He is yanking your chain and loving it because that is what WS' do.

What's your plan? Want one? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

L.

Yes, I want a plan, but I am not ready for plan B now... I do not know why.

I was just kind of going along, doing my own thing, and then I allowed myself to get dragged into a conversation with him about his wayward lifestyle, and him trying to convince ME to start dating! I am not about to let go of my morals just because HE did.

Why do WS's do that? What is the point of it? Why should I 'prove' to him that I am not having an e-mail relationship? I do not owe him anything at this point. And it annoys me because I normally am completely open and honest about everything, so when I am NOT open about everything, then it looks like I am hiding things, and it just adds more justification to his whole wayward state.

Orchid- is there a different plan, besides plan b? I was trying the 180, and it seemed to bother him that I seemed to be moving on, and I know the whole conversation was to suck me back into bewilderment, but I am not going to let that happen. I am going to stay the same... moving on with my life, without finding a new person. Just being the best person that I can to my family, my friends, and my job. That is all that I can do for now.

Is is whole point to 'hook' me into dangling there, waiting for him, even though he says that he does not want to work things out, or is he trying to get me to file for a D? What do you think?

Sadmo

Who can fathom the motivations or thought process of a Wayward?

Sadmo, don;t worry about what he wants, worry about what YOU want. What is your strategic vision for your family's future? If you decide what you want, then the Harleys or maybe the forum can help you make a plan. I would go with the Harleys though and use the forum to vent and hone your ideas.

But you already know the firt bit of advice...DON'T GET SUCKED INTO THE WAYWARD WORLD. Stay here with us and your kids.

Well... I fear I may have been sucked in a little... or was I?
When he first left (after I told him to) I was a hysterical, begging pleading woman for at least 2 months. I really wish that I had actually found this site earlier....

I kind of feel like I REALLY LB's big time with how I was... I was not a desirable person to be around. I started to come back to my senses about 5 months ago, and that is when I discovered this site. There is such great advice, and it is helpful to run things past other peoplt that have experience in this area!

Well, the WH called today and asked if we were still on for dinner tonight. I said sure. I took an antianxiety med, just in case, and he came over. It went well. He seemed happy to be here, happy to talk to me, happy to spend time with the kids, and the pets.

When he left he said that he would bring me a coffee in the morning (he is watching the kids while I work). This SEEMS like a good sign to me, but how would I know if he is slowly offering me nuggets, to see how I would react (I will not lie, I had an amazing temper before he moved out) or is he just 'fence sitting'? He is not trying to make the moves on me or anything.

He is NOT a man of many words when it comes to expressing his feelings. Would I be silly to expect him to now? I don't know. I am feeling cautiously optimistic.... or should I???

There is no logic to the antics of a WS. So don't waste precious energy trying to figure him out. Instead work on a plan for YOUR personal recovery. Plan B works well with this direction.

What can help you?

1. Get your finances in order
2. Learn your rights
3. Get your support group on the ready
4. Get IC for yourself and your children.
5. For you, call Steve.
6. Identify your personal boundaries
7. Expect the WS t/b an Azz.... you won't be disappointed. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
8. Learn to reverse babble and other tools to help you cope.

Know that moving forward is healthy for you and your family. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

It is also deadly to the WS. That's a good thing! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

L.

Orchid-
My finances are in order, I know my rights, I have my support group, I have had IC, I do not know that I can afford to call Steve, I am not sure what personal boundaries I SHOULD have, when my WS does NOT act like an AZZ, I am so pleasantly surprised that it THROWS ME (I am weak!), I am going to read your reverse babble and try that some....

I have been moving forward, and that is why I think that the WS all of a sudden is being nice (I know, I know I should not think what HE is thinking....) I got a cat, which has made my DD SO HAPPY, it almost makes my face split in half when I see her with him (from smiling :-)) I am NOT a cat person, but this cat SPOKE to me. Not really... but I felt like he should be with us, and I liked him. He so far is a great cat, great with the kids, and dogs. I am happy I got him. That actually seemed to upset the WH. That I got a cat. Almost like, "huh? She made a decision to get a cat, without even TALKING to me about it????"

I actually have been doing really well, I do have setbacks every now and again, but me and my girls are doing good. And, I actually think that that is bothering him too.... that I AM able to be ok....

I just wish that I knew if there was a chance in heck that we could work things out, or if he REALLY does not want to ever be back with me... He started all of the 'fog' talk (We never were happy, This M was doomed, You do not love me) When I am 100% sure that there was no one else.

Sometimes I look at him and think that I do not even recognize him anymore. It is weird. Sometimes I think that I am a fool for even trying still. Sometimes I think that I should just file for a D, and move on.

I get so confused every once in a while. It is almost sad. This actually will be the last holiday that comes and goes in the year, that we will not be together. And it depresses me a little. A WHOLE YEAR. A whole flipping year has passed, and we are no closer to anything than we were. He is single, and free, I am responsible Sadmo. He has not been wavering from his stance, and I am still sitting duck- 'if you want to come back, you can...." Not that I even say that anymore, I am sure that he just KNOWS it...

I don't know. I am just a little bummed. I really did not want to be moving forward, but I am, and that actually makes me sad too. That I am moving on, it is an end to the era.

Thanks for the advice....
Sadmo

Well, today I got a long rambling e-mail for my WH's sister. In it she basically says that she is sorry that I have had to go through all of this, but she thinks that her brother is just not 'meant for marriage'. She went on to tell me that she thinks that he is too selfish, and that he does not think long term ever, and he just probably thought, "hey, I will get married, and have kids' and he did not think any longer than that. She went on to say that she thinks he is an a** and if I need anything from her to call.

This kind of has me wondering... is it actually possible that he is telling me the truth when he says that he just does not want to be married? Does it have to be something else than that? It is not like he is saying anything other than that, if I ever asked him. And if he really does not want the responsibilities of marriage, is there any point in 'hanging on' to anything with us? Or hoping? Are there people out there that just realize 'hey, I do not want to be married anymore" and they move on to a single lifestyle, and that is REALLY what they want?Or is this just a midlife 'phase'? Just curious what others thought.....

Yesterday I got a call from my work in the middle of the night, they were robbed at gunpoint. I am the manager, so I had to go in to take care of everything. I was very upset that my poor employees had to go through that experience. I called up my WH and was crying, and I told him that I needed him to come to the house to watch the kids so I could get to work. It was the middle of the night. To my surprise he said, "Whatever you need, I will be there!" He came over right away. He hugged me, and told me to be careful, and he kissed me. He had to get someone to watch the girls so he could go to work, and he called me to see how I was doing. I ended up being at work for 8 hours.

After work, my dad called me and asked me to go to my grandfathers house, he was giving the lady that takes care of him a hard time, and he needed me to help calm him down. I went there, and stayed there for a few hours. My poor grandpa is just not himself, and it is so sad to see him like this...

My H called me to let me know that he would take the kids for the evening so that I could get some sleep. He came over to get them, and I was emotionally drained. He hugged me and I started to cry, and he just held me. He told me whatever he needed to do to help me he would. Which is surprising, since he is not always so nice. I ended up having to work nights at work, and I called him and told him that I had to work, and he asked if he could just stay at my house with the kids, and he arranged for a sitter so that I could sleep during the day. He was so nice.

I took a nap, and in the evening, he came back with the kids, and he brought me a coffee for before work (he used to do that when I would get called in- make me coffee, or get me one). And it just made it so bittersweet. He helped to get the kids ready for bed. Then he said that he was going to go to bed, and he asked if he could sleep in my bed. I told him that was ok with me.

He went to bed, and I went in the room, and I laid down next to him, and he put his arm around me and told me that he knew that I had been through a lot. He was rubbing my hair in a nice way. Not being sexual or anything. We just laid there, and he was looking at me. I told him thanks for everything that he did, it was so nice. He told me not to worry about it, whatever he could do. We were just looking at each other, and then one thing led to another and we had S. He held me afterwards, and was just hugging me. I had to get to work, and then he said, "I hope that we just did not complicate things." I asked what he meant, and he said, "I don't know...."

I went to work, and in the morning, he hugged me goodbye and told me that he would call to check on me later on tonight.

Is this good, how should I be with him? Should I just act like it never happened?

This was the old H, the one that I used to love so much... It made me almost sad to see the old H again. He is still there, just deep in there...

So he calls, VERY brief conversation. Asked about the kids, about how I was, said he was tired.
I normally would have asked him what was up, I did not.

I heard from one of his friends today that my WH is not seeing other person at all, in fact it really was not much of anything. He said that my WH seems depressed lately.

I can only assume that the consequences of his actions are hitting home. And it seems that my WH is really happy when he is here, at my house, with the kids, the dogs, and even me.

I was hoping that today he would not have been so short with me, and that he would talk more to me like he did yesterday. I guess that I was disappointed. But I did not act disappointed, I just took it like it was no big deal.

Tomorrow he is coming to get the kids, and he is going to spend the weekend with his brother, and his wife and kids. This actually makes me happy that he is doing a FAMILY thing, and not a playdate thing. Not that I told him that.

So should I just act like nothing took place between us yesterday, and act cool, calm, and collected like I have been doing with him (except for yesterday, but that was a lot of unrelated drama).

I know that in the past he would express that whenever a 'good' moment with us would happen, I would immediately delve into R talk with him, which made him not want to talk to me then. I have not talked about our R, except when he has brought it up.

A WS is still a WS if his/her primary convo is about them. As long as they stay in this mode, it is better for the BS and family to move forward w/o the WS in tow.

Step away and let him come find you. He needs to make the greater effort.

Part of the beauty of the plans....it doesn't require as much work as many BS might think. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

take care,
L.

Sadmo,

How are you doing? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

L.

Thanks for asking...
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am doing OK. I am confused about WH, but what is new?

My grandfather was in the hospital yesterday, and it was determined that he had had several mini-strokes. I am close to my grandfather, and he only recognized me for a half a minute. It is so hard to see him slip away... We are going to have to put him in a nursing home. It hit me really hard after I left the hospital. My grandfather is a wonderful man, the sweetest, most loving person in the world, and he is having to go through all of this. I got really down.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

My H had picked up the girls to take them for the weekend, and he hugged me before he left and said that if I needed him at all to call. I called him. I was a mess, crying about my grandfather, and how sad it was. My WH was so nice. I apologized for calling him in such a state, and he said, "this is your grandfather! I understand! If you ever need to call me, call me! I want you to call me!" He calmed me down, we laughed about my G.P. and I felt a lot better. He called me today to ask how I was doing, and to let me talk to the girls. He had pretty much curtailed his 'playdates' and then my DD told me that they were going to see her friend. My blood ran cold. I really had hoped that his little 'friendship' with these women was over... and I was wrong.

Then came the down (yesterday)... my girlfriends invited me out to get my mind off of things, and on my way out, I got SO SAD. I wanted to be with my H. I miss him. (not the WH, the H). Well I went out, and me and my friends had a lot of fun, and I asked if they had heard from one of our other friends (a guy) he makes me laugh. They said no, so we called him and invited him, and he came there. He is just a funny guy. So we were all talking, and he said, "so did you file for the D yet?" I told him no... and he said, "look, what are you waiting for? He is a guy. Do you think that he is really sitting at his house night after night alone? If you asked him RIGHT NOW to come back home what would he say?" I said, "He would say no." And my friend said, "I am sorry, but I am a man, and the only way that I would say no is if I really meant no. You seem ok with not being with him, get a D, and start your life with a new person."

This conversation made me feel HORRIBLE. ALL of my friends were just looking at me, and then they ALL agreed with him. My friends H agreed with him. Then I get the , "You are a fun, wonderful, person" speech.

So today I woke up feeling bad about everything. My grandfather especially.
Aren't you glad you asked?
Thanks, it made me feel good that you did. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sadmo,

I am still glad I asked. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

How's your grandfather?

It is good you can differentiate between the WS and H. Make that your priority before you engage in convo with him. I used to ask that question when he came to the house or called on the phone....I would ask:

WS: Hello, can I come in?

Orchid: Well that depends, are you in the WS mode or going to act like my H should? Remember the WS is NOT welcomed in this house. When the WS was here before, things broke and people got hurt (did not elaborate just made a statement).

H: I understand...., today I am your H and my son's father.

Orchid: Please come in.

NOTE: The minute he started acting up, I showed him the door. This took a while but it worked.

********************

WS(called my cell):

Orchid: Hello?

WS: I need to talk with you. I need you to.....

Orchid: Hello?

WS: Hello Orchid....I need to talk to you....I need you to...

Orchid: Who is this?

WS: You know who it is.

Orchid: No I am not sure, please identify yourself.

WS: It's me.

Orchid: It's me the WS or my H. My H would reveal his identity and NOT place name games with me. Now WHO are you?

Lots of huffing on the other end. I refused to continue the convos and a few times even hung up so he had to call back. Eventually I got:

H: Your H. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I know this sounds crazy but these are my experiences. It was very draining but no more than having to endure the WS verbal abuse.

He learned to respect what I could control.

L.

Orchid-
good advice.
Unfortunately, I am feeling a bit sad about my grandfather. He was so family orientated, and he always talked about LOVE, and how everyone should love each other.

So... (I am am sure you see where this is going.....) The H dropped the kids off tonight, he is sick. I made him a cup of tea, and he asked me how my weekend was. He asked me specifics. I tried to be evasive, he asked more details. So I asked him what he did. He told me (he had the kids, nothing scandalous). We were talking, and all I kept thinking about was the conversation with my one friend this weekend, about how I am a fool for waiting around.

So I reach out, and put my hand on his arm, and ask him how he has been. He tells me good. I then, like a drama mama, ask him to give us a chance, and I ramble on about my grandfather, and this and that. He just looks at me and says, "No, I do not want that." I ask him why. He says, "I am happy now not answering to anyone. I am not meant to be married". I ask him what that means. He said, "I wanted to be married, but then once you became a nagging, critical person all of the time, I NEVER (he stressed NEVER) want to be married again." I just looked at him, and my eyes welled up with tears. There came the torrents. He tried to hug me, telling me he knows that I am going through a lot. I just pulled away.

He said that he was going to leave, and I said, of course, through tears. He stopped and said, "you know, I loved you dearly, and I NEVER, EVER want to be hurt by someone again." I asked him how HE was hurt. He told me that he was not going to go into it. I told him that I was sorry I hurt him, but he did not tell me I was hurting him. He sighed and said, "I know, I am sorry for that. I should have." So he goes to leave, and he looks back at me. I said, "you say that you do not want to be around a nag, and all of that, and I have not been nagging you."

He said, " and that is because I do not live here. It took me not living here to get that. I am not going to make that mistake again. I am happy now, I am independent, I do not have to answer to anyone. I am sorry for hurting you, but I am not marriage material. In order to be marriage material, you have to care if you are affecting someone, and I do not care. All I care about is my girls. I do not care how people think of me."

So I say, "so I am confused. Are you AFRAID of being hurt, and opening yourself up, or is it that you want to be this way?" He says, "I do not want to ever be that important to anyone again." I say, "When you are married, you SHOULD be important to your spouse."

So he says, "I am sorry, I am not going to talk about this. I have thought a lot about it, and I am happy now on my own. I can do my own thing, I do not have to answer to someone."

So I tearfully say, "Fine. Why don't we just get a D then?" He says, "I told you that I can stay like this forever." I said, "I can't. What is stopping you?" He says,"I will be honest: money. I do not have the money to file for a D right now." So I say, "so that is it, money?" And he says, "Yes." So I say, "that is so cruel. You want to get a D, and the only thing stopping you is money. You can charge it you know." He says that he is not going to charge a D.

He then wrapped his arms around me, and I started to cry, and he told me, "let's not have this conversation today, you are so emotional about everything". So I, in drama-mama fashion say, "Of course I am emotional!" He hugs me, and kisses my cheek and says, "goodnight."

I have been doing so good, I do not know what came over me! I feel so silly. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />

Your wayward husband is cake eating.

I'm a huge proponent of the 180s. DO THEM. It absolutely saved my marriage and made MY life better. I'm a much stronger, happier person four years after finding out about my FWH's affairs.

Ok, so you had a weak moment and you gave your wayward husband exactly what he was looking for-- you a crying mess begging him to stay. All those questions he's been asking? He's fishing for information on 'your new man'. He can't stand the fact that you would be moving forward and now that you've fed his ego tonight, please don't be surprised if he cools towards you once again.

He is playing games right now... please understand that. You can either be a pawn in his game or be a major player in yours.

Cut off communication with him beyond child visitation. If he asks personal questions or tries to drag you into casual conversation, absolutely ignore it and end the conversation with him. Continue to spend time on yourself and BE SEEN out with your friends.

Make him wonder. Drive him nuts not knowing what you are up to. He has lost the right to know.

I promise you, if you do the 180s and cut him out it will drive him up the wall. And what better thing can a BS do than stir up their WS? Oh you WH definately cares, otherwise he wouldn't be fishing and ingratiating himself into your home.

Do the 180s.

mojodiva-
That sounds GREAT. But, how do I go from basically being a receptive kind of person to not being one? I have always never ignored someone if they are talking to me, I am not too busy... it would be so out of character for me. So that would be good then?

I have the 180 plan, sent by Mulan, and I was kind of (I will say kind of...) following it. Do you have a very detailed plan that I could read. It seems like it would be the best advice for me at this time.

I also struggle with NOT being totally honest, and just telling him everything. It is just in my nature to be honest, and not have 'secrets'. Do you know what I mean?

Thanks!
Sadmo

I know exactly what you mean. However, in this instance, your openness is losing you some ground.

If an enemy is invading your country, do you give him details about the local goings on and the lay of the land? Do you tell the enemy things that would make you and your countrymen vulnerable to attack?

Forgive the dramatic metaphor, but right now your WH is an enemy to your marriage & the welfare of the children. You cannot trust him with *your* emotional well being because right now, as he disticntly told you, he does not care. He has revealed himself as an enemy by telling you that he would gladly let this go on forever. He has sex with you and then soon afterwards tells you he is very happy not to have to deal with you. That money is the *only* thing standing between him and his freedom.

I want you to look at yourself in the mirror and tell yourself that it is *perfectly fine* to not divulge things to your WH. Has he honestly earned the right to know your innermost thoughts and feelings? Has he earned the right to gloat over the fact that his wife pines away for him while he is happy to be without her? Tell yourself that he has told you exactly what he wants (just reread your post) and now *you are going to give it to him*.

He doesn't want a wife? Then you stop fulfilling the role of one. This means he receives no special attention-- in fact I'm willing to bet he'd freak if you acted slightly annoyed to even have to speak to him for a couple of minutes. No more making him food or drinks. No more allowing him into YOUR home. No more hugs, kisses, or excuses for intimacy he has not earned.

This doesn't mean you can't be civil. In fact, you must. But in my experience, acting slightly distracted or rushed to get off the phone with them, well, it does wonders.

You need to give yourself permission to not be the loving and adoring wife he has come to take for granted. You need to know that you do not OWE him your openness. You are not going to have secrets, you are going to have privacy. There is a differance. You tell your friends private things and your WH is not your friend. Don't treat him like one.

There was a great thread written by a lady named Karen about her great 180 & plan B she did... I will look for it tomorrow if I can find the time, or possibly someone else may be able to provide it for you. Its great reading and really is inspiring.

I've been up with a sick toddler, so I may be rambling a bit. I will check in with you tomorrow. The ladies here have been giving you great advice, I hope they can help more tomorrow, too.

Sadmo,

Mojodiva's response is perfect. Read it again and see her wisdom.

She has even provided a plan of action that will help you move forward while walloping a punch through the fog to the WS.

It is ok to want the WS to fail. The Ws' failure can mean your H's success.

take care,
L.

Mojodiva-
You make PERFECT sense (even though you were up with a toddler, I know how that is....)

You make excellent points. I just for whatever reason struggle with not being myself. I will take your advice, and if you could sometime find that thread (or anyone else!) I would greatly appreciate it!

And how CRAZY is it that I DO still act like his W, when he has told me repeatedly that he DOES not want me as his W???? That has not really been registering that he is telling me that and telling me that, and I STILL am acting like it.:o

Thanks for the advice.

I am going to see my Grandfather today, he is doing a little better, he is more lucid, so that is good.

And Orchid, thanks, as always! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Sadmo