[color:"red"] OK

not YOU in particular, but everyone in general [/color]

....

[color:"blue"] becoming defensive is a clue that someone is touching an emotional button [/color]

[color:"green"]pay attention to your own defensive reactions ... usually, mine happen when I am alarmingly holding onto something I need to let go of !!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> [/color]

thanks.
i needed to hear that.

now.....any advice on how to let goooo of it??

Hi FL,

I have read some of one of your threads but didn't get all the way through it. I'll get back to it because I'm very interested in your story and how things with your dad related to it all. Pretty heavy stuff.

I would like to post that book in the book recommendations thread if you don't mind...

You reminded me of another book, What's So Amazing About Grace by Yancey that I read quite a few years back. It was wonderful.

Thanks so much for posting here. I'm glad to hear that you may finally be at peace with yourself. You have come a long way and I have been thinking about you since reading part of your story. Let's keep in touch, okay?

Take Care,

Mom

ask yourself:

What am I defending?

Pep

Ah,this was the thread i was looking for.....
what am i defending?
I am having a difficult time pinpointing it but think it has something to do w/ respect...
i want to have a say....I want to be taken seriously....i KNOW what i want...don't want to be discounted because it is different than what my H wants.
I don't want to be discounted becuse i base much of my decisions on feel and intuition and not solid facts.

you could use both yanno !

LOL

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Pep

yes, i do know...and i do....i use facts and opinions and my heart.....but when my gut tells me no...i loose because i can't give a solid fact based explanation to his liking.
it's my life too, ya know?

ummmmmmmmmmmmmmm

POJA is not about FACTS
it is about making both spouses happy with the choice

Pep

i know...but, in this case we couldn't get there and he felt he had to make a decision....time was running out.
i know that according to poja we SHOULD have done nothing.
we screwed up.

now, i guess...i need to learn how to deal w/ it.....or find a new solution.
so far he does not like what i have to say.

Pep, you asked what are you defending...

I read that earlier and pondered it a while before replying. This is what I think....

When my feelings are shot down/invalidated whatever, it makes me feel like I'm not important, my feelings are inconsequential. It reminded me of being a child. My mother was/is very emotionally distant, no hugs, affection, nothing. (I was an oops mid life baby). My school thought I didn't have a mom, she never came to anything. It was secretly understood that we weren't to burden mom with anything that might upset her because she was emotionally fragile. The few times I tried to talk to her about how I was feeling (being picked on in school or feeling fat) I didn't get a hug or reassurance...I maybe got a statement of me being too sensitive and then the subject is changed.

When DH acts like he doesn't care, invalidates (or anything that I interpret that way) I go right back to feeling like a nobody, nothing, not important.

I have to say Pep, that is a pretty big insight for me because I feel like now, even if I'm not validated, I can tell myself that I know my feelings are valid, etc. and at least ask for a hug. I can deal with it better.

BTW, when I was 19 I decided I would give mom hugs whether she wanted them or not. I still have resentment over my childhood though.

Once again, thanks Pep.

I also wanted to talk about the POJA stuff brought up with Nia.

I see how it would work in most situations but I don't think it would work in every one. For example, the last house we lived in we were leasing (we intended to buy it at some point). It was the absolute nicest house I'd ever lived in, the kids and I loved it.

We were at a point where we were ready to buy and the lease was up for renew and they were going to raise the payment. We wanted to buy it but they had raised their selling price as well. DH said that we would have to just move and buy another house. I didn't want to leave that house, I cried over it. We could've continued leasing the house with a bigger payment and maybe hoped to talk the owner down in price but DH decided we should move. He supports the household, we moved into a older, less expensive house and I was a trooper about it. The payments were cheaper for a while but for some reason, (something to do with insurance I think) the payments have increased to the point where they are the same as what we were paying before.

Now, I don't blame DH for this, he did what he thought was best at the time.

If we had POJA in place, we would've done nothing, because I didn't want to leave that house. But at the time, financially speaking, moving was the right thing to do.

If we had stayed, that would've been thrown at me every time we couldn't pay a bill.

Another thing, biblically speaking, isn't the man the head of the household. I took a marriage without regrets bible study class at church and was taught about what submitting to your husbands meant. According to the passages referenced, a wife can have an opinion and express it, but ultimately the husband makes the decision.

It kind of looks like POJA favors the status quo and therefore whoever is for the status quo is in the best position to get what they want. Assuming that both partners are not selfish, and are willing to negotiate, etc. maybe that's not an issue.

Mom,

Have you ever considered telling your H about this insight into your needs? It seems to me your request to be heard, or at least validated would make more sense. You are not really asking that he always agree with you right? Just that he listen to you and at least discuss your thoughts. BUT, NOT AT LENGTH, RIGHT? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Just a thought.

God Bless,

JL

Most of the time, it's just empathy I'm after. I admit I am/was guilty of wanting to discuss something too much, usually because it feels like he's not taking it seriously (he'll say what do I need to do to close this issue?). Okay, sounds like I'm a job. But I understand better that that is his mindset, so I'm okay with that. I don't mind him disagreeing, it's the way he does it that riles me up "I don't know why you think that?!" type of thing. I'm okay (now) with not talking it to death. I just want an empathetic "I'm sorry you're feeling down/sad/upset whatever" hugs or to be held for a bit, he can ask if there's anything he can do, most of the time I would say no, just listen, and that would be it. If it worked that way.

Today has been a good day, and DH has worked from home all day, which is no small feat. So I plan on enjoying that fact today.

Sidenote: He told me this weekend he couldn't handle anymore drama, so now, when I say something M/A related, he'll go "you're delving, no drama" kind of joking but I know he really wants to not have the conversation. I have been letting it go but I told him that will not fly permanently. All this was said in a joking kind of way, not with anger or anything. Of course, I meant what I said, lol!

MoM,

Tell him this is NOT drama. It is you voicing what you have come to understand and seeking his "fix it" ability. But, like any good machine you will need "tuning up" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> a little from time to time. You expect HIM to tune you up when you need it.

My point, if he is getting clear messages, and marching orders, and sees results, he will very likely step up. What gets to most of us guys is the "I'm hurting, talk to me". Then we ask "what hurting?" and get "I am not sure, but let's talk". So we have put on best problem solving hat, then told there is a problem but don't know exactly what it is, but talking about it might help.

To men talking about it is NOT the answer, it just gets us confused. It is like taking a car in for repair and telling the repain man, "it sounds funny". "what sounds funny?" "The care sounds funny." "how?" "I don't know how to describe it."

I realize I am being a little over the top, but MOM. You know have a realization what gets to you when he does not validate and where it comes from. He will listen to that.

Drama is another term for "I don't know what the problem is nor how to fix it." in his eyes. Make it concrete, give him a solution approach: hold me, kiss me, make love to me, tell me what you think, tell me you heard me be explaining what you heard me say. There is a long list you could give him, but hand the man the tools.

What will interest you is as he has some success with this. As he gets more comfortable with this, you will have to guide him less often. Also smile and joke a bit as well. It will lower his defenses. It seems to me many of his responses are defensive. He is not on firm ground and is a bit shaky about how to handle this. AND don't forget he is trying to "fix" what he did wrong when you had the affair by trying to reassure you that he loves you. Yet he fears...what do you think he fears.

Good luck and God Bless,

JL

I've tried to say, it's not drama it's just me talking, but then I get defensive and ruin it...I think he might respond to this.


My gosh, I have so done that, bad me!!


I will throw that tidbit in there when the time seems appropriate...


Yes! I totally get that that's what drama is to him. He just doesn't know what to do.


He fears "screwing up." I asked him why he stayed gone after I took issue with his posting and he said it was because if he's not here he can't screw up. I think sometimes I put way to much pressure on him. He has a recurring dream he calls his "biggest nightmare." He's had it off and on for as long as I can remember. In it, we are not together, I have left and he can't find me. He keeps trying to contact me or get to me and can't. Well isn't that telling...

Maybe I've been a renter? And he's always known that.

Hey Mom,

Did you see this?

How you doing today?

MoM,

I am sitting here thinking about his dream and you saying you might be a renter and he knows it.

So let me throw some ideas out and see if anything sticks to the wall.

1. Men are simple, we MAKE things simple. We like to stay on task and compartmentalize things. BUT, men are often very very good readers of people, they just don't say much about it, they just watch. Your H's dreams are his own fears, but he is probably far more sensitive to you than you imagine. Now he may be picking up your uncertainty and unhappiness with him. You are you have spent a lot of time focusing on how he makes you unhappy.

2. Your affair has opened deep fears in him and he is in a semi state of withdrawal fearing making a mistake.

3. Are you a renter? If you are could you be persuaded to be a buyer? What sort of downpayment do you think would be required and could you afford it?

4. Have you like FL come to the realization that you need to forgive your H for his failures, and put the resentment you hold for him down?

So many thoughts, so little data. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Let me know if anything sticks.

God Bless,

JL

Mom,

please do go read the link I posted to you in my last post. in case you didn't realize it the word "here" is a link to the post "Is this fair? (by the time i finished writing this post, i realized "fair" does not matter)"

and think about this question...

are there old hurts that remain in your hurt due to things your DH has done over the course of your relationship??

if yes, talk about them here, and think about what happened in my post as i talked about one specific one.

your MB friend, FL

I'm doing well, thank you.

I will check out that thread and get back with you.

I don't doubt this at all. He has told me that that dream is his worst nightmare. How could he not have picked up on it, I've left him three times in the early years (always after extended periods of fighting/arguing). I would threaten divorce when we would fight.



I definitely think he's concerned about that. From a variety of things he has said, I know he is not confident that I will always be around.


I think I've always been a renter in this relationship, we met when I was 17. The problem was I stayed in the same mindset even after marrying. I had never heard these terms before, but I think that I (and a lot of people) feel that being a renter is the right thing to do, to ensure your own happiness (to prevent becoming a doormat). It's such a me, me, me world. I "thought" I was doing the right thing, for me.

Yes I want to be a buyer. I want the whole enchilada, and I know (now) you don't get that without being fully present and invested. The thing is, the "downpayment" aspect of it...I take this to mean that you accept that the marriage is for life, there's no out when things get tough or don't go your way. That is scary. There is a lot of fear of being taken advantage of if you make that decision, however...

I realize I'm not going to gain anything without risking something. I told DH yesterday that I was now a buyer and "all in." I already know he's a buyer, he has proven that.


Yes, I think this has started to click for both of us at the same time. Over the last couple of days I've made these realizations...resentments I've held onto, unmet expectations, etc. that I always knew were there, in the way...but I couldn't let go. Letting go of them was like losing something. Even though I could see DH was able to do that, always has, something prevented me from doing that (maybe selfish "entitlement" dunno). Until I did something so horrendous, that anything he might have done in the past fails in comparison. And I realize if he can forgive that...how can I possibly justify holding onto those old hurts...and I know that by not doing that (forgiving/letting go), keeps me from having the M that I want!