Thanks JL. I do appreciate the insight. I guess that I am reacting, in part, to the fact that she is SURE that the M is over. I didn't want things to escalate tonight, it got out of my control, and I did F up here. I really do think that my W wants something else, and that her attitude towards me is that I am stonewalling her, blackmialing her, dragging her to counseling, and all she wants is whats she knows, and that is that she wants to be done with this, and get on w/ her life.

You are absolutely correct...tonight was a big time screw up on my part,. I should have been calm & collected, and taken the info. I had, and simply let her know...then walked out. I guess that what prompted me into this was the fact that every single time I think we are communicating, regardless if I agreee with it, that there's always a new twist. Something I didn't know of that fuels a confrontation that makes both of us ugly animals that we normally are not. I feel as though I am trying to communicate in an honest & open fashion, and then BAM!! here's something that makes me go apesh!t. I can't continue to take the new surpirses. I'm getting worn down.

I did apologize to her this morning for the episode last evening as you suggested. Told her that I was having some trust issues, and she responded "so do I". She left for work and stopped so I could at least give her a short hug. Told me she was worried about DD hearing the episode last night because she was acting strange. I talked with DD and she hadn't heard anything, but she knows that mom & I are having problems. Talked with her and she seemed ok.

When I got to work, i sent an email to W stating that I had spoken with DD, that she didn't hear anything, and that she seemed ok. W responded with the following:

"I hope you are right...I will not even engage in that again...it is negative and destructive and only making things worse...so if you need to flip in a loud voice I will not take a chance with her by participating....I did not know lif could get so messed up so quickly but a mess it is and I have no idea where anything is going from here...I have no answers....we are all three lost, confused and everything we know is upside down right now....I will just get up and go to work, try to be pleasant and do my best not to make anything worse."

I responded by agreeing that negativitiy & destruction were unnecessary and that I also agreed that we are all indeed a mess.

Thoughts?

I think it's interesting that she says she "doesn't know where anything is going from here." Perhaps there's still some small part of her that's not quite so sure about wanting to D???

I don't know what she means any longer. I'm sure that it will change by the time she gets home though. That's usually a guarantee these days.

No, I'm pretty sure that she wants a D. I'm just standing in her way. If anything is making her question it, it is more than likely the fear of the unkonwn rather than anything about me. I'd like to think that sometimes my little snippets of truth penetrate her mind and she questions what she's doing completely. I think that it does for a time, been then she gains more resolve from that for whatever reason. She's always been that way, which is why she's difficult to deal with in this situation. Once she's decided something, she usually won't back off of it no matter if she decides along the way that she is indeed wrong.

honestguy, she doesn't know what she wants, it will change from day to day. The goal here is change her mind frm wanting a divorce. What you have to do is STOP reacting to her and stop allowing yourself to be baited into these useless, negative relationship talks. You seem to believe that you can REASON with her, and you can see where that has got you. You can't reason with someone who uses no reason, only warped emotion. She is a fogged out wayward spouse, so it does no good to focus on her ever changing feelings.

I am concerned about your counselor, though. I think it is good, as JL pointed out, that he trying to get you to focus on meeting her needs. That is a good strategy, however, the affair is the biggest problem right now and can't be ignored. That is like ignoring the sinking Titantic [sinking ship=affair] and focusing on the peeling paint in the girls bathroom. The Titantic has to be righted or there will be no girl's bathroom. All the needs meeting in the world will not overcome the destruction of an affair.

That being said, meeting her needs as best you can, can have the effect of attracting her away from the affair.

hg, there is something else I have been thinking about and I am not sure how this can be broached with her. I am really aghast that she does not know any better than to troll for studs in the coworker pool. That is a certain career ender and she is old enough to know better. ["never get your honey in the same you get your money"] Not to mention the fact that she will destroy her reputation.

Do you think she understands that this will ruin her career and her rep? Why would she set out to sacrifice her career like that?

No, you arent. She is free and over 21. She is free to get a divorce whenever she wants. If she wanted one, she would get one.

TALK IS CHEAP, CZ!

I beleive the attraction of what she was involved in is certainly over. I do believe her on that one. I know that you'll tell me that she is lying, but I really don't think that she is. Remember, this was nothing more than a chance meeting, followed by an email fantasy they created. It certianly had the similar affect on her as an affair...I don't question that at all. But, I think that when I raised the stakes on her, she realized that it was a HUGE mistake on her part, and it was easy enough for her to just stop it. She understands that it's a potential career ender for her, as evidenced by the fact that she has been bringing home job listings.

What she doesn't back off from though is the fact that she is absoultely, 100% sure that she doesn't have anything for me. She told me that I can change all I want, there are no needs for me to meet with her...there's no point in trying. She may, very well, go file tomorrow.

I think that what makes me keep spinning is that there's always a fleck out there. You notice that her email back to me was almost, and I do emphasize almost, contrite? As if she were saying, "I don't know how or why this got so ugly, we're all hurt...I won't do anything to harm us" Huh?

Here's an odd twist...she came home and she's super nice. Gave me a giant hug, a real hug, and said "let's play nice. stop being to mean to one another...it isn't worth it."

HG, my wife gave me the "there's nothing you can do to save this" for two years. She could not decide between trying to work things out and giving up. All along, when I told her to go file if that is what she wants, she told me I was acting like a child...We had very bad days and good days. She actually told me and our friends that she wished I would just not come home anymore. I was told that when a woman makes up her mind to go, she will. WRONG !!! At least in our case it was wrong. When I decided to start going out with friends and "have a life" she became interested in where I was going and what I was doing. Said she was concerned about me, as a friend.... Then, she told me she would file and the next day, less than 12 hrs later, changed her mind.
HG, your wife does not know what she wants right now. Listen to what ML is telling you. Hang in there. It is not easy, but you can make it. Like I said before, you have an advantage that I did not have, the people on this board who can help you.

Thanks NTL. This is a total reversal tonight. She is happy, talking to me..normally I might add, with a tone she hasn't spoken to me with in weeks. She's interacting with DD, making plans again for the next couple of weeks out, etc.

I'm not suggesting that this is by any means a breakthrough, but the normalcy feels good.

I've had experiences with her in the past (not as extreme), but have had experiences where I really put the hammer on her verbally, called her bluff, etc. I know that isn't a MB concept, but from past experience with her, sometimes that works. I think I saw another thread where maybe it was Larry that basically told his wife to stop carrying on and get her back into the game of what's important. And that's what I told her in so many words last night. Not saying it's the right way, but it has produced the only couple of break through types of moments I've had over the last 6 weeks..this being one of the. We'll see how long it lasts.

I'm a big fan of Larry's plan. I've seen about as many marriages here recover with his plan as with the Harley's plans, especially when it is the wife who is wayward.

She may also jump over the moon, you just don't know what she "may" do. She may be "absolutely sure" today, but that can change tomorrow. And likely will. She has no way of knowing how she will feel tomorrow. And neither do you.

Feelings change from day to day, they ebb and flow. That is why it is smart to not make any decisions based on FEELINGS, instead you should watch her ACTIONS. All of her talk is just based on the feeling du jour.

What you have to do is be "absolutely sure" that you are doing your best to meet her needs in order attract her back. Y'all have fallen out of love because you stopped being a couple a long time ago. That is why I wanted you to read Fall in Love, Stay in Love by Willard Harley. Have you read that yet?

Also, until she actually DIVORCES you, it is just idle TALK. TALK IS CHEAP. If she wanted to be divorced, she would be getting..............divorced.

Is she usually able to run over you? If so, that may be the reason why she responds to you when you act decisively. There is nothing more disgusting to a mature woman than a wimpy male. It is downright revolting. For me, I do not love a man I cannot respect, and I do not respect a wimpy man. Does she run over you?

Thanks for the responses. No, I wouldn't say that she is able to run over me. We DO have different personality types in that she does like to control, and I'm typically a little more laid back, go with the flow type of person. I think that's probably been one of her issues with me all along. I DO think that she would like for me to take control of everything, which I would be more than happy to do. i guess my perspective on it has been that we were in a partnership, but I think her view has been that she's had to do everything. I was always concious not to control her in any way as her last relationship was with a very controlling type of person.

I have noticed that when we do have these exchanges, that when I am decisive, or I take away her power is usually when I get some kind of response from her.

The reason she resents any decisiveness from you NOW is because she is WAYWARD. When you take a decisive stand you are interfering with her nefarious plot. But that is a GOOD THING.

Yep...interference has proven to be an effective way to piss her off thus far. Here's the last response she gave me yesterday...

Truce.........let's find some solutions ...not make more problems

I would say that a good way for her to enter a truce is by replacing the money that she's hidden, wouldn't you?

Solutions? Meaning please cooperate with a divorce?

I don't know what it means. You're probably correct in your assumption

Tell her the only solution you are interested in is working on your marriage. If she wants a divorce, she is all on her own. THERE IS NOTHING STOPPING HER. She doesn't need your cooperation to get a divorce. She can get one any day. It is notable that she has not filed.

Well, I do think you are correct...She doesn't know what she wants. The money thing I think was a way to take a shot at me. There's a lot of wrestling for control going on.

You may have noticed in one of my earlier posts this sentence out of her email to me yesterday..

"I did not know life could get so messed up so quickly but a mess it is and I have no idea where anything is going from here...I have no answers.......we are all three lost,confused and everything we know if upside down right now...........I will just get up and go to work ,try to be pleasant and do my best not to make anything worse"

She has always had a difficult time in apologizing for anything, and in an odd way, sometimes things like this are about as close as I get with her. Then her big hug last night was very sincere coupled with the "lets play nice" comment.

You are correct...it is notable that she hasn't taken action.