that way. That eventually, things get stale, and you focus on jobs, kids, daily life. So, while she would sit in bed at 9 pm and watch "her shows", I would hang out in the garage and have a beer and listen to music. It just worked that way. She never made an effort to change and neither did I. As I worked and went to school over the last 4 years, I've let her shoulder most of the burden for the domestic chores. Not that I dodn't do anyhing, I just didn't do enough. She hasn't been affectionate towards me in years, and our sex life was basically me forcing the issue and her feeling obligated. She claims that she was never really in love with me, knew it wouldn't work 10 years ago, but has just been going through the last decade unfufilled and living her life for the sake of others.

She has never had a "good" job in her life. A job that paid well, offered a challenge with potential for growth. I have encouraged her for years to get out there because I thought that she had much more talent & potential than she allowed herself to have. So, last fall, I started sending out resume's for her. I wrote the resume', I wrote all of the correspondence. What do you know? She lands an opportunity that pays well, and is a career job. This is in October last year. In November last year, we go and buy a camper for our family to get to on weekends this summer. The job starts off for her and it's alot to learn. She's nervous about her ability to do it well. Again, I'm encouraging her, telling her that there's going to be a learning curve. Be patient it will come. For the first couple months, she was stressed but no overwhelmed. At the beginning of March, she came home and told me that they were really laying it on them, that it was going to be a tought month. We had an aruguement one evening about sex around this same time. Classic arguement of me wanting it and her not. She spent the rest of the weekend working on the computer with her work things, snapping at my daughter, just being generally mean to everyone. It was a rough weekend at the house, and rough weekends were pretty uncommon for us. I sent her an email the following Monday letting her know that I was upset with her nasty attitude toward our daughter and to me. The reply I got back from her was basically that maybe we should consider splitting up because we've been having this same arguement for 10 yrs. now. Doesn't want to spend the rest of her life arguing about her lack of sex drive. I spent first couple days relling from it. And then it started to seem a odd to me. Then came the hiding of things. Then came the discovery of the "cute" emails. Then came the incredible tension where she shut me down and wouldn't let me talk. And here comes the bag of new bras, new nails, lots of clothes shopping and focus on appearance. The bus trip came and went, and she went on the bus trip to meet a guy that she had been flirting with, but nothing happened. That was last Sunday. Her attitude hadn't changed at towar me until Friday, which was when we had the "talk". Told her I knew about the planned meeting and she shrugged it off as no big deal. It was just goofing off and nothing was going to come of it anyway. Friday she told me that she was done with our M, that she didn't want to live the rest of her life in a relationship where she was unhappy. Only has so much time left on Earth, better to be happy with herself. She says she wants nothing to do with relationships at all. Tired of pouring energy into something that gives her nothing in return. Gave our chances of saving the M very small. Saw the counselor Saturday, never made a follow up visit appointment. Told him the same thing she told me. So, now I find the suspicios emails from a different guy. there's nothing concrete, but they have a pretty high degree of familiartiy to them. They aren't communicating about business, I can tell you that much. She's telling him that she's looking forward to getting out in the world again, and he seems to be helping her with that. I can't tell if they have a thing or not, if it stinks, it's probably rotten. Anyway, all of the pain, hurt, anguish, D is unavoidable talk over the weekend...the last thing was, "Maybe you should stay with a friend fo a cooling off period." "Why?" "To see what it might be like without you here..maybe I won't like that feeling. What if I made a mistake or overreacted?"

And that's part of how we got here today.

What Harley books do you have? Will she take the emotional needs questionaire? Can you afford Steve Harley for a counselor? [he is around $185 and worth every penny] He is more of a coach than a counselor in that he will assess and give you guidance rather than charge you to listen yourself yap for an hour. He doesn't waste your time. If he counseled with your W, he might be able to give her HOPE that it is very possible to fall in love again. I think she feels she is done because she doesn't realize the possibilities here.

I have nothing by the Harley's as of yet, but I plan to. I would pay for the counseling in a second if I actually thought that she would participate with an open mind. Remember, she's decided that it's over, it's done...why bother trying, there's no use. Not interested in saving it.

Zimm, go online here and order Fall in Love, Stay in Love and Surviving an Affair. Alot of what we are telling you will not make sense until you read at least SAA.

But, she really hasn't decided anything. She vacillates alot and is very unsure. The typical WS is very confused and she is no different. You must view her as you would a falling down drunk and not take her statements seriously. You can only go by her ACTIONS, and her actions most certainly DO NOT indicate "it's over." Rather, they indicate she is CONFUSED.

If you get an appointment with Steve, he will help you persuade her to counsel. He will tell you what to say to get her online so he can talk to her.

She sure didn't seem confused when she told me the odds of us saving this were about the same odds as winning the powerball lottery. See, I'm confused as well. I don't know that there is a legitimate A involved here. I see a person that looks like they are trying to engage in another life, and part of that other life means that other people are involved. So, in some ways, it's like she's just checked out of her M to me, accepted that her life will be different now, and it' time to do those things you do when you're single. Sometimes it seems that she's just decided that this chapter is over and new things are on the horizion, so why not explore them? And if that's the case, why do I want any part of that? I think that the next step in some ways is to just hold her feet to the fire and tell her that if she wants a D, then it's on her to her to figure that out and get it rolling. In the meantiime, I'm not going anywhere and neither is my daughter. If she wants the independence, the go get it, but understand there's a cost associated with it. But then there's that nagging question of her statement last night about my staying with a buddy for a cooling off period, and wanting to see what things would be like without me here. I know, classic stuff, but it suggests to me there is a doubt in her mind. Keep in mind also that there is no affection demonstrated on her part..at all. And, there has been no SF for about a month now. She told me that the loving, physical aspect of our relationship is done. Over.

Zimm, the point of everything I am telling you is designed to ATTRACT HER BACK INTO THE MARRIAGE. She feels one way today and the suggestions I am giving you are designed to change that. You can't make decisions based on what she SAYS SHE WANTS, because that will change from day to day. Her plan is untenable and will fall apart, so it would be foolish to take her seriously.

Plan A is a carrot and a stick. You should also be doing this at the same time:
All of the stuff she says is classic affair fogbabble and they are about as decisive as a falling down drunk. So, instead of wasting all your energy focusing on the words of a falling down drunk, why not spend that energy on a good Plan A? Such as calling Steve Harley and setting up an appointment and getting that book I suggested? Hold her feet to the fire AND call SH and get those books. The carrot and the stick...

Good advice ML, thank you. Have you done the counseling with the Harley's? Keep in mind here that I'm not sure that there's even an A happening. I should state, and I think that I have in earlier posts that, it isn't like my W is sneaking off with unaccounted for time or anything along those lines. I have no cell records with oddball numbers on them. All I have is that she sent some flirty emails to some guy, got on a bus trip to get away for the day and to meet this guy. When she got there..nothing happened. The way I knew nothing happened was because I saw an email to a different guy that had apparently hung out with her all day as he knew the situation was uncomfortable for her. Now, he's the new focus of the emails where all I have are bit and pieces of her receiving dating advice from him, about how you always have to have a back-up plan, etc. So, she's obviously filling this guy in on our M and her unhappiness in it, and while I can't tell for sure, it looks like tis could be something new brewing. Or, it could just be her trying to feel like there's another life waiting for her out there.

The reason I think you should counsel with SH is that he can teach you to meet her needs and attract her back. He can give you a GAME PLAN to do this. She has fallen out of love and that is what he can help you with. He can even tell you what to say to get her on the phone with him.

I have not counseled with SH, but wish I had. Many here HAVE counseled with him. He is THE BEST OF THE BEST. Even so, we counseled with a local counselor who only used Marriage Builders principles and introduced us to MB. It completely changed our marriage. This is the real deal, Zimm.

I don't think she is in an affair with a specific person right now, like you said, but is trolling for one. I suspect there may be an affair that you don't know about that ended sometime in the recent past.

Could be..hard saying. If she had an affair recently before all these signs, then she did an excellent job of hiding it, and I would have no idea how she would have had the time for it. I think it's more likely all the things i discussed in earlier posts. She's not thinking clearly. She's acting as though she's just been repressed for the last decade, and now it's her time. Kind of funny..when I met my W, I was 25 and she was 38. I was thrilled to have an older woman that had stability, and figured that I would never have to go through one of these "freak outs" that I had experienced with younger women.

CZ, whatever has happened has caused her to fall out of love and completely detach. That is the biggest issue that I see here. And that is where I think Steve can help you the most. All of this other stuff will be resolved if that is resolved.

According to her, the biggest thing that has caused her to fall out of love and compeltely detach is me. We were never right together according to her, and this has been one big long decade of just grinning and bearing it.

This is called "rewriting history." The words of a falling down drunk. She is rewriting history in order to justify the unjustifiable.

Do I just continue here to plan A her? Let her know that I'm willing and open to make the marriage work, and if she wants to get a D, then she's going to have to make that decision? I've done an ok job with Plan A'ing her. Trying not to talk about superficial topics, not talking about the M. Trying to show self improvement, of course the stress diet has helped me lose some significant weight over the last few weeks, and I am looking better. I still though, will try to initate physical contact because I'm really suffering from none. I sleep on the couch most nights because the bedroom has become her sanctuary. I will admit that the times I have been in bed with her, I will try to snuggle up next to her in some way. I give her a kiss on the cheek in the evenings and tell her goodnight, and try to give her a hug in the morning before work. I still think she knows that I am in the "work with me..let's save this" stage and will jump at the opportunity to do so. So, it makes me wonder if I am utilizing Plan A effectively.

CZ,
Yes, you are using PlanA effectively. The point of planA is to meet the needs which she will let you meet. This is so she will feel good about being with you and miss you if she decides to move out. You are creating a good impression. Things that stress her out like meeting your needs or talking about your R or anything should only happen when SHE initiates it. You are giving her a gift of yourself and "luring" her back to your M.

Read SAA and talk to Steve Harley. These will help you stay on target when you get nothing back from your WW. You won't right away and may not ever. But you will know that you did everything in your power to preserve you M and provide a happy loving home form your daughter. You will make yourself into a better man, father and husband. Your WW may not get to enjoy the fruits of your labor, if not that is her loss. PlanA is it's own painful reward for you, kind of like running or lifting weights...no pain no gain. You will be a better person after you put yourself through the ordeal and you will better know how to protect any future R you have whether it be with Mrs CZ or not.

Get educated and get coached to make sure that you get the maximum benefit from your effort.

Good Luck and keep us posted my friend.

During the interim here, I feel like I should be protecting myself legally. And, I'm kind of wondering if the big crack over the head with that knowledge would head her off at the pass. Every weekend is some new shopping spree on here part, and I'm feeling as though I need to be careful before she starts racking up some debt. Anyone here ever do a legal separation?

It depends on what state you live in. In California, you can get a legal separation. You can also get a property settlement here, without getting separated or divorced, just by filling out some paperwork.

Protect your finances and see an attorney. My ex went through all of our savings, his retirement bonus, and retirement savings, and has NOTHING to show for it. Then he came back for more money.

Quick bump & update. W has been "almost" normal the last day or so. Still trying to hide from me, but not quite as much. I have not told her yet that I will not move out of the house...I'm waiting for her to address that topic with me. I have been looking at the emails that she received from the new guy, and as mentioned, it does look as though they have something cooking or planned. Don't know when or where, but it looks like it may be coming soon. Should I attempt to intervene with getting Dr. Harley on the phone? I need to stop this behavior somehow and get her to focus. Plan A is somewhat noticed, but not acknowleged in any way...and I'm not looking for it. Still, seems like she is just determined to get out there and get in the sack with someone. I want to stop that somehow, but without really hard evidence, I feel a little stifled. I do know enough that this OM is thinking about meeting my wife, she's telling him to be paient. have tried to dig up as much as info as possible on him..how can you find out in public records if someone is M? Can I just call him and tell him that I don't need him "counseling" my wife?

Look up his name on zabasearch, if it is there,see if there is also a woman's name at the same address.

You can sometimes check county clerk of court records online...in our county you can read the actual divorce papers. You may also be able to look up their name on the county property appraiser's or assessor's websites....see if there is a co-homeowner.

This needs to be addressed ASAP. It will burst her bubble and the sooner than happens, the better.

Zimm, I would have that talk with her and lay all your cards on the table. Let her know you know she is chasing dudes and ask her to stop. Then, email the guys she is speaking with and tell them she is married, with a 10 yr old DD and that you are going nowhere. That will get the word around amongst her coworkers.


No, Steve Harley is for counseling. It is your responsibility to INTERVENE and ensure that a meeting does not take place. You don't need a counselor to do that, just a small set of nads.


I suspect she is waiting for you to move out, which would explain why she told him to be patient.

ok, where do we stand on the following things:

1. getting the Harley books I recommended and READING THEM?

2. getting an appointment with Steve Harley?

p.s. you shouldn't EVER spend the night out of your own bed. That only serves to widen the gap between you. If anyone moves out of the bedroom, it should be her.