Damn M_A_Z I can relate to you so much. I feel a lot like what you wrote too. It's amazing how we can all be so different and the same at the same time. I know how wonderful my H can be too and I would love for him to be like that most of the time. However when I ask this of him I am trying to change him. Why is it that when you fall in love with someone you put your best foot forward and as time goes on you tend to do less and less of that? If you leave that relationship for a new one you would have to do all of those same things so why is it so hard to do them for the person you are suppose to love and cheish?

Yes, DIG, it's false advertising, and I for one, plan to sue.

Don't know who just yet, but when I find out, boy are they gonna get it!

Seriously, why not treat the one you married as well and as thoughtfully as you would anyone else, at least as well, if not better?

They actually had an article in O magazine that we treat our families and spouse worse than anyone else we communicate with because we feel like they are there to stay and they just have to deal with that. It also said if they put out half of the effort at home that they do with strangers that their homes will be a much happier place and I could not agree with that more.

I have a different perspective, MAZ...close to DIG's, I think...

Growing up, we saw our parents treat each other terribly, and others, like the guests they were. We saw them fight with their sisters and brothers, cry over their parents and tell us, "Our business stays here."

They were showing their real selves to each other...the selves they despised and prized...and only their self-image to strangers and acquaintances...and they were half and half with friends, in my experience.

They showed the gift of self in abusive and tarnished ways...they still showed all of themselves...daily life does that...in the trenches, which made us comrades and enemies, at the same time.

In marriage, after the self-image falls away...it is a grace and burden to be shared with real selves...which aren't our true, authentic selves...just the best-known selves...the who I think I am today...we are seeing each others' underwear, what we're trying to cover up, even from us...and we share, anyway.

Terribly marvelous...where our separate and equal selves can come out and grow, side by side, if we choose.

Or only see the horrific without the grace, if we so choose.

Remains choice.

And if we choose well, then we are partners and have the pad to launch our selves and leave our self-image...with anyone...far behind.

LA

MAZ,

I so badly want to say something profound that will help illuminate whatever revelation you are seeking, but I can't/won't for 3 initial reasons:

#1. I'm exhausted.
#2. I have no clue how to help.
#3. Even if I thought I could help, I certainly would not even try to post something introspective after LA's thought-provoking insights. LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

How's this:

{{{{{MAZ}}}}}

Ace

So today it hit the fan.

In addition to the standing problem of feeling like H does not want to participate in working on M, I found out he lied about something last week.

Last Wednesday we had a fight and he said he would be working late, he had "stuff" to do. I knew at the time that meant he was mad and he was going to go out after work wherever. DD11 kept wondering where Dad was and wanted to call him. I had been calling him repeatedly but he would not answer. She left vm asking where he was and when he was coming home. He blew up over that telling me that he was at work and trying to make me feel guilty for letting dd call him (and for me not believing he was at work).

I didn't really believe it but I let it go. I found out today, he did not work late, he did go out to a movie and to dinner. I was pretty peeved, not that he went out but that he lied about it and then tried to make me feel guilty for not believing him.

He blew a gasket, and says he's through. He's tired of MB talk, tired of me bringing up anything relating to our R. I agreed I'm through too. He stated he wished he could take his sh*t and the kids and go. I was very clear that he will not remove them from this house. I have discovered we have a standing order in Texas involving not changing anything regarding children or property when a divorce is filed. I don't think he would flee because he has a good job and his parents are here, but whatever happens I want to make sure their life is disrupted as little as possible.

My worry/concern is what he may try to do in the meantime if this is indeed where we are headed. In the past he has threatened to take the car away (it's not in my name) and also I have no access to "his" bank account, so if he cuts me off all I have is very little p/t income. He has also cut off my cell in the past when he was mad at me but now it's in my name. I'm sure there are plenty of things he could do though until I could get a D filed and the SO in place, (money is def an issue though if I have to do it). Although I'm trying to make clear anything he does like that will look badly on him as far as the divorce and custody goes. He does have his parents to go to for money if he needs. I have no access to any significant amount of money which is concerning.

If we do head down that road, life here will be he77. I have no money to leave and he will make life miserable as possible for me.

So hey, fun day here in the lone star state...blech

Oh MAZ,
I feel so bad for you. I wish I could say something to help you feel better. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
You don't deserve this.

MAZ.....DANG!


Did he go alone or with someone?

There must be much more than what meets the eye but where does it all fit in with the MB plan?

I wish I knew enough to be able to help you. Someone said that now that you're approaching D-day Anniversary time, your BS might get more angry. He sounds true to form, but what else is he doing to express that anger....and with whom?

In the meantime, do you have any access to any of his close friends who might be able to clue you in? Sounds like hiring a PI might not be feasible.

I'm soooooo sorry for your pain, but although this may sound trite, how can this be a silver lining somehow?

When my WH blew up, it was because he was hiding his secret reconnection with that OW. My questioning him hit too close to home so the anger welled up and spewed forth.

After D-Days 3 and 4, the fog started to lift and the anger subsided. Your BS might have erupted because of guilt regarding whatever, if anything, he is hiding.

Are you sure you're ready to give up? With few resources, that may be a challenging position to be in. When I gave up, I knew I could make it financially if we sold the house and split everything .....sure, starting over would be a drag, but I had 3 D Days to prepare for it.

Before that, my H refused to work on our M for 32 years. I gave up trying and settled for existing 2 years prior to his A. I may get 2x4ed for saying this, but in my case, my H's A helped him decide I was valuable and that he wanted to choose to work with me on our M. I am not saying that you may have to endure the same thing, but if it's happening, please take solace in knowing that we're all here for you.....whether you're in Plan A, B, or D.

Ace

MAZ,

On yesterday's radio broadcast, Dr H referenced the 15 hours per week undivided attention more than once.

One of the things he said was that IF a couple is spending 15 hours per week, not "solving problems" but enjoying recreational time, meeting the top two needs of a typical man and woman (SF and RC for him/affection and conversation for her) that the feelings return pretty quickly. But he also cautioned a couple who called in that how they each view time spent together is what determines what is really 15 hours of undivided attention. It has to be just that, undivided attention aimed at meeting ENs.

Let me ask you this; how many hours per week have you two been spending just being a couple and "dating" each other? Now compare that to how many hours per week have you been attempting to "fix" what's wrong in your marriage?

When the LB$ is empty, it will take even more than 15 hours per week to rebuild the balance to a point where you have reached the state of intimacy. THEN you can try to fix the things that were once wrong with your M, assuming that you still view them as a problem. All this of course assumes there are no LBs, no DJs, no AO, no SDs...

From your H's point of view, could it be that since he hasn't bought into MB, maybe because so far the LB$ and ENs have been used as a way to explain what went wrong and led to an A, read that "his problem that caused the A." If he isn't on board and you try to "convince him" that it has value, isn't that actually forcing your will on him? How does that line up with POJA?

I will admit that communication is central to having an enjoyable R, but isn't he really trying to communicate his feelings to you? Not all communication has to be about the A and MB. In fact, he may be feeling that so far all communication about what happened in the marriage pre-A has been administered by you to him in a way that makes him feel unsafe to even want to discuss the "real" issues. If the way the A came to light was "We need to talk..." then he is likely to not want to have any more talks about it at all.

When ever someone does anything that is purely selfish and does not consider the feelings of others, their TAKER is in charge. That means either a state of conflict or worse, withdrawal. Their GIVER is no where to be seen and attempting to negotiate is pretty much a lost cause.

The secret is to get him back into a state of intimacy. If he has already said "I don't want to talk about it," then don't try to force the issue. Eventually, if you do the 15 hours per week properly and avoid LBs including selfish demands and AOs, he might actually be willing to discuss problems again, because he will again feel that the R is worth saving; it will mean something of value to him.

Work on rebuilding the love by filling his LB$ and letting him fill yours, and I think you might even find that many of the problems that need solving will solve themselves.

Sorry if this was a 2X4, but I've been following this and have seen where others have commiserated and given you an "amen" several times. I just wanted to weigh in with a differing view point.

JMO

Mark

Mark, Maz et al,

Challenging scenario, great insights, Mark. I learned so much from your posts, too.

TIME HEALS.....but the key is not just quantity, but "quality for ENs."


Thanks,
Ace

Not very many. He says 15 hours is not feasible. When we do spend time together meeting EN's it is me meeting his for the most part.


I thought we had done that. It seems like we regressed, or lost the progress it seemed like we had made. There is plenty of LBing going on in a variety of ways.


It doesn't. But of course he doesn't buy into POJA either, in the end it's his way a good deal of the time. If I disagree then we argue, so there's no winning.


No, I was caught. I have gone to great lengths to tell him and show him that he is safe to share any and all feelings. This is what he's saying to me. He doesn't want to talk about M at all. My wanting too is wrong. There is something wrong with me for not accepting his behavior (lying, AO's etc.).


Well then, I'd say he's been in withdrawal for pretty much all of our relationship.


If that was possible, I wouldn't be posting right now. He cannot go a day without LBing and he is in no way interested in meeting EN's.


The problems would fix themselves, what I am wanting is part of my EN's.


Your opinion is always welcome. I think anyone would have to have followed my posts closely to understand why I am so frustrated right now. I had never really been happy in my M, due to H's treatment of me. I became withdrawn. After my A's, I realized I had to let go of that to let him in again. He made a grand effort and it really seemed like he had changed. But now it seems like he just got tired of trying to be someone he's not. Lots of SD's, AO's etc. in our past and I could give you a long list of them.

Deep down, I think I am a very understanding and forgiving person. I have forgiven having my bank cards cut up, having my cell turned off, having my keys taken so I couldn't leave, him having dinner alone with a woman on a business trip and not telling me, yelling at me in front of kids etc., etc., etc.

I don't need much, I really don't. But I need something.

I have given it my all this year. He will admit to that. But if all comes down to me changing and him not, I'm not buying into that, period.

I think I get what you're saying.

What I don't understand is am I supposed to just accept the LB's, AO's and not say anything?

I understand we all get irritable and we all say/do things we shouldn't. The problem is that H doesn't think he needs to apologize for it or try to tone it down. I'm wrong for not just taking it in his opinion. When I call him on it, I get "you're just looking for something aren't you, I'm tired of this sh*t."

What am I supposed to do with that?

MAZ,

I just spent 20 minutes on a compassionate reply that disappeared into one of those cryptic Windows (...Explorer has encountered an error and must close) messages.

<SIGH>

It does seem that he is abusive toward you and the kids. I get that. Was that always the case?

His secrecy would be a concern to me. Is that new or has it always been like that?

When he was putting forth the effort, what did that look like? What changed, besides his not wanting to try to fix it any more?

Rather than try to recreate my train of thought from before, I'm going to consider this more before I go on. I will try to get back here tonight.

Mark

MAZ,

Healthy boundaries make healthy marriages. Boundaries go around you...and you have total control over creating and maintaining healthy, predetermined, progressive boundary enforcements.

If you have a boundary around abuse...then you educate yourself in identification...being able to identify within any situation, and enforce your boundaries.

That's what we do when we choose to live from respect. Does not train, teach or change anyone else...changes yourself a lot. Have you chosen to live from respect and act from love? To not act from your emotions, but directly from your beliefs?

For instance...when your BH says "This is what he's saying to me. He doesn't want to talk about M at all. My wanting too is wrong. There is something wrong with me for not accepting his behavior (lying, AO's etc.)."

That's abusive. He's defining your stuff and he has no domain over your own stuff. If he says, "I feel like I'm under a microscope, full of pressure and examination...and I'm failing. I hear you saying that I don't meet your ENs, that I don't treat you the way you want to be treated. I hear you saying I have to change my behaviors when you're the one who had an affair."

That's not abusive.

You may want to talk about your M...you may want to share your stuff...what you're feeling, thinking, believing...where your focus is, what you're learning. Sharing is not talking about the M...it's taking your half and sharing it...being present, respectful and brave.

I know you are brave. I know you are honest. There is nothing in you which you cannot share without shame. I know this. Do you know it? If you are addressing him in "you" statements...then you aren't being as honest as you believe yourself to be. "I do this and you don't do" isn't ownership. May feel like it...it isn't.

That's the boundary around yourself...you can't enforce a boundary on HIM when you are doing it. I'm choosing to believe here that you are using "I" statements...and listening and repeating when he speaks. Am I correct?

What I saw you guys do is just to the final boundary enforcement, divorce...without going through all the other ones. They are progressive for a reason--for your self-respect and pride. Just as your BH didn't divorce you without a backward glance last year...so you, too, by choosing the marriage committed to giving it all you had, learning all you could through your personal and marital recovery, so that whatever happened, you would take that with you...

I could be wrong...I believe all FWW do this, make that same commitment.

Here are the DJs I heard:

"Well then, I'd say he's been in withdrawal for pretty much all of our relationship." Did he state that he's been in withdrawal for pretty much all your marriage? Was he in withdrawal when you met and fell in love? When his your DDs were born?

"If that was possible, I wouldn't be posting right now. He cannot go a day without LBing and he is in no way interested in meeting EN's."

The DJ comes in about interest...has he stated, "I have no interest in meeting any of your ENs"?

"The problems would fix themselves, what I am wanting is part of my EN's."

Your focus seems to be heavily on not having your ENs met...which is how we create resentment in ourselves...and I believe you did this pre-A's...is that correct?

"It doesn't. But of course he doesn't buy into POJA either, in the end it's his way a good deal of the time."

Where is your balance of Giver/Taker that you view your choice to do stuff his way? Your choice remains. Your consent, your power...

"If I disagree then we argue, so there's no winning."

Takes two to argue, MAZ. Respect has no arguments...respect has listen and repeat and O&H statements. There's no arguing in that. If you desire him to change his behaviors...and he desires you to change your behaviors...and if you truly believe this is the ongoing argument, then it has no end. There can be no change without understanding. It comes first.

"In addition to the standing problem of feeling like H does not want to participate in working on M,"

Here you did not DJ...you stated a belief you have chosen...you believe that BH does not want to participate in working on M...is that working on it your way, when you want to and in the way you want it? I ask because I had to battle this very much in myself post-A.

Part of the reason I generated and lived in fog was this very formula...I wanted what I wanted, when I wanted it and in the way I wanted it...and did not feel loved...and I was being loved mightily.

We battled behaviors...so I could feel loved. As if my DH was in charge of my love...when it truly is a choice we make and experience love through loving...and look well for how we are REALLY being loved.

Are you looking, MAZ? Are you seeing all the ways your ENs are being met? Discounting was a big way I didn't feel loved...and I was doing it.

Here's why I suspect this... "After my A's, I realized I had to let go of that to let him in again. He made a grand effort and it really seemed like he had changed."

He made a grand effort...you know he is capable. It's not him being an AOer, Liar or DJer by character...he is capable of grand effort. You discounted this in your DJs...you didn't say, "Right now, I feel"...you said you believe he's been in withdrawal for most of your relationship...as if he didn't make a grand effort...which was even grander, 'cuz you made him last place, replaced him, and annihilated him...and he made a grand effort. When did it stop, really? Were you guys initially doing the 15 hours of RC time together each week? Then it trailed off...were you very affectionate, connective, expressing your remorse and sorrow? Was that when he was making his grand effort?

Here another DJ...it's very sneaky...which doesn't mean you are...nor is what you say drivel, either...this is a backhanded way to a false payoff:

"He blew up over that telling me that he was at work and trying to make me feel guilty for letting dd call him (and for me not believing he was at work)."

Trying to make you feel guilty for letting dd call him and not believing he was at work. Can anyone really make you feel guilty? Or can you be guilty of subterfuge, lying by omission? I ask because this, again, was one of my tasty self-treats which corroded my own love bank, broke down what my DH was doing and I made it into me being a victim, him being a monster...and then wondered why he felt like a failing monster, constantly.

Your highest honesty doesn't come out when you are hurting...and I know you are hurting...resentment is like battery acid...corrodes inward and outward...everything. I'm asking you to put it down...take no action, make no statement, which you will resent.

When we hurt, we aren't in our experienced adult perspective...we are looking out the eyes of our inner child, triggering to every lie, betrayal and stab over all our years...and we want bad guys.

There aren't any.

We want somebody wrong, and to pay for it.

This isn't him being wrong...this is him lying and AOing...and when you know "I knew at the time that meant he was mad and he was going to go out after work wherever" and you do not state..."I believe you are angry right now and will being going out after work" then you are lying to yourself, your partner and the marriage.

"Not very many. He says 15 hours is not feasible. When we do spend time together meeting EN's it is me meeting his for the most part."

Does your BH have RC as EN? Dating again...doing fun stuff you did back when...new stuff you've talked about and haven't done together...that's a way to meet all your ENs and it FEELS like play. Can have tough parts in it...when you trigger, he triggers...and through RC, you can teach yourself THIS is now...not last year...coming up on the first anniversary of you being caught for your A's...and since January, he may have in his head, "This time last year, FWW was..." The weather can trigger, the shape of the trees, the way twilight comes and then changes...last year at this time is what plays on anniversaries...I remember. The first anniversary. Second ones rather fly by and you notice not ahead of time...rather on the date...or maybe a week afterward...and you share, "Look how much I've healed...I didn't do what I did last year"...which is why this takes time...big changes and a commitment to not do that which you will resent.

"I think anyone would have to have followed my posts closely"

Could be I am the monster right now...when you're hurting, full of frustration, anger, pain and fear...instead of saying of acknowledging, which I believe others have...I believe you can really hear others who care, connect and remember...or are experiencing now...that your feelings are valid...they are yours, right now.

And I want to show you where some of your feelings are coming from...not him crushing pain into you...the places where you do that yourself and FEEL like it's him, his behavior, his beliefs. So you can have healthy boundaries, thriving marriage and life.

DJs hurt us...we experience them as pain signals...and they come from what WE chose to believe.

"to understand why I am so frustrated right now. I had never really been happy in my M, due to H's treatment of me."

Here is another huge resentment statement and I believe, very much rewriting the marriage...

A's come from Entitlement, fueled by Resentment and lack of Respect.

You owned these when you earned your "F"...you got the ingredients, all your choices...and I'm wondering right now, if you still own them?

Because his treatment of you was ALLOWED by you. Like the doing it his way...half of it is yours. Only half. You can NEVER be more than half of any relationship...not in our human design...we have limits. Own your half...understand your choices, your payoffs...a lot of them may be false...some, very real. Only you can discover them.

"I became withdrawn."

You chose to withdraw.

"After my A's, I realized I had to let go of that to let him in again."

What? You had to let go of withdrawal to let HIM in again? I'm so confused...I thought you learned you had to own your resentment and not create it or maintain it...that it puts this heavy lid over feeling loved, seeing the ways you are loved...and it is withdrawal, justified by focusing on him, his failings, his choices...and not seeing your own.

"He made a grand effort and it really seemed like he had changed. But now it seems like he just got tired of trying to be someone he's not."

Ouch, ouch, ouch. Someone he's not. If your actions define who you are, MAZ, then you'll be an adultress for life. OUCH. God didn't make adulterers...didn't make people incomplete, defective...God doesn't make junk, ever. Your BH is a whole, complete and marvelously made human being...before a word is spoken or an action taken. He is...so are you.

"Lots of SD's, AO's etc. in our past and I could give you a long list of them."

Tell me about the present, where you are living with BH PRESENT...tell me about right now...because when you go into the past, you will feel what you felt then...frustration, deprivation, like a victim, powerless, done to...and you will not be present...and all your emotions will feel as if they are about right now...and they aren't...and that's from your choice to list grievances (which are up to YOU to grieve), injuries, tit for tat, and earning love.

Which is why divorce doesn't solve these issues...we take them with us, again and again, into other relationships...Your BH is equal to every other man on the planet...and he's unique that he has 17 years of knowing you...all of you...and he may not see you new today...and you are. Up to you to share who you are right now...and when you choose to see yourself as new, you will see him with new eyes, too...

See him meeting your FS EN, choosing to be your husband, his presence could meet your EN for appreciation and acceptance...his every word and moment with DD for FC and each time he does sleep next to you...wakes up with you...looks at your face and smiles...comes home...and you can make a really long list, MAZ, if you chose to, to find all the tiny ways...and really see them...so you're not just seeing where it hurts...and you might find your own healing, marital healing, at work.

It's not smooth...when we are hurting and in our inner child, we want it to stop hurting instantly, be smooth and happy...which are signals to KNOW where you are. When you make things "always" and "never" those are signals...

Not judgments.

And they are signals to you, about you, from you. Worth knowing, accepting, heeding and understanding.

Then share what you know, accept, heed and understand.

That's intimacy. Takes one. Not two. It doubles when both of you do it...

"Deep down, I think I am a very understanding and forgiving person. I have forgiven having my bank cards cut up, having my cell turned off, having my keys taken so I couldn't leave, him having dinner alone with a woman on a business trip and not telling me, yelling at me in front of kids etc., etc., etc."

Have you forgiven yourself for what you chose and created healthy marital boundaries around yourself to hold yourself to as your amends? When did he do these things? Were they today? Yesterday? Last week? And what boundary enforcements did you hold yourself to?

"I don't need much, I really don't."

This isn't about your ENs being too high...I see this as you not meeting your own ENs and leaving them all to someone else to fill...and to look away from what is given to you, from love, from his choice...nothing you have the power to make him give you, including his presence..."But I need something."

And you have sole control over what that something is...if you're aware of any conditions you put on it, identifying and owning it...and sharing it. And we're here to help...to say, "I see this...my perception from my experience...I know these statements because I've been there, felt that...and had to free myself through loving respect and ownership. I had to remove blame from my marriage, face it for the fantasy it was...and trace it all the way back in my life, long before BH, children."

"I have given it my all this year."

You believe you have given it your all...have you received, as well?

"He will admit to that."

What's to admit? He either has that belief or doesn't. Doesn't mean you healed him...he has to do half of that. How are you helping do your half, right now, in his healing? In yours?

"But if all comes down to me changing and him not, I'm not buying into that, period."

Why would this be the bottom line? 90% of conflict in marriage are NOT problems to be solved...they are beliefs to be understood...acknowledged...not fought. His beliefs won't heal you...yours will. Both of your beliefs and choices heal the marriage.

He changed...he made a grand effort...don't wipe that out. Know and embrace reality--he is capable...that's part of who he really is...he did not want to lose you...he has gone through terribly fear, to deep anger...this may be his anger phase...when he finally feels safe enough (which is you rebuilding trust through your choices and your recommitment...so admire yourself)...to be anger...because he feared a long time...and now, he feels anger...done to...victimized...and that's another thing to work through...and yes, the timing sucks. Because you are recovering faster than he is...that's the time line...you knew of your choices, your resentment, entitlement, fury, and the A's before he did. He's gonna be behind you.

He may be acting out his anger instead of stating it...so you be sure to state yours. So you can enforce your boundaries around AOs and SDs...and through his anger, you will know how he is separate and equal...his stuff will finally be his and yours, yours...

God works. He does. I may not understand all of his design...even a little, and I'm in awe. Simple to trust...he doesn't do junk...I trust in him. I know he RESPECTS you, MAZ, and will not do that which you do not ask for, from respect. Dwell in him, not resentment, and you will thrive through intimacy.

Choose not to let go to let in...let in, anyway. When I've been furious with God, I didn't let him in...nor did I with my DH...that was me, ACTING on my emotions...making my choices from them. That is not how I choose to live any longer. Because I have been responsible for sharing or not sharing who I am, my whole life...my God-created power...from his respect...and your BH wanted in...and you allowed him. Keep doing that. He really can't harm you...and yes, you can sure feel a ton of pain and believe he is...when it's you, where you choose to focus, to live in lack instead of abundance.

Please, MAZ, choose abundance. It's yours for the taking. You're worth it. All of it.

LA

MAZ,

Well I see the sensei stopped in while I was away. Sort of takes the thunder out of what I was going to say.

One thing that I am struck by is the proximity to the days leading up to Dday for you guys. I know that in the past couple of weeks I have triggered in a serious way over things that I didn't find until Dday, but that I now look back on and understand what was actually wrong and what was going on at the time. That was one year ago and believe me when I tell you, I recall details that you would never imagine possible. And all the memories of that time are awful, hurtful, horrible scary memories.

For me that time was 11 days ago.

Your Dday is ten days later than mine.

If H is anything like me at all, his life may be like h377 right now.

He says 15 hours per week isn't possible. Is that 15 hours something that can be done without being talked about as doing it first? I mean, maybe, to him, the thought of "now it's time to try to meet ENs again" is intimidating and so not fair to him. The point of the 15 hours isn't to fix anything or discuss problems or work on what is wrong; it is to be together NOT dealing with the [email]cr@p[/email] of every day life and just falling in love all over again.

You said he made a great effort at one time. What changed? Consider if he was attempting to save the M using MB concepts, what would it have looked like? He'd have gone into Plan A as soon as he found out he might be losing you. What is Plan A? Doing all you can to meet your WS's ENs at the expense of your own. Is that what his great effort looked like? He was doing anything and everything in an effort to make you happy and not expecting much in return?

That cannot be sustained for long. Sooner or later the taker comes to take with a vengence.


I'm going to stop for now. I don't want you to miss what LA was telling you by my getting in the way.

Mark

It has always been there in an off and on way...we will go through a period where things seem fine and then the darker mood appears, seemingly out of nowhere. I'm not sure if something triggers them, he is very stubborn and doesn't think there is a problem.


again, same thing, off and on, he says he didn't think anything of it, it was no big deal, sometimes he will admit he doesn't tell me something because he knows I would be mad.


This is what it looked like: calling when he would be late, asking for help instead of telling me to do something, having more patience/not flying off the handle when something happens he doesn't like (my car's a mess, for example). Being more helpful in general with kids, house, meals, etc...Spending more one on one time with me, cuddling etc...In a nutshell, less of the LB behaviors... AO's, and DJ's specifically. I don't know what changed except maybe I started pushing harder to work on things and that triggered him?

I took it as a regression and started to feel like I did prior A's, that nothing would/could change and that he didn't care.

We finally had a long talk last night after not talking for about 3 days. It was pretty difficult because it seemed like we went in the same circles, him feeling I'm wanting to talk/work on M 24/7. I'm trying to tell him that's not what I want, just some type of committment and that the LB behaviors need to be curbed or addressed/apologized for right away and trying to explain what I need. I see what one of our problems is is that he doesn't want to accept my feeling on something if he disagrees with it. He will sit and try to prove why I am wrong or shouldn't feel that way. I think there is still a fair amount of unresolved issues but he did agree to go to MC.

I did gain some understanding of his feelings on some things. Talking about M issues makes him think of the A's, it's hard for him to separate those in his mind. He admitted that sometimes he doesn't want to come home because he doesn't want to be bombarded with me wanting to talk about M/R stuff. I thought it was interesting that he kept saying all he needs is x,y,z and he'll be happy, and I kept saying yes, I understand and I'm fine with giving that but what I need is a,b,c and they are different.

I think one thing is that we both are in the position of feeling like we are going to be taken advantage of...we'll meet the others' needs but not get our own met.

So, I'm hopeful that maybe this was just a temporary setback, not a full retreat.

I'm hopeful yet nervous about starting MC...

Boundaries are something I have had a hard time understanding. I did start leaving the room when H would cross the line verbally. It didn't seem to make a difference, in fact it made him more mad. I'm not sure if I'm doing it correctly or how long the enforcement should last, what would be the next step after leaving the room, if I am followed and told not to walk away, etc....


Yes, I very much want to share my stuff. Somewhere there is a breakdown between my communicating it and him hearing it. Either I am not communicating it properly or he doesn't want to hear it regardless of how it is presented. Sometimes it just depends on the day!


I do try very hard to stick to this. What gets us in trouble is when I do this, he will argue with me on whether I should feel this way or not. He will try to bring up other things to prove why I shouldn't feel the way I do. I'm not sure how to overcome this.


Basically, we were both really, really mad...


Ok, thwack taken, no, not always...just feels like it when I'm hurt...


No he has not. The problem is that he wants to do it how he wants to do it, and doesn't necessarily think they're valid needs.


Yep that's true, this is a vicious cycle we run in. I will go gung ho trying to be Mrs. Wonderful and then when I feel like he's not doing his share, resentment will build until I explode. I was trying to talk about this with him before it got too far but he didn't want to which further fueled my resentment. Then we were back in our pre-A dysfunctional cycle. I'm still working on this one. I think both of us are at fault here.


I get the first part about listen/repeat, O&H...what do you do when the other person does not communicate this way? I'm still fuzzy on the second part of your statement.


Duh...of course it is. Thwack.


Here I'm losing you. I mean, on the face of it, what he did was wrong. I do feel justified in calling him to task for that one (which he did apologize for last night). What am I missing, I really want to get this...



I very much get this LA, you are right.


Yes, again, I see it.


I'm losing it again. What I'm getting from this is that his actions are neutral? I'm choosing to interpret them as wrong when they just are? I have a hard, hard time with this. Again, am I missing something...?

"Not very many. He says 15 hours is not feasible. When we do spend time together meeting EN's it is me meeting his for the most part."


I'm sorry...and yet, I thank you at the same time for understanding and seeing...


This is extremely hard...how to separate that, it's automatic and I feel justified in being hurt, like I have every right to be mad because of what "he did." This is very hard...


Totally honest here, yes that is a big resentment statement, however it is true of how I have felt most of the time. I accept now though that I had a bigger part in it than I accepted before and that my perceptions were skewed because of depression and other factors. I accept that while this may have been what I felt, it may not have been an accurate slice of reality. Does that make sense?


I guess I did stop owning them, at least for a bit. I was hurt/angry and regressed too.


Allowed by me? On the one hand, I cannot make someone change correct? I can only put a boundary around myself. So if the other person chooses to continue to behave the same way, what choice other choice is there but allowing? I think I'm confused again here.


Yes, I see that. I was there. I don't know what happened. I became the old me for a little bit. This change stuff is very hard...I took a step or two back...


Oh boy, was I not happy when I first read this.

I had to let it sink in.

Thank you.


Yes, I know. I do have a big problem with this. I think that's what fueled the fire of this whole current problem. I went right back there. It's so hard not to. I tried, I really did, but after a few days of feeling like I wasn't getting anywhere, I slipped and went back there. I need to know, to learn, how to sustain this, even when things seem to go very astray.


Again, I was there, WE were there. We messed up, I lost sight of who I was becoming and wanted to be. Regressed and lost sight of the new things I had learned, because I was hurt and I felt justified.


I'm not understanding this one.


In the past, I didn't have boundaries, I would get upset, we might argue about it right then and there. I'm not sure how to put a boundary around what happened with the lying about where he was incident. I found out while he was at work and confronted him via email. How should I have handled it differently?


I understand this philosophically, but I can't help but wonder at times, what do people get married for, is it not because they feel this person will meet their needs? Is that wrong? I do know that I have placed meeting my needs squarely on his shoulders. A lifetime of that and I don't know how to meet my own. This is still a big problem for me that I'm trying to work on.


Ok, I won't...I didn't see it as an anger phase, because he won't talk to me about it, I saw it as him behaving in the same pre-A ways that I despised. I know that he would be one to act it out rather than state it. If that is the case, I can work with that, I understand. I just wish he could tell me that.

Hard stuff! very hard, LA, help me to keep trying...

I appreciate you so much....

MAZ

Bumping for the one and only LA...

MAZ,

Thank you very much for the bump...I look for you on the board...and I forget that this thread has Pep's name as originator...my bad.

"Boundaries are something I have had a hard time understanding. I did start leaving the room when H would cross the line verbally. It didn't seem to make a difference, in fact it made him more mad."

Which is why boundaries are predetermined, progressive and go around you--not his response.

If removing yourself from a discussion, without stating why, is your first boundary enforcement, then what is the difference between that and withdrawal? If you don't say what was abusive, what you're feeling, how long before resume the discussion again...then you leave your partner with a forever situation, don't you? Doesn't know what he did or said, why you feel upset or flooded, when or if you will ever return to the discussion...which is a hurtful, heartbreaking place to be. I remember.

"I'm not sure if I'm doing it correctly or how long the enforcement should last, what would be the next step after leaving the room, if I am followed and told not to walk away, etc...."

Great questions which only you can answer.

"Yes, I very much want to share my stuff."

Then you share it. Period. Not based on response.

"Somewhere there is a breakdown between my communicating it and him hearing it."

Determine only your part. If you are asking to be heard, understood, validated, empathized with, for him to change from your sharing...what is your goal?

"Either I am not communicating it properly or he doesn't want to hear it regardless of how it is presented. Sometimes it just depends on the day!"

Sharing isn't dependent on the other person listening or listening well.

"I do try very hard to stick to this. What gets us in trouble is when I do this, he will argue with me on whether I should feel this way or not. He will try to bring up other things to prove why I shouldn't feel the way I do. I'm not sure how to overcome this."

Interesting...I asked if you were listening and repeating and you told me what he does. Let's try this again...first, are YOU choosing to live up to your boundary of respect? To hear what he says, and repeat what you heard?

Next...when you share only using "I" statements...and he answers that your feelings are wrong, shouldn't be...then you enforce your respect boundary clearly. "I am sharing with you my stuff...what I think, feel, believe, perceive and how I view stuff. When you tell me that I believe, feel or think incorrectly, you are choosing to act abusively. Stop. My truth is not The Truth. Only my own. It's valid. You are not responsible for what I feel, believe, think or perceive. I am."

That's a boundary enforcement. Now, if you are NOT listening and repeating...if you are debating HIS truth...then he's only doing what you are doing. Or, if you are saying, "Because you say this, I feel this" then you cannot tell him your stuff is yours--your responsibility. You've made it his...you've made your stuff his burden.

Not wrong...just unreasonable. Unliveable...and we live this way in marriage, enmeshed. Just like we did as children.

Boundary of respect...means you know the difference between your truth, his truth and The Truth. The Truth is only actions. Period. For him to say, "When you had an A, I felt last place, annihilated" that's his truth. Respect it. For him to say, "I don't want to talk about my feelings." That's his choice.

Strive first to understand, then be understood.

Know what abusive actions ARE...defining who you are or any of your stuff...that's not in his province. You hold yourself to this boundary by not telling him what he believes is wrong, either. Acknowledge his beliefs when he shares. Do not judge.

And when you cross your own boundary and say, "You made me so resentful!" then you own and amend. "I just disrespected you. You can't make me resent. I feel really resentful right now. I'm sorry I stated my stuff as fact. It isn't."

That's it. That's a boundary enforcement around yourself. Don't bring out the whips and chains and beat yourself up. Acknowledge, own and amend. Stay aware.

Takes practice and commitment.

Boundaries are what you do not allow yourself to do to others and to yourself...they are the same as what you do not allow others to do to you. If you are doing them, you cannot enforce them. Which is why your focus remains on you...your stuff...ownership (remove blame from your marriage)...and honor.

Honor thyself, MAZ.

About flinging the D-word..."Basically, we were both really, really mad..."

I hear ya. I really do. I remember. Once you get to the first time you fling that word out there, then it seems to be reeled into your present and flung around a lot. Like using a nuclear bomb as a boundary enforcement when we only need a flyswatter. Remove your own permission...share with your H that you are removing that permission to blast away...which does happen...because we revoke permissions in ourselves to certain levels...and as we reach higher levels (angrier than before), those old permissions kick back in...and we remove them again.

Thank God for amends, eh?

"Ok, thwack taken, no, not always...just feels like it when I'm hurt..."

Hey! If you thwack yourself, then you'll thwack him. Remove thy thwacker, MAZ. Say gently to self, "Hey, I know I used to believe I was clairvoyant into my H's mind and heart...I know I am not...I don't want feeling falsely safe by doing this. I want to live from respect, not DJs."

When you hurt, MAZ, you are in your inner child...which is why you want to bite back, make H stop taking your toys, rejecting and ignoring you...reasonable, not wrong. It's your brain handing you what it handed you back then...old, ancient survival stuff...because you told old brain you were being attacked. Trick to stay in adult self is to state, not demonstrate. That way, old brain sees H as your partner, not your murderer.

And you've chosen to make him your enemy. Time to revisit that choice, don't ya think?

Key to know you're in your inner child...you react, not choose to act...you feel confused, can't find words, feel scrambled and helpless...stop and breathe...state, don't demonstrate..."I am feeling five years old right now."

Sound ridiculous? If you live from respect, then you have to live in your highest honesty, as well...to meet your boundary. That's honest. And it's not an enemy statement. Kinda funny to hear it aloud...and you may notice you're pouting, might have one foot behind the other, or your hands crossed behind your back. You have permission to laugh.

Your child isn't bad or wrong...she's there because of the way we are made, designed...to grow ourselves. She's a great signal...and a horrible decision maker...don't let her decide your life. It's why we recreate our same issues again and again.

Know her and love her. Breathe. The more you stop and breathe, the less into your child you'll get. You'll stay the adult you are by this recentering.

Speak of your intent..."I want to connect with you. I don't want to be reactive and defensive right now."

Stating the obvious is an old DJ phrase which may come to mind...you're not stating the obvious...you're sharing from your highest honesty. Be brave and true. Choose to be obvious.

And you'll be new.

"No he has not. The problem is that he wants to do it how he wants to do it, and doesn't necessarily think they're valid needs."

I can lead you to see in all ways how much you are loved right now, abundantly. I won't do it if you are choosing to focus on him, his stuff. I need your focus on your own to get there.

Human design: Humans only do what they want to do. Period.

You're human. You cannot make yourself do something you do not want to do...I promise. Think about this and feel free to work it through...like cleaning the bathroom. You have a higher payoff...a clean bathroom your good friend won't gossip about to others...a clean bathroom because you fear germs...a clean bathroom because you can't stand the dirty smell...there's always a higher payoff. Finding it, and finding out if it's real, is entirely your choice.

So it doesn't sway me in any way to hear that you lied about your H saying he wasn't interested in meeting your ENs...he wants to meet your ENs...in the way he wants to do it...so he will do it. He chooses to love you. I don't hear you owning your choice to love him and act from your love.

I believe you do, just as I believe he does.

I have to run...I'll be back.

LA

MAZ,

I'm back...see? State the obvious.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"Yep that's true,"

Do you believe that he creates resentment in you or your Giver does?

"this is a vicious cycle we run in. I will go gung ho trying to be Mrs. Wonderful"

Why? What is your intent when you are being Mrs Wonderful? I removed the "trying" because humans do and don't do...to "try" is to lie.

"and then when I feel like he's not doing his share, resentment will build until I explode. I was trying to talk about this with him before it got too far"

Sounds like you are sharing which isn't stuffing...do you give kudos to yourself? Do you believe you release resentment when you share?

And I hear you measure his share...his efforts...is that correct? Like you measure your own?

"but he didn't want to which further fueled my resentment. Then we were back in our pre-A dysfunctional cycle. I'm still working on this one. I think both of us are at fault here."

More kudos on identifying a cycle you've had all your life...even pre-marriage, pre-H. Would that be close to your truth?

If you choose to believe that the formula for a wayward state of mind is: Entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect...would you make a boundary around yourself, just as you would to not be intimate with members of the opposite sex, to take no action or say no words which you will resent? Would that break this formula and your cycle? Is it in your power or his?

Wanna talk about fault? Do you find it laying all around you? Are you soaking in it? I sure was...I lived in a fault-filled marriage...which had cycles just as you described...with lovely signals like blame, shame, guilt...because I lived in constant measuring...which is judgment. Comes from comparison (a favorite tool of judgment)...and I felt entitled 'cuz I was judging actions. The actions I was looking for...and missed a whole lot of actions, stepped right over them, that I wasn't looking for.

When I chose to remove fault/blame from my marriage, I began to look AT myself, my half, and the marriage. To get the whole picture, without judgment...observed to know, not to judge.

Changed everything in my life. Because I chose a different perspective.

Was everything in my life different instantly? Felt like it...how I experienced it...was it? No. I was different.

If you choose to do this, your marriage will no longer loop around he said, she said; he did, she did; he didn't, she didn't...and become he heard, she heard...they shared...they experienced...he is, she is.

You will be marriage...instead of do marriage. Side by side.

"I get the first part about listen/repeat, O&H...what do you do when the other person does not communicate this way? I'm still fuzzy on the second part of your statement."

That's okay--you look good fuzzy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

When you change your life premise to that of love...which has respect, acceptance, consideration and honesty...then your focus is on your own choices and actions. You live from it by making it your intent, who you really are, and when others cross your boundaries with disrespect, defining, telling you who you really are...then you enforce those boundaries.

At your core and his core, you both desire to live in mutuality...which is both having the life premise of love and acting from love. This is a radically different experience...previously, you guys lived from fear and felt love...makes sense that when you change your premise, he may not change his...change it anyway.

If you truly strive to first understand, then be understood...a lot of your reactivity will stop completely...you'll hear what you did not before...what you filtered out, twisted like a knife into yourself, and be startled that you see your H as new...totally new...and unknown. Not scary unknown...newly not known.

(I just came from the gym and have been thinking funny thoughts...I'm not being nonchalant or mocking here...I feel kinda giddy, though.)

"Duh...of course it is. Thwack."

OUCH! No more thwacking! (However, I LOVE this onomonopeia and will gladly use it from now on.)
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Okay...so you just saw two very important things...you have the power to choose the most heart-wrenching beliefs and then experience them as if they are true about others. Good to know. You're not alone. This is a major discovery.

Next, you figured out that your heart's desire has some pretty strict conditions...you want what you want, when you want it, in the way you want it. Because THEN you can feel loved. Complete. Whole. Admired. Visible. Equal. Cherished. Pick what else you feel when...

You've been operating from crumbs and from boulders...those extremes tell you that this is coming from the child you, not the adult you. Good to know. These conditions are really reasonable when you believe humans earn goodness, love, respect, admiration...that they are who they act like. Are seen as...and it's fine tuning, isn't it? For security?

When you consider humans love from their choice to love...how reasonable do those conditions look? More like silly? Not bad...no thwacking...unless your thwack means a supportive touch to the head for a V8 moment...could be I'm hearing the old flyswatter my mother used on my bare thighs here...or the yard stick...wooden spoon...that's what thwack sounds like in my perception.

And yes, now that I catch myself...I would have been in higher honesty if I shared that at your first thwack, and not this one, eh? So sharing takes time and apparently, exercise.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Keeping along these lines of how you feel loved...the conditions...see where else they apply in your life...they are a pattern, deeply rooted in your perception and perspective...you've been unaware of them, so they've filtered out a lot of your experience, twisted and distorted it...do you apply these conditions, then, to recovery? To your kids? To your parents? To your siblings? At work? In friendships? You can find their tentacles creeping a lot of places...you'll see them best, though, in relation to your H. He's your partner. He's your other half of self...which is why you wanna thwack him, 'cuz you thwack you.

Still thinking you meant thwack as the sound of an ephiphany (I get an awe...Ahhhhh).

Going with that, I'll share that I used to want to make my DH have ephiphanies, also.

LOL

I'd reach for a boulder and then run him down a hill with it.

You aren't asking of me that which I haven't done myself. That's not why I say you aren't bad or wrong. I say that because you are doing or not doing...both are equally important...both have choice. I chose the same. Now, I choose very differently.

"Here I'm losing you."

That's sharing. Thank you.

"I mean, on the face of it, what he did was wrong."

I didn't address what he did...I asked you to consider yoru statement...an O&H statement was it? That he made you feel guilty? Is that your truth? Can you make him feel guilty, angry, sad, mad, frustrated, fearful, terror?

"I do feel justified in calling him to task for that one (which he did apologize for last night). What am I missing, I really want to get this..."

It's not calling him to task...it's stating the truth. "You lied about your intent, where you were going and what you did." That's stating The Truth...which are actions. He can own or continue lying. His choice. He chose to own and apologize.

Where's guilt? Guilt is not living up to others' expectations (which you experienced in that incident); shame is not living up to your own expectations.

Check the expectations. Do you expect your H to not lie? Do you lie by omission? Does your H lie by omission? The indirect and the direct lies are choices we make. Up to us to get to where we are making these corrosive choices...you can't make him stop lying--not in your power. You can get into your highest honesty and live there...where you share, "I haven't been sharing with you. I've been creating and building resentment inside myself...from my own failed expectations. I often feel guilty, shameful and angry."

Permit yourself to do this...when something H does riles you...use it for your power...stating truth without the agenda to make him stop...and find where your angry, frustrated feelings may be directing with you to be more honest. That's your power...your choice. Dwelling in his choices, you have no power at all...which is why you felt powerless, done to and very angry. Oh, and fearful.

Valid, real feelings. Yours. They will guide you to where your self wants you to see your own beliefs...your expectations...so you can know and share.

And thrive, anyway.

Do you believe his lying, defining, withdrawal can stop you from knowing yourself and sharing your stuff? Then your belief would be that unless H does or doesn't do, then you will not thrive. Does that make you powerful or powerless?

"I very much get this LA, you are right."

Now, I'm going to apologize for repeating. In the next section, I read where I said you were in your inner child, and in my last post, I said it again. I do this a lot. My intent is to show you signals, state of mind, choice of beliefs which signal you...and I fear doing it repetitively...because when I hear others do this, I flinch, perceive it as condenscension...not my intent. I honestly forget what I've brought to you...not because you're forgettable...because I ask for guidance...and I think I remain astounded at how often I'm acting from my own child, reactively, when I already know this stuff.

I don't know another way, yet...I truly appreciate your patience.

Now, about the "you are right"...that's a defining me. LOL. Not that I don't like it...sure speaks to who I was before...and I don't want to go there. What I hear is you saying, "Yes, I believe this, also." No right or wrong honestly in there. Am I close?

"I'm losing it again. What I'm getting from this is that his actions are neutral?"

Are his actions about you or him? Are his choices his own, or about you? We make a lot of stuff about us...part of God's design of humans. We are trapped in our own filter...comes through our experience, our eyes and ears...we can't hear or see through others. We may believe we can. We really can't. His choices (the truth) were to lie and deceive...that's reality. Making it about you, an attack, a withdrawal...whatever further conclusion you want to draw is your truth, not the truth.

"I'm choosing to interpret them as wrong when they just are?"

If you want to judge your H as wrong...meaning not what he did...that is a wrong human being...go ahead. Phrase "His choices were wrong and hurtful." Well, you felt hurt, and a lot of other stuff...where does his actions end and your truth begin? I'm asking for you to perceive and view differently, for right now...to unravel enmeshment, so you can stand free and thrive. It's gonna be hard. It's not forever.

"I have a hard, hard time with this. Again, am I missing something...?"

I'm trying to remember how I truly got this myself...it was when my DH was WH...and I had learned we truly are separate and equal human beings--all of us--with our own power and limits. I had based my A on DH's choices...I made him my master and child, alternately...so powerful that every choice he made, made me. I'm asking you to truly see your own choices about you...for instance, if you make H a peanut butter and jelly sandwich on whole grain bread, and he only likes white, and you just know he'll complain, but you're out of white bread...do you see your choice as making him a sandwich or not? From love, not demand? Your choice, not his? He can see your choice as an attack, a punishment, a discounting choice to ignore his likes and dislikes...does that mean you did?

"Not very many. He says 15 hours is not feasible. When we do spend time together meeting EN's it is me meeting his for the most part."

The second part of you quoting yourself (I'm for that)...I'm very much that the majority of 15 hours should be RC...playing with each other...inner child with inner child...which was pretty much how you guys fell in love...delightfully, creatively, which makes you guys each others partners, not enemies. Vital to recovery. One hour a week, I believe, spent on communication exercises (1/2 hour one day, and 1/2 hour two days later)...this was the formula we used...and I love it to this day.

And no, TV doesn't count as RC.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"I'm sorry...and yet, I thank you at the same time for understanding and seeing..."

Whatcha sorry for? I was being vulnerable...how does that make you sorry? I am sharing my fear of being seen as a monster...this fear remains in me...up to me to not act from it...which to me is backing down, withholding from you...where I see in you what is in me...where I lived, what I experienced, because I truly loved resentment more than my DH...more than myself...my dear, dear poison.

Yech...what an admission. Whew.

"This is extremely hard"

This is a truth I share about DJs...they are so built-in, so sneaky and alter our life experience so much...it is extremely difficult to MAKE yourself not DJ. The false payoff seems very, very real.

"...how to separate that, it's automatic and I feel justified in being hurt,"

How about a crossed signal here? You feel hurt...and you have chosen to live from proof...see? It's okay to hurt...he hurt me. When the signal might really be...it's okay to feel what you feel. That is just and true. That's reality. You HURT. Lose the justifications...they come from a wayward mindset, remember? So they aren't linked to reality...but to fantasy. The fantasy belief you have that you have to justify your feelings...justify your signals...instead of trace them.

"like I have every right to be mad because of what "he did." This is very hard..."

And look at you, considering though it's hard...figuring out a new mindset...don't forget your kudos, 'k? Feelings ARE...you feel angry...valid signal...yours...inside you. You don't any rights to feelings...they exist. They are yours...by God's design. All humans have feelings...owning them is a choice. Own yours without justification. Own them to know and trace...within yourself...to the beliefs they are coming from...that gets the signal, finds your way, and how we know our power.

Relieve yourself of justifications, him crushing pain into you...for right now...right here. So you can see through your eyes without judgment. Experience your choices being about you, from your own code...and then hazard a glance over there, elsewhere, 'k?

And how great that you have this resistance and are sharing it with me...'cuz this would be what would stop you from living from respect...if you cannot see yourselves as two whole, separate people...owning your own choices...you wouldn't be able to share your own stuff, correct?

Btw, I remember what jarred me into choosing this new perspective...it was being asked (probably by dear JL, Pep or ML)...do I want to be right or be married?

Which is why I do not use "right", I use "correct." I go for accuracy in communicating...clarity...not judgment.

I wanna stay in this perspective...and I know I'm sneaky enough to go into judgment, which violates my code...judging others' stuff...like if DH has the right to be angry with me or not...instead of hearing, knowing and acknowledging my DH feels angry right now.

(He's at work, so I'm using that as analogy, not truth.)

I think I went from giddy to dippy. How 'bout that?

Endorphins! That's it...I couldn't think of the word...

I just postjacked myself...is that possible?

Do you know you will get whatever you need when you need it most? Trust yourself, MAZ...this is a lot of stuff...I'm sharing...not telling you to know, live and act...I'm asking you to be open, take what you need and leave the rest...revisit, allow me to repeat, and you steer me to what resonates with you...healing isn't a set of instructions...we've lived off the false power of our resentment, justifications, disrespect...like sick medicine, for decades. You don't have to believe anything...you choose. We have a lot of beliefs we don't even KNOW we have...let's get to those, so we both grow through knowing, 'k?

And we do that just how we're doing...each in our highest honesty...sharing...what we resist...good to know what we resist, I think...

Psssst...it's a signal, too.

"Totally honest here, yes that is a big resentment statement, however it is true of how I have felt most of the time."

When you want to measure...know that you are looking at proof. It's okay you feel resentment, anger, sadness, frustration...all are coming from your fear of ... what? Know also when you choose to judge rather than know reality, that judgment is what you'll get...you will have made your judgment into your belief and experience great anger, resentment, sadness, frustration and fear from the choice to judge.

Stay present, right now...are you sorrowing you chose to earn love? Create and nourish resentment? Take that poison? Did I already quote WhoDat?

Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die.

I'm asking you to not judge...to say, "Feels like it's been this way for years...maybe, all my life. Me, the Giver, others The Taker." Whatever you feel, state it as yours...your perception, what it feels like right now, on this rung of your upward spiral staircase...not making it fact...

"I accept now though that I had a bigger part in it than I accepted before and that my perceptions were skewed because of depression and other factors."

I hear you...to negate your power is to resent YOURSELF. Hurt me a lot. To see my choices in retrospect. Then it freed me. This is how you get to freedom, MAZ.

"I accept that while this may have been what I felt, it may not have been an accurate slice of reality. Does that make sense?"

Ahhh...yes. Sharing is stating your truth..."I feel" "I think" "I believe"...not making them facts...which hurts you inside, and your marriage.

Thank you for walking yourself all the way there. You beat me.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"I guess I did stop owning them, at least for a bit. I was hurt/angry and regressed too."

Now you know...when we stop owning, we live in blaming. We just do. Not your fault...God's design. You're experiencing it. What you see now is that it's a choice...you were getting a lot of signals you were regressing...re-experiencing a lot of stuff (every betrayal, lie and deceit) from before...all piled into one lump...your signals were pain, fear and anger. Tracing them alerts you to being in your inner child...seeing through those fear-filled eyes. Good to know. No bashing (or thwacking) required, 'k?

And what you experienced was very much what you feared experiencing, wasn't it?

Adults own...children evade. LOL. Know why? Because as children, we are discovering who we are...when someone says we did something bad, that means we ARE bad...we do that...because we're trying to figure out stuff...easy overlaps...which can last a lifetime. And we fear being abandoned through rejection, neglect (invisible) and annihilated through insignificance...all while we are totally dependent and have no control. Frightening experience...and you will have these signals when you choose to base your stuff on your H's stuff...when he makes you feel, think, believe, etc. That's what you experienced in childhood.

Know your signals...and choose not to live from them...choose to trace them.

Getting signals...it's part of our responsibility as humans. Our choice to live from them. Living backwards. Like flying blind.

"Allowed by me?"

I love this...I just saw your head snap us and your eyes get fiery in my own mind. I take the Fifth Endorphins on that one.

"On the one hand, I cannot make someone change correct? I can only put a boundary around myself. So if the other person chooses to continue to behave the same way,"

You were getting there...until you jumped from chooses to act to continues to behave the same way...

When he crosses your boundary, you do your first boundary enforcement...and if he continues right then, you do your second...and if he chooses to continue, your third...fourth. That's for communication. Actions have different ones...though they are parallel. In communication, each time we communicate, we enforce...in actions, they are progressive for each incidence.

"what choice other choice is there but allowing? I think I'm confused again here."

Each time you do not enforce your boundaries, you allow...permit...do not do your half. Usually comes from a permission inside us to do what the other is doing (like lying) under certain circumstances. When we are in fear for our life or the lives of our loved ones, for instance. Or if we fear murdering someone else's feelings. Our belief system is really complicated...I know there are levels to permissions which kick in different beliefs. When I began to trace my feelings, I found it simpler to see if I could find the offense in myself, as well, where I violate my own boundary, then I could find the permission to NOT enforce it.

Cleared the decks. This is to reorient, live new...not forever. I'm still learning, too.

When we enforce, we no longer allow...and you're right, that doesn't mean we stop them from doing or saying...they choose, we choose...according to our code, not reactively to their choices.

That fire in your eyes in my head...from your highest honesty, your great sharing...that was a signal in you that I crossed your boundary...that I was lying to you when I previously said, and you believed also, you can't control others...which means you don't allow, either. It was a signal in you...share it with me, please. 'Cuz that's not you getting it wrong...it's your signal...and I had it, also...definitions...our own definitions...which parallels living from them, in them, all over the place...a defined, judged life...and I believe, signals you truly no longer desire to live as if you are more powerful than you are...and no less.

Already.

"Yes, I see that. I was there. I don't know what happened. I became the old me for a little bit. This change stuff is very hard...I took a step or two back..."

No judgment from me...You see it now...that's what counts. Humans do this...not bad or wrong...we step into our habits...act from beliefs we used to live by...triggered by our old brain when we feel attacked, threatened...naturally. And our new brain is where we own our stuff, live in our power...know we are not dying from an attack...as our old brain experiences it...and I believe, it's why we CAN grow...because then our new selves can see our old selves and meet...shake hands...shake heads...come to our own understanding, forgiveness and experience life whole.

Could be the endorphins right now. That's new, btw. Not repeating. Which is why I'm posting to you...two-way street...I very much want to love my old selves...who only were doing what they knew how, then...

Thank you for your time and effort, MAZ. That was big for me.

"Yes, I know. I do have a big problem with this."

Talking about re-experiencing the past (from our thoughts dwelling there) as if it were the present...before I go on, I want to ask you to not see this as a problem to be solved. It's a choice of where your thoughts dwell, which triggers the rest. Choice. Not problem.

"I think that's what fueled the fire of this whole current problem. I went right back there."

Great awareness! Kudos here, not thwacks, 'k?

"It's so hard not to. I tried, I really did, but after a few days of feeling like I wasn't getting anywhere,"

Can you see where measuring (judgment) kicks your own tushie?

"I slipped and went back there. I need to know, to learn, how to sustain this, even when things seem to go very astray."

Judgment again...and I'm highlighting so you can see...no bashing or judgment from me. You know why I can spot them....why they scream at me...'cuz it's in me, too. It's not like this is easy to see because it's NOT in me.

When things seem to go very astray...from what you desire, expect, work to earn, smooth, keep steady...?

Would you consider when you get signals you don't like? Fear, being the top one? We can spend our whole lives managing our signals...naming them positive or negative, separating them into desired signals and undesired ones...best and yucky...like sorting marbles instead of playing with them...what they're for. I know. I did that. Came from my choice to LIVE from them, rather than know them. Own them.

Changing your intent to live directly from your beliefs great reduces how long signals hang on...the quicker you identify, trace and share...the sooner they drop. Well, at least the yucky ones. I don't trace the loving, joyful, blissful ones...I'm too busy loving them up and sharing them.

LOL

Yeah, I said yucky...I did.

If you choose to experience a present life, not judge your life, you will experience a real life. Not a fantasy one.

"Again, I was there, WE were there. We messed up, I lost sight of who I was becoming and wanted to be. Regressed and lost sight of the new things I had learned, because I was hurt and I felt justified."

I believe you. Totally. And when we fall...there's a reason. If you weren't consciously choosing to love...if you fell back into earning love and punishment (feeling punished)...then there's more to learn and grow, isn't there? Maybe, even, that we mess up...we stop staying in our high awareness, slip into judgment, wrestling...old stuff. Maybe you learned to rise and grow together...side by side...and now, you're learning to fall together...to go back, and come back into the present...not because you messed up, because you still choose to create and build resentment...something you didn't revoke permissiont to do...didn't vow to yourself...because when you were totally there, you weren't feeling, experiencing resentment. Now you are. Another layer...not a sentence on who you are or your marriage...or who your H is...he didn't make you feel THERE...you were THERE together...not from earning...from doing and not doing.

As you are now. Learning to fall is how we learn to soar...same stuff...different direction. Did you even conceive of upward spirals before? I only knew downward ones...didn't know we can break those cycles or make new ones...didn't know my power and limits...remains true in our human design.

You're discovering through rediscovery...to catch parts you didn't see, stepped over, tiny bits...realigning, not a makeover...you lose sight of...and you choose to focus so you have you in your sights. Choice, not justification. Three inches from where you are looking right now. That's all.

This falling was how we got to understanding...our way...that me and DH are in this together...truly, the better, mundane, worse and tragic...and that all things come to pass...and we wanna pass together. Every step of the way...involves disconnecting and reconnecting...each a surety...a parallel to how we disconnect from ourselves and reconnect to ourselves...through choice...awareness.

How about choosing to be delighted you fell...so you can rise again? Choosing to see it as you both falling together? Opportunity, not condemnation..which is judgment. Opportunity is not judgment. Like you, just is.

More than enough for anything, anyone, any life. Whole. Complete.

"I'm not understanding this one." Have you forgiven YOURSELF for your choice to have an A? Your pre-choices of creating and building resentment into entitlement and not respecting your own stuff, your H's stuff, or your marriage?

And if so, can you see where you've chosen to do amends through new, healthy marital boundaries, your choice to honor them...and how this is more like extending what those boundaries...getting to the source choices you may not have seen before? Means your marriage is MORE protected now, doesn't it?

Means you're still working it, girl!

Right here, right now...nothing lost...just more. More. Okay with more?

I ask 'cuz it's measuring. I don't have the words I want right now.

"In the past, I didn't have boundaries, I would get upset, we might argue about it right then and there. I'm not sure how to put a boundary around what happened with the lying about where he was incident. I found out while he was at work and confronted him via email. How should I have handled it differently?"

You had boundaries...you weren't aware you had boundaries. You didn't allow some stranger to come up and hit you over the head and walk away...you would have called the police. You didn't allow others to hurt you without you hurting back in some way (child's boundary)...you didn't allow your six-year-old to smoke in front of you and say nothing...we had boundaries...what's different is our awareness. That we choose, define and thus, define ourselves in our choices.

How about we hold that question on handling it differently for later? It has a should in it...and my saying "however you choose to handle it from your code" sounds crappy to me right now. What if you put a note on your monitor with that question and ask it after four more posts, however long that may be?

And I used the tense wrong in the answer, anyway...because I, like you, was a timekeeper. I lived more in the past than the present...my way of organizing proof of love, acceptance, consideration and honesty. Part of the living from resentment (which makes an awful moral), of constantly measuring my actions, others' actions, the past tense. We'll have new stuff and then you can tell me how you chose to handle it, maybe.

And about the shoulds...because we wanted what we wanted, in the way we wanted it, when we wanted it...we will look at our actions and choices, and possibly measure them to prove ourselves something...right, wrong, good, bad...something. What do you think? Like sharing isn't enough if we aren't being heard, then acknowledged and considered, accepted and loved in the steps...which is doing the same thing in a sneaky way.

Something like that.

"I understand this philosophically, but I can't help but wonder at times, what do people get married for,"

Reasonable. Your issues were formed in a relationship with your parents, siblings, friends, at an early age. To address them takes a relationship...can't do it alone. No one to cross your boundaries, hold the mirror, breathe your same air and experience together right now...

And mature love...when you both get to Phase III (real payoff for Phase II), is when you both live from love (which has respect, acceptance, consideration and honesty) in your full and complete selves...side by side...and then, well, you don't wanna leave!!!

"is it not because they feel this person will meet their needs? Is that wrong?"

There's the wrong again...I'm sidestepping it...it's not wrong...it's more. More than you can conceive of right now...and that's okay. You tell me your payoff in jumping to the future you don't know...even theoretically...without faith...because it has no room in a code of honesty and respect. Your choice in what you want to live from is yours...the future isn't...and if you predicate your choices now, on what to live from, from theories about the result...then you're still choosing to live a life based on possible response than on your own code...in your own power and limits. Which is choosing to live in fantasy, isn't it?

"I do know that I have placed meeting my needs squarely on his shoulders. A lifetime of that and I don't know how to meet my own. This is still a big problem for me that I'm trying to work on."

Not trying...you ARE working on it. Get your list of ENs and write down all the actions you take to meet them inside yourself...if you want, share them with me.

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"Ok, I won't...I didn't see it as an anger phase, because he won't talk to me about it, I saw it as him behaving in the same pre-A ways that I despised."

You triggered...and saw it as him making you trigger. If he didn't do those behaviors, you wouldn't trigger...is that close? How about owning your triggers...which is what I learned as a BS, not a WS...because I finally understood, as you already showed YOU understand...that human beings trigger to the past...and we do it cumulatively...in our design...for a reason. We do. Not them doing to us. We're in control...and that triggers are benign. Yes, they FEEL awful...and we don't like awful...if we are unaware we are triggering...reliving (because our brains do not know time...everything is now...and our brains hand us what we experienced before as if it is happening right now...hence, trigger). Signals, not sentences.

How do you feel when you go there?

"I know that he would be one to act it out rather than state it. If that is the case, I can work with that, I understand. I just wish he could tell me that."

How about choosing to believe, which is faith, that he will? Not when or how or in what way yet...just know he will. He's shown you he grows...and falls...and like you, acts from old, not now. Very much same stuff...all human stuff...we do. Not odd, broken or defective.

Wish is another word which signals our wishful innner child...and it's like a sentence we don't complete...would you please complete that sentence? "I just wish he could tell me that so I would feel (think, believe, perceive, view) <blank>"

He CAN tell you his stuff...he's capable. You are stating you want to be shared with, to know and be known. Your power is to be safe to be known...and to know. You've just experienced a downward spiral into enemies...both of you...great choice would be to be pals, playmates, partners through RC, affection, repair work...so both of your old brains (truly, this isn't about age, we all have old and new brains) will settle down and mark your partner as your nuturer, protector...the good guy.

Old brain judges...only on or off. No middle ground. Another signal you're acting from inner child/old brain...which is what we know first, for survival. Our new brains are where we learn to thrive.

I believe in you...through your sharing, I grow. Your highest honesty. This is who you really are...up to you to choose to know, not judge.

You aren't trying...You are choosing to ask, know, wrestle, consider and KNOW...you are doing. Thank you for BEING here with all your doing, MAZ.

LA