Thanks again for the much needed kick in the butt ML. I beleive I woke up this morning with a different perspective. I'm tired of sitting here in pain waiting for the other shoe to drop and worrying about what she's going to do next. I have spent the last month in utter agony and mental torture, and I'm tired of it. Both of your recommendations will be accomplished today. I also need to take some more steps in my Plan A approach. Other areas need to be improved on for me, such as I need to try to stop waiting until she goes to bed to hide from me, then me hopping on the phone with friends or relatives seeking advice and expressing confusion, disbelief, and wondering what her next steps are. If she thinks that what the single life is going to be like is putting on her fun panties and new bra and driving off to another state to hop in the sack with some guy she barely knows is the reality of divorce, and she needs space to think about what it's going to be like to be alone, then she can take one of her many credit cards and go check into a hotel and "find herslef". I'm sticking around to finish what I started which was to create a loving, healthy home, for myself and my family. I would like her to be a part of that, but that's her decision. It won't be me that decides to pull the plug on a 13 year relationship and put my daughter through the ****** of splitting up our family.

ML...is there any way that I can contact you privately? I had a couple of other things to share with you. I'm not sure how to contact privately through the baords here.

Any advice out there on asking W to participate in counseling. I scheduled an appointment with Jennifer on Sunday evening. Also, after the cat's kind of our of the bag on MB here, is there any way I can change the name of thread before W finds out about MB and sees this entire thread? She'll recognize immediately.

thanks.

Zimm,

You can change your name... Once you go into your settings and change your name to something different, it will change all your old posts name also.

You will need to continue to log in with "Zimm" it will just display the new identity on all your posts.

Is it possible you can say you found the Harley information from one of the books SAA/HNHN, or from just reading the material from this website making no reference to the forum?

Well...tonight was it. I think it's probably done. W and I got into the discussion about the M. This came about after I found my DD sitting in her bedroom in the dark. Enough was enough. I had been Plan A'ing pretty hard all week with staying busy around the house, trying to catch a hug now and then from W. She was obvioulsy uncomfortable with it all. She cites the fact that she feels guilty that I'm trying so hard when there's no hope, but that's another story. Anyway, told her that I didn't know that what she was going to do , but I was finishing what I started, which was to create a loving happy home for my DD and family, and that she was welcome to be a part of that. She says that she hasn't loved me since 10 yrs. ago...we had weren't married at the time, and after dating for a couple years we had briefly separated. She got her own place and I got mine. She told me at the time that we weren't right for each other, but I asked her to give it some more time. Well, more time meant that 1 month later..she was pregnant. And from that point foward, even though she wasn't "in love" with me, she decided that the best thing to do was to provide our DD with the vbest home possible. Says she hasn't been attracted to me at all for the entire time we've been together. Asked me why i thought it was that she never initiated sex or groaned every time it came up...it was because she wanted nothing to do with it. And...she's right about that, she didn't want anything to do with it. Conversation went through all of our various mistakes and rolls played in the entire mess. Said that she told the therapist on Sat. that if there's anybody she should be in love with it should be me because I'm a one of the nicest, most gentle people she knows...but doesn't have that chemistry...like I'm a best friend, but not a lover. Said my habits really bother her...I drink, smoke, have had a habit of going out with friends on Friday nights, etc. The entire time she has sat an done nothing other than take care of everything. So...10 yrs. of not attracted to me, tired of taking care of everything, she's done, she's had it, she just wishes it would all go away. Never going to change how she feels. If she could get in her car and drive away, that's exactly waht she would do. As this process unfolded, as painful as it was, my knowledge of her emails with the other guys came out slowly. Interesting process...she knew that I knew about the one, and dismissed it. But then she started to act like that was it, but I knew it wasn't. I asked her about the "new" guy...she sais that was nothing, and I said, well..he sure seems interested in meeting you. Told me if I thought that had anything to do with what we were going through that I was totally mistaken. It's a diversion, something to keep her mind off of what was happening. I told her if she wanted a D, to go file. Said she would call attorneys tomorrow. But then, I told her what about counseling already knowing that I have j. Harley lined op for Sunday night. She thinks that if she desn't agree to go to counseling that I will just make a D harder on her. That counseling is a form of my blackmailing her. She knows that it won't work...she's felt this way for 10 yrs. there's much more, but this is all I can type for now. My feeling? I think we're done. AS brilliant as the Harley's may be, this seems like it may be a hopeless situation. Lots of anger,lots of issues, and she wants to run away. Wishes it were all over.

Well...after the blowout last night (see above post), receive a voice mail from my W while she was on her way to work this morning. Said.. "hey, wanted to let you know that I'm going to stop screwing around here, think about what you said, and work on the bigger issues."

?????

Did I bust her on the A? Is that what just happened here?

You need to ask her.

But...she's full of doodoo if she says that her 'conversations' and such have nothing to do with your situation. That's standard WS fog-babble.

What she's doing is 're-writing history'. All WS's do this...it's a mental way for them to justify their wayward behavior. It's not something they consciously do...but it's still what they do, nonetheless.

I got the same story from my wife after d-day. "I've not been happy in YEARS!!!" she yelled. I thought about it, and asked her to tell me exactly WHEN the unhappiness started. She couldn't tell me. She insisted it was for a LONG time...at least the last 10 years. I thought about it some more. Couldn't see where she'd been unhappy for anywhere near that long.

The funny thing is...the further she got into NC with OM, the further we got into actual recovery, it was amazing how it went from "I've not been happy for most of our marriage" to "I've not been happy for the last several years" to "I've not been happy for the last couple of years", and finally down to "I've not been happy for the last year or so". Which, I could totally see. She'd not been happy since she quit her job and started staying at home playing online games all day and night.

But...while she was still in the fog...she couldn't possibly see that. All she knew was that she'd not been happy in YEARS!

Tell your wife that you recognize that she's not happy. You can't do anything about the "years" of unhappiness...but you CAN do something about NOW. And about the future.

As far as her not being attracted to you all this time...it may be PARTIALLY true. But people don't stay married for 10 years for no reason. There were good times in there...there were laughs and close moments that BOTH of you enjoyed, there were times when she was intimate with you that she enjoyed too. YOU remember those times...and start GENTLY sharing those memories with her. And let her know how the two of you can start making those same memories again.

It ain't over until it's over, friend. Don't give up right now. She's still there...so now, the trick is to keep up the plan A...carrot AND stick.

yes Zimm.. They talk crap when in the fog...

My WS told me she "Couldn't remember a single good thing in our marriage..she could only remember the bad ones"

She then kept quiet and thought very hard and very long then finally cried and said "I couldn't even bring back a single good memory to help me see where we're going"...

I then asked her, ok what are the bad things you remember.. and she could only point out one or two minor things, saying she "can't recall the rest but I know they're there!"

She kept saying we had an unhappy marriage.. but hello? I was also part of this marriage and I thought we had a loving, close relationship, at least until the A..

Really uncanny tunnel vision, so don't buy it. like Owl said, focus on the NOW and the FUTURE

She has lots of reasons to be unhappy with me. I see that now. And I have told her that I cannot go back and change time. All I can do is move forward here and be the best H I can be. I think she is contending with many anger issues. Some related to me, most probably, but then there are her issues as well. I still feel prety hopeless. I understand that there's a bunch of history rewriting here, but i do buy some of what she's telling me. It's a convincing story. Still...10 years of a farce? Come on.

Agreed Zimm. She's given you some good info tho. She's pointed out direct areas that you can improve on. Stop smoking, stop drinking, stop going out on Friday nights with your friends...you get the picture.

Looks like an opportunity to make some positive changes to me.

No question OWL. I know how I've contributed to the state we're in, and it is an opportunity to move forward in a postive direction. I feel like I really have to be careful here and not push her too hard. I can't tell if that VM this morning was an admission of some sort...kind of like an acknowledgement that "yes, I know now that my head is twisted from this." or if it was just, "ok..i'll put that out of my life so that you can see that it really is you."

UGH!!!! Do you think that the counseling seesion that I've arranged with Jennifer Harley on Sunday is too early here, or just the right timing?

I'm not there, so I can't tell you that for sure. I DO know that when someone is actively involved in an affair, MC is usually a tremendous waste of time and money.

BUT...you're wife doesn't appear to be IN an affair...more like looking for one. Not sure how that factors in.

Wouldn't it be the same kind of thing though? EN's are not being met at home...unhappy. Lots of changes going on for her...and now, Attention form elsewhere. Fantasy. Secrecy. The only thing that hasn't happened is the progression, which I'm sure would have come had it not been brought to a head.

No we don't.

Not all of us.

Okay... in thinking about it a little more carefully... I'd probably agree that the vast majority of WS's do SOME history rewriting. In fact, I'd bet my boots that the vast majority of MARRIED PEOPLE do SOME rewriting of their histories to suit their purposes -- whatever those purposes may be.

The important question is, IMO, to what EXTENT is she re-writing? If her memory is skewed a lot, that's one thing. If it's skewed just a little... so what?... who's memory isn't?

Zimm, here's a snippit from your very first post on this thread, which appears to have been written from YOUR perspective:


Seems to me, in your most recent conversation with her, she just confirmed your own POV about your relationship, and elaborated on it.

I also think the following is a HUGE part of the story...


So it would seem that a big part of the reason she stayed with you was b/c she thought it was the right thing to do for your daughter. (Although I can't quite fiture out... if I have the math right... why she lived with you for 8 years after your daughter was born and then married you just 2 years ago. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> What's up with that?)

Does all this mean you should throw in the towel? IMO, no. Not yet anyway. In large part b/c of something else you wrote in your first post:


But I do think you should be realistic about what you're up against here.

There are some around here who will tell you that it doesn't matter whether your wife was ever madly in love with you or not... that you can build a fantastic, passionate relationship from scratch using the MB methods. But I'm highly skeptical. In part, b/c in all my time here, I've never come across such a person -- someone who claims to have spent 15... 10... even 5 years with a partner they weren't "in love" with, but were then able to cultivate those feelings out of thin air using MB. The ones who "make it", in as far as I can see, are those who really were in love in the beginning... lost those feelings for whatever reason... and were then able to get them BACK. Much different animal, IMO, from someone who rationalized their way into a relationship/marriage... held on for as long as tney could... and finally snapped.

One other thought about the part of your post where you listed some of the good things about your relationship and things you have in common...

Do you think she sees it the same way? My husband probably would have written the same thing that you did shortly after D-day. I would have agreed that we'd had some fun times and good laughs together (just as I've had with many a friend over the years)... but I would NOT have agreed that we share the same goals and philosophies. Maybe back when I first met him, at the age of 22 and then married him at 25. But I changed a lot during the years that we were living seperate lives under the same roof. And these days, I'm hard pressed to find much of anything we see the same way.

--SC

Thanks for the input SC. I think that your points are valid ones, and I won't deny that this is, indeed, an uphill battle. Her feelings, I think, are legitimate. I think that initially, I was a rebound relationship from a bad one she had gotten out of. That part of the relationship lasted a couple years. We separated briefly, but still continued our relationship. I think she was unsure of conintuing at that point. I sked her for another chance..a few months, and I moved back in with her. Within that first month, she was pregnant. Obviously, that meant a whole new ball game for both of us. As our relationship continued, we DID have a lot of great times, and sure, we struggled at times also. I thought that some of the passion was removed from our relationship because after my daughter came, she then became the center of my W's life. I was there, but not as important. As we continued through life...well...life became life. Bills, commitments, jobs, school...the whole ball of wax. I think in much of this time, we were probably both going through the motions to some degree. Yes, the passion was gone, but the good times and friendship was still there. And...there were tender moments and hard moments.I think that she tried to love me, but for a long time just couldn't allow herself to, because by now, all of the LB's were in play...the habits she doesn't like, some of her valid crticisms of me, etc. and over time, she built resentment.

What you have to remember though is that she played an active part in all of this. SHE was the one that was planning for the future, talking about life down the road. And she was the one that never communicated the fact anything was wrong, although, I was supposed to read the clues along the way. This wasn't a cold, loveless realtionship. She may not have been completely, madly in love with me, but there was love there.

I appreciate your insight SC, but I think to some degree there his some history rewriting happening mixed with some factual accounts of our relationship. My opinion remains that I think her new job, her age, adn the attention and fantasy she got wrapped up in with these guys has played a tremendous part on how this developed. Not discounting the past..but, the reality is that it hasn't been that bad for her. I mean, do you relaly think that someone just grins and bears for 10 years because it's the right thing to do? Even for kids? I don't know. One think that she said to me last night was that she told the therapist last Saturday that if there's anyone that she should be in love with, that it's me. But she can't feel that way about me for some reason. I think that's an acknowledgement on her part to some degree that she does see something there.

When i came home tonight I asked her to clarify her voice mail to me this morning. She said that she feels like she needs to think things through..not be so rash and angry and take a look at a different perspective. I told her about the counseling on Sunday with Jennifer, and she was agreeable to that. i also told her that I would pront off some MB material for her to look at so she could understand some basic concepts before we spoke to Jennifer.

It's a long, uphill battle...I have no question of that. i don't know what the ultimate outcome will be. I do know that it was going down the path of D last night, and now, today there's hope.

Zimm!!!


This is fantastic news! See! I think your wife really was internalizing the effects of your Plan-A! Keep it up!!!

I hesitate to write my other thoughts, b/c I don't want to throw cold water on your new-found hope. But for the sake of "keeping it real"... I do want to say...



Yes. I do. In fact, I think if you were able to get a room full of women from our mothers' generation to talk candidly, many of them would tell you they did just that... and for a lot longer than 10 years.

But regardless.. I'm glad to hear she's willing to at least slow down and re-evaluate. And I hope everything goes well during your session on Sunday.

--SC

Thanks SC. I'm hopeful, but I'm realistic as well. I know that the counseling this weekend is not going to be a magic bullet where she suddenly realizes that she's looking at things in an entirely wrong way, and that all the years have just been absolutely wonderful. I'm a realist, and I think if we are going to be able to move forward that it's going to take some time.

Something that I wanted to add to the rewriting history conversation...You have to understand some of the chronolgy of the last month of my life. These event start with an argmuement, followed by a tough weekend, which is then followed by an email exchange where i told her I was upset, to which she responded that she thought maybe we should start thinking about our future and the idea of splitting up. First time I ever heard that! She then shut me out emotionally on that Monday after an arguement about the email exchange. Two days after that is when I found the first flirty emails to the FIRST guy. This was followed by 10 days of cold shoulder and me wondering...no relationship talk...at least not much. During that time she would soften a bit, then get tense again. This all culminates in "the trip" to meet the original email guy, whom she had never met. That goes poorly for her. However, there's Mr. Consoler there who figures, "hey, the other guy isn't interested, but I am." 5 days after that trip, I found the emails form Mr. Consolation where it had escalated from "thanks for the advice" to "be patient...we'll meet soon..or you could just drive in tomorrow." And, she has met this guy in person. So...2 guys, potential meetings, 4 week span. Now..when we had our emotional talk a couple nights ago, she knew that I knew about the first guy. And when that came up in conversation she easily dismissed it as nothing. When i pressed about somebody else, she played it off as "Who would there be...this, that guy, etc., etc." What she didn't know, is that I DID know about the other guy, and when that fact came on the table. Her attitude changed to anger. So..she really was sitting there in a state of denial...trying to play me even as we were having this very emotional discussion about what a farce our M had been the entire time.

Taking all of that into account, while some of the points she is making about our M are valid, you have to understand that this is a person that in the midst of the most serious conversation we've ever had, was still trying to cover something up. What I am saying is that, while some of her points may be valid about the M, the fact that she has engaged in 2, not 1, fantasy email exchanges and tried to arrange meetings on both fronts, allows me to think that there is indeed some history rewriting here. At the very least, her involvement on this other level with these guys has allowed her to continually focus on the negative aspects of our M in a continued effort to justify HER behavior. Without that involvement, she may be able to soften her harsh view of our M right now, take a step back, and see that the reality here is that this really hasn't been 10 yrs of misery and biting the bullet. That there is something else here.

Zimm, this is classic rewriting of history that we see on this forum every day. It is a SYMPTOM of someone who is looking to justify the unjustifiable. Infidels would rather alter reality than accept that what they are doing is bad. Much easier to make you the bad guy.

If the marriage was that bad over 10 years, she most likely would have said or done something. And if she didn't then she is silly and only has herself to blame. But, I have no doubt this is classic FOGBABBBLE THAT we see every day on this forum, so don't let it concern you.


This is where the Harleys can help you. Did you get the books I told you to get?


This is PERFECT, CZ. I think she is scared to leave and is looking for a reason TO STAY. Jennifer Harley will be perfect for her. She can give her HOPE that there can be a happy marriage with you. Get the book Fall in Love, Stay in Love from this website and leave it laying around for her!

Zimm,

Something to think about...I completely agree with everything that Melodylane said. And Mel and I are normally far more inclined to argue with each other than agree!!! No disrespect intended, Mel. /tips hat <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

But when we DO agree...that sure should be telling someone something!!! She's a vet around here, and while we may not agree on somethings, I respect her knowledge and experience here. Give what she's telling you on this some serious thought.

I agree with everything Owl just said! **snort** <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />