Glad your back Mom. When you visit my thread couldja say hi to mrs rock for me. I try to encourage her to hang around here. I'm glad you enjoyed your little break. Did you see anything good at the movies?

Rock,

I've already posted to her! I was glad to see her. It's good for her to be here. I gave her my email so she can talk to me anytime. I think it's helpful to us both.

I saw Zodiac. I've always been interested in true crime. It was long, but I liked it. People who are not interested in true crime probably would think it's a bit tedious though (they went over all of the evidence, etc.).

It was just nice to turn off the brain for a while.

Thanks Mom. I appreciate it. As far as the movie goes, I'm sure my wife would love it. She always watches all those true crime shows. I wanted to see Premonition.
We really need to get rid of the kids some night and get out together more. We hardly ever do that. We're supposed to do 15 hours a week?

Tell me!

I don't know how either. We want to see Premonition too! And that movie with Jim Carrey, not a comedy though, "23" I think? I think he kinda goes nuts. Comedians play good psychos for some reason I've noticed (like Robin Williams).

MoM,

Been reading along and nodding as you get great advice from Pep and others. I now know why Pep started her other threading asking men about how they handle things.

You said something a few pages back that stuck with me and I wanted to address with you.


No sufficient restitution???? Oh! yes there is and that is where everyone is getting on you. Perhaps a more direct approach is required. In the recent posts to this thread you have become aware that your H still has issues with your A. Actually, what he has is issues with himself and how he sees himself, very normal really.

You remaining in the guilt phase and not recovering is a very selfish act really. Hate to be blunt, but you are focused on yourself more than on your H or family. How do you change the focus? You get a plan. You forgive yourself, and you start to really focus on your H and family. Your JOB is to get this marriage and this family back on track, and rebuild this marriage into something better than it was. You cannot do that contemplating your navel and emotionally beating yourself up.

Restitution comes from remorse not guilt. Restitution requires action and that means you have to become happier with yourself. Your H already told you he does not need any more "I'm sorries". He needs a happy W. He needs his best friend. He needs something he has never had, but needs now. (and that is to open up and tell you his feelings, very very hard to do, even with someone you trust).

If the truth be known, what is really bothering him now has more to do with how he sees himself, than how he sees you. But, as Pep pointed out who can he turn to. If you are still hurting, beating yourself up, he KNOWS he cannot turn to you, and frankly he has told you that in many ways. He knows he cannot lean on someone who is hurting themselves, especially if he loves them, as he does you.

If you want to make restitution, forgive yourself, and become someone you H could lean on, trust, speak with, and know that they are strong enough to handle some of his pain.

I don't even know if this book is still in print. I ran across it on a trip years ago. The title struck me as I am a male. It was entitled "Men made easy" by an author of the last name of "Oh". If memory serves me correctly. It is sort of a 12 step approach to dealing with men. Sort of simplified, but actually more accurate than I care to admit.

Find it if you can. It addresses communications, and how to get your H how to begin to discuss his feelings, etc. It is short and simple, I think I read it in an hour.

Mom, you need to understand, part of healing this marriage is forgiving yourself. Then you can help your H heal. He has forgiven you, he has remained with you. He loves you. Isn't it time to trust your H and realize his forgiveness of you was NOT a mistake. He knew what he was doing, what was in his heart and YOURS.

You see in my mind your failure to forgive yourself, is really a DJ of your H and yes of your spiritual teaching as well. Your H knows he wants you in his life. His real problem right now is whether he is good enough for you. He has doubts and your lack of forgiveness of yourself, feeds those doubts.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

yeah, what he said

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Pep

PHHLLLLTTTTPPP!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

You are right.


Sometimes I'm too busy feeling hurt, guilt or whatever to realize that my focus should be on him.

Mom says to self: "Quit making it all about you, would'ya?"

ok better.


I agree that this has to do with how he sees himself, after talking to him about it. What I take issue with is him feeling like he can't talk to me. I don't think that's the problem. I've been extremely open, no judgments, no criticism, no invalidation...anytime he mentions any of his feelings regarding not having dignity. Maybe it's just hard because it's hard. Maybe he doesn't want to deal with it and hopes it goes away. He really doesn't know how I've been struggling with self forgiveness. That's yet another thing I don't need to put on him.


I don't think it was a mistake, I'm afraid he does based on what he said. But now, I don't think he feels that way because he doesn't want to be married, he feels that way because he felt he lost his dignity. I realize how important that is. Is there anything I can do to help him regain that?


I get that.


Thanks, JL

[color:"green"]when you say "put on him" ... you are making an error

all you need to do is share with him ~~~> YOUR struggle <~~~ and ask him for suggestions/support/comments ... or a hug

it will be a VOTE OF CONFIDENCE in HIM ~as a husband ~ when you do this

I know from which I speak

Mr Pep recently criticized me for NOT sharing some of my personal problems with him ... he said "I want to know what is going on with you."

I stupidly said "I don't want to burden you." (which is a lie, my problem is embarrasing to me and THAT is why I keep it to myself)

Mr Pep said "Your burdens are my concern too."

*sigh*

Pep [/color]

Mom,

You said
It is hard because it is hard. But, consider your H is now a very sensitized man. He is constantly reading you to see where you are. If you are struggling with forgiveness, he will sense the problem if not the details. He may not feel comfortable laying on you his issues because of his sense of your issues, PLUS as you point out he is probably like a lot of us guys and has a hard time talking about his feelings of weakness and failing. It makes us feel vulnerable, and he is already vulnerable.

As you feel better about yourself, and as you continue to be willing to listen to him, and make him comfortable talking to you, he will open up...some. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />


Mom, if you cannot forgive yourself, then essentially you feel it is a mistake for him to have forgiven you. He is not being easier on you, he is seeing you more clearly than you are. Trust him to see you as he needs to and he sees you as his W. Hence his ability to forgive you. If you trust him, forgive yourself. You don't need to punish yourself if he does not feel the need to punish you.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

In an ideal world this would be true. In the world of Mr and Mrs Mom, it doesn't always work that way. Although I myself, have said that to him many times (your problems are my problems)...he has a way of invalidating ("lighten up"..."you've got no reason to feel that way"..."no more drama" etc.). Sometimes he comes through but a lot of times not and sometimes it's safer to just keep it to myself. I've tried till I'm blue to explain that I just want to be listened to, but he doesn't want to hear about anything that he can't "fix." Most of the time, it ain't something he can just go fix. I can try, but this is a big need for me (being heard and validated) and causes a lot of problems when I need it but don't get it.

It wouldn't hurt for me to learn to rely more on myself irregardless (which isn't a word, but I use it anyway, so there!).

I could get away with just saying I need a hug and leaving it at that...that seems to be safe.

recovery means changing things that did not work in the pre-adultery marriage

taking chances

throwing away old patterns that failed

Pep

OK, well here you go Pep...

DH has been making me drinks (of the adult variety) from recipes off the 'net tonight.

I hardly EVER drink.

So right now, I'm feeling good and open for anything.

I'm throwing those old patterns right out the window!!!

Darn!

Should've opened it first!

LOL, Pep...

Thank you so much for all your help, advice and support. My marriage would not be where it is now without you and the rest of the "cast."

If you've never had a drink called sex with the captain, I highly recommend it btw...

I do need to take chances and break out of those old expectations...give him a chance...if I don't change nothing, nothing will change.

ok, Pep, I will try...

[b] [color:"green"]BWHAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
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*thud* [/color]

Did you guys hear something?

What was that sound? Was that Pep?

Pep, you okay???

LOL!

Mom,

It sounds to me as if Pep has passed....out. Got to watch that girl Mom.

I do hope you realize your H making drinks for you, is probably giving him a lot of enjoyment. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Mom, when you get back tomorrow, let one old "problem fixer" offer you some advice. OK?

You said
I think he is trying to tell you that he has forgiven you, and really enjoys you more when you are smiling and NOT down on yourself. What do you think? Oh! and most of us guys can do without much drama. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />



Here is I think what Pep is telling you in the way of trying new things. You know many years ago when I first started to travel to Wash D.C. alot, I was given some advice. The gentleman in question explained to me that I should NEVER ask a question where the simple answer was NO.

Now you may be wondering what I am talking about with regard to your situation. You said he is a "fixer" and some of your issues cannot be easily fixed. Right?

Well girl this is where you start to do things differently. You need to see your issues as things that CAN be fixed, and frankly if they cannot be fixed they are no longer issues.

I have a statement I give myself to hold my frustration down. People only have problems for so long, then they either fix them, or they just walk away from them. They will not tolerate real problems for very long if they have ANY control, and if they don't, it is no longer a problem, it is a fact of life.

Mom, your problems come in several colors: fixable, walk away from, or facts of life. Talk to your H about the fixable ones, let him offer ideas, thoughts, suggestions, and don't shot them down. Ask him for solutions, work arounds, etc. and then discuss them each.

You will be amazed at some things. One, you will often start to see the problem in a new light. Two, you will recognize that there is a solution or that you already know how to handle it. Three, you will begin to see that you have support from him.

If you want to talk to him about deep things. Sit him down next to you, take his hand, and "tell him you would like some advice on something." Then, start with an "I feel" statements that don't bring his defenses up. And then so what can WE do to come up with some ideas? Not necessarily solutions, but ideas that might work. Don't evaluate any of them, keep asking "Ok got any other ideas?" "What would you think if..."

In short, truly make it a problem solving exercise but collecting ideas, solutions, possible means of addressing, and NOT evaluating them at first. Once you two have brainstormed, then list the pro's and con's. Then, a day or week later after some thought, discuss good candidates, or perhaps NEW ways of looking at this.

My point!!! He will be engaged. It will feed his problem solving, AND he will start to really engage, because your feelings are not attacking him even indirectly, they are drawing him in.

After every session, thank him, kiss him, and smile. You will be amazed at what can happen Mom. You really will. If you want him on your terms you have to meet him on his terms. It is part of the giver/taker aspect of humans.

Please think about this. Now go wake Pep up. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

God Bless,

JL

Hi Mom,

i started reading your thread yesterday. i seem to struggle with self-forgiveness. i'm sure JL has said all the same stuff to me already but it sure is good reading it again. It might finally be clicking for me.

seems like i've been struggling with this for so long that the concept of just being done with it seems foreign. but i may be at the point of doing just that. finally.

i started reading a book called In the grip of grace. It was recommended to me by another FWW.

So I just thought I would say Hi and pass on the title of the book too.

FL

and HI JL and Pep (when you un-pass out)

Pep! Pep! Wake Up! *slaps Pep's face, but in a nice way*

Ok, here come the smelling salts....

I do realize that. When he asked if I wanted to try some, I almost said no, but checked myself. I could tell he wanted to do that, so...I had a "buttery nipple" shot (BLECH!!). He got quite a kick out of my expressions. I know he enjoyed it, he told me. Gotta let him have his fun.


Yes I get that. It takes a while to sink in. I'm a thinker and ruminator and I have to accept that he's not. In a lot of ways I do see that I need to lighten up. I just get so defensive when he says that to me when I think I'm doing the right thing. I think we just went through a phase. We were doing very well, not much drama at all, then I had the lack of forgiveness problem, then his dignity issue and I tried to fix it all in one day. I've got to let him come to me in his own time and just enjoy today. I'll try harder, I promise. Thank goodness you guys are here to keep me in line.


Yep, that's been a problem for me, I have a bad habit of ruminating over things that don't have a solution. Gotta work on that.


a distinction I need to learn to make, ok...


This sounds like a great new way to approach it. I will try it.


Thanks JL