hg, you can always just give up, but I see nothing here that makes me think this is hopeless. I have seen far, far worse than this come back from the dead and grow into great marriages. It is not easy, that is for sure, but is certainly possible.

I think that you and your W long ago grew apart and gave up meeting each others needs. That can all change and you can be happy again with alot of work. You just have to carefully and strategically kill this little affair pursuit thing she has going while doing your best to meet her needs at the same time in order to attract her back to the table.

So, don't give up so easily. I know you are new to all this, but there is nothing hopeless here.

I know that, but I just don't see where she's willing to even consider or bend at all. She's steamrolled this thing in a 30 day time frame from a problem to desparately wanting out. I guess my fear at this point has more to do with her upping the ante and actually lashin back at me for her perceived trapped feeling by actually carrying out the PA. I don't know if I would hold up as well as the others here with that knowledge.

Oops, sorry HG. Somehow, on the first read through, I missed your first line.

I'm not sure what you were hoping to gain by getting your MIL involved if your wife doesn't respect her. It can't be undone now, but I do think it illustrates the potential pitfalls of taking cookie-cutter advice from an internet forum and applying to your own situation as if every human relationship were exactly the same.

I know your head must be spinning and your heart is hurting. For the most part though, judging from what you've written here, I have to say that I think you're doing a MASTERFUL job at thinking rationally and interacting with your wife. I also think, as I've said before, that you are doing a great job keeping a balanced view of the situation. Dismissing everything your wife says as "fog speak" (another bit of cookie-cutter advice, btw) isn't going to help. Especially since you acknowledge that a lot of what she's saying now is consistent with her behavior over the last 10 years.

OTOH, as you point out, she does seem to have gone off the deep end since she started her job. It seems pretty obvious that she's "drunk" with all the attention and excitement.

So where does that leave you? And your marriage? I don't know, HG. I wonder if the ol' "180" and "opening the cage door" would make a difference in your particular situation. Have you heard of that approach? Again, I'm not advocating it, necessarily. But it might be worth reading-up on, and deciding for yourself whether it makes any sense for you. In the meantime, I think you should continue your plan-A and keep trying to get her to go to counseling with you She is taking notice of your changes... and self-improvement is always a good thing.. whether or not it eventually saves your marriage.

One other thing I wanted to bring to your attention HG. Your daughter. You wrote:


Do you really think that telling her "not to worry" eased her mind? I'm not beating up on you. I know you're overwhelmed. But I do think you need to be more open and honest with your daugther about what's going on. She knows something is terribly wrong, and she's probably conjuring up all sorts of horrible possibilities in her mind... including ways to blame HERSELF for what's happening. I'm not necessarily suggesting that you should tell her every gorey detail... but an honest overview of what's going on... and sincere reasurrance that she is not to blame is in order, IMO.

Chin up, HG. You're doing much better than you think.

--SC

You are giving up way too fast. It will take much longer than this to attract her back to the table. Please focus on WHAT IS rather than what MIGHT BE. AND RELAX. You have enough on you plate without borrowing more trouble that "might" happen.

WHAT IS is that she is upset that you exposed her plans to her mother. She is rightly embarrassed about it. So when she comes home, tell her you are sure sorry she is upset, but you felt her mother should know her plans too. You had no reason to hide them. Don't argue, fight and most especially, don't try to REASON with a FOGHORN. It is a useless endeavor.

CALM DOWN.

smartcookie, I realize you are a fresh wayward, but exposure is a tried and true method on MB and was very beneficial in this case, as usual. Having "respect" for her mother is an irrelevant standard that you just pulled out of your hat. There is absolutely no reason why he should not have, but of course, you offer up no reasoning behind your opinion as there is none. But rest assured, it was exactly the right thing to do.


Most of what she is saying is EXACTLY FOGSPEAK, particularly her rewriting of history going back 10 years. And Jennifer Chalmers told him to ignore it and focus on HIS PLAN. There is nothing different here than what we hear on this forum every day. Jennifer Chalmers has counseled with him and told him the same thing. Nothing new.

So, I have no idea where you, a WS, get the idea that this advice is "cookie cutter." It most certainly is not.

gh, I am sad to see smartcookie post on your thread, because she is usually here only to defend the waywards. She is a very angry wayward who posts when she smells blood in the water. I think she smells fear and much blood in the water, hence her presence.

HG,

I'm here to help. Nothing less, nothing more. I think MB makes some assumptions that don't apply to every relationship, that's all. I'm not the least bit angry.

Too bad I can't have a differing opinion without being attacked as a blood sucker.

Your call, HG. If my perspective can be of use to you, I'll keep posting. If not, I'll stop. Just say the word.

--SC

And I think you make sweeping assumptions that come out of your own bias rather than a base of knowledge and successful experience. Here he is all shaken up from exposing to his MIL and you, for no good reason, attempt to cause him to doubt himself by making up arbitrary standards. That is not helpful to him.

Sorry for the little sidetrack, hg, but you are doing just fine and did the right thing. Hold the course and be as pleasant and understanding, WITHOUT APOLOGIZING, as possible when she comes home. You will do great, so don't fret! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

common sense: if someone I don't respect starts telling me how to run my life, it has no impact on me whatsoever. Except annoyance.

BTW HG, the reason I was drawn to your thread is that there are some similarities in our situations, so I thought I could offer some insight into your wife's possible perspective. That's my "bias". Just as everyone else on here has a bias. Again, your call.

common sense: when I am doing something WRONG, I want to keep it a secret. When it is EXPOSED, it is no longer SECRET and I feel embarrassed and SQUEEZED when others are watching. Sorry, but it matters not a whit if the exposure target is "respected" or not. That is an entirely arbitrary standard of your own making.

That is not a Marriage Builders standard, but a smartcookie the WS, standard. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> [I think the sign on the door says MB the last I looked <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />]

Smartcookie, exactly how long since your last contact with your OM?

FYI, Melody, I think that Steve Harley agrees more with what smartcookie is saying, than what you are saying.
Steve told me that he does not think it beneficial to expose to anyone and everyone. But only people who your spouse respects.

techie, is that the same Steve Harley who once told a board member to "do everything short of taking out a billboard?" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I agree that it should not be exposed to anyone and everyone, however, Dr. Harley, the FOUNDER of Marriage Builders, recommends exposure to one's parents and children as a rule of thumb. As a rule, a WS respects almost NO ONE when in the fog.

This was written by Dr.Harley:

Hey folks...Whoa! Look...I appreciate the advice everyone has given me here. I think that you are all selfless people trying to help someone that is looking for advice from folks that have been where I'm at now. I understand that everyone has a different perspective, and I also understand that although everyone thinks they have a unique situation, what I have come to learn here is that many of these things DO follow a pattern. I never would have beleived that had I not found this board, but having read the countless threads on here, I do realize that my situation is not unique. I'm sure that although different words are used that the same message gets conveyed. For example, my W continually tells me that she was never in love with me. While that does cause me to reflect on the fact that we have indeed had quite a bit of distance between us over the years that we both have created, I also understand that she is involved in something that has caused her to dwell & focus on every negative aspect of me and our M to justify something that she is covering up. Can she go back to the birth of my DD and say that she wasn't in love then, and she got pregnant, and was subsequently trapped in a R and M that she was just trying to make the best of because we had a kid? Yep. Can I then look at her and ask her why as a responsible adult that wasn't in love with the father of her child she didn't come to me in the past 10 years and approach me with the fact that she wasn't happy? Yep. And isn't it just a little too coincidental that at the moment this all boils over is the exact same moment that she decides to make dates with other men behind my back, hide things form me, and lie to me continually? Yep.

So, I do understand that one may see the advice here is cookie cutter, and may not apply to or work in every situation, I do also see the value in it as I've, if anything, learned a somewhat reasonable approach to this situation that I would not have had prior to this. Trust me, had I not found this site, and you people when I did, I would have been one of the groveling, pleading, whining, "why are you doing this to me", getting drunk & yelling types of folks that would have wihtout a doubt taken this and made it much worse than it already is. I know from the people here that if my M ultimately does not work out, that I will have at least taken every measure that I can to not only save it, but to alo become a better human being at the end of all of it.

Is MB philosophy going to help restore my marriage? I don't know. I hope that's the case. Right now, it's the best shot I have. Am I scared? You bet. I do know though that I will have the dignity that I need fo myself regardless of the outcome.

Thanks to ALL.

Amen, CZ,great post. Lets get back to the business at hand.

How are things going tonight?

So...you saw the light before I could press the submit button. Keep up the hard work, HG.

Things are tense, odd. I asked her about the talk we had lasyt night about agreeing to counselling. She said that if that's the way that I want to play it, then she guesses that she has no choice. She feels in her heart that there will not be a good outcome. I asked her if we can not deal with each other in anger, and she said no, not yet. I asked her what she was angry with...she said several things but she wasn't going to have the same convo. every evening, and she didn't appreciate being blindsided by her mother at work. That was my fault of course. Asked.. So..should I arange for a counselor? Her response, I guess, but I don't really beleive in them. I asked her if we could just deal open and honestly w/o one or the other upping the ante behind the other's back, ie filing for D or a trip to another state. Asked her if she talked w/ OM..she said she left message telling him "that's it..it's done". Do I beleive her? No.

CZ, please stop talking about your fear of divorce TO HER. This is like handing a loaded gun to her and BAITING her to shoot you. If she knows you are so terrified of her filing, she will use it as leverage or as a way to punish or MANIPULATE you. [I won't file if you stop exposing, for example] STOP signalling her that you are afraid of this. She needs to know that you sure don't want a divorce, but are not afraid.

And dont' apologize for her mother's call. There is nothing wrong with being blindsided. That is a consequence of bad behavior. Her mother called because of HER bad, sleazy behavior, and nothing else. I suspect she would have found "issues" with any timing simply because she didn't like what she heard.

Here is something to watch for. Most WS's are very manipulative while in the fog. She is actively looking for grievances to hold against you, so she will take most any event and turn it into a grievance. She HAS to demonize you in order to justify her actions. So...and LISTEN CLOSE HERE....when you apologize or allow her to make you feel guilty, you are handing her ammunition against you. You are helping in your own wrongful indictment by allowing her to manipulate you into feeling guilty. See what I mean?

It does not ENDEAR you to her, but gives her ammunition for an INDICTMENT.

That is why it is not a good idea to apologize for exposing or any other thing that is done to stand up for your marriage.

Oh...I didn't apologize for her mother calling her at all. i'm sorry if that's the way that sounded. No, I just told her that I didn't ask her mother to call her, but her mother made that decision. Her mother called also because my DD is witnessing this entire thing and confides in grandma. So, it pi$$e$ grandma off.

As far as my fear of D, I'm not groveling to her at all. All I was attempting was to tell her that I'm playing honest here and I would appreciate the same. I'm sure that I won't get that. Whih is why I do think that this agreement to counseling will probably be a waste of time utlimately. She won't listen to a thing and probably already has her script prepared. Although, she doesn't know that the counselor will Jennifer who will see right through her BS.

that is probably why Jennifer doesn't want to talk to her! lol

Well...I have to say that I'm in the same boat as Jennifer then. I can barely stand to talk to her. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

No, an interesting thing about my W tonight was the fact that she was blaming my DD for the call from the MIL. I let it go, but went and hugged my DD afterwards and told her that it wasn't her fault. Not trying to curry favor from her, in fact, I have told her multiple times that both her Mom and i love her very much. Still, she's a pretty perceptive kid, and she can't stand my W right now.

Is it fairly common for a WS to not only hit the BS where it hurts, but also in the process alienate everyone around them that have been primary relationships up to this point? Just curious b/c that's something I see happening here.