Believer, I think at some level, I've already started the process of moving on, by telling myself not to be stupid and hope for her to wake up suddenly and want to make this work. I'm putting my home in order, and I'm working harder at my job after having spent the last 4 months since D-day doing almost zilch, just enough to get by.

I can't do a proper plan B because I told her she should reconsider and think again before she really calls it quits. Hence this supposedly "one month separation" till the end of April or soemthing. Because of that, she still has a lot of clothes and stuff at home, and I've changed the locks, telling her I didn't feel comfortable with someone not living here having the keys and coming and going as they pleased. So she will need to contact me should she want something and arrange a time to come get it. Hence plan B wouldn't work because of that.

She hasn't contacted me yet, apart from a quick call last Monday about some work stuff (she thought I wanted to see her when it was someone else) and the birthday greeting via SMS. Unlikely to also, but I heard she needs to fly to the US in mid-April for some conference, so she may need to come back to get stuff. I don't know.

Dev….where are you from with the time difference??

OK….I have been reading up on your thread and as the resident lesbian…I have lots of comments……………….



Larry…… this sound pretty angry…and a bit judgemental…..this may sound like I am picking on you….but I am not…I am just going to shed a light from my point of view….as a lesbian……



this is right on track….there is a lot of intensity in lesbian relationships……have you ever heard the joke “what does a lesbian bring on the second date?…. a U-Haul”
That’s because lesbian relationships are on ….until they are off….and that usually means they are now sleeping with their next conquest. Lots of road kill!!!



Unless she is in the closet….she will wear her identity on her sleeve. If she is openly flirtatious at the office, my bet is that she doesn’t hide her identity…..btw, I am a lesbian…and I happen to be attractive (if I may say so myself)…..the thing is….when you see a woman who looks like a dyke…you think she is gay….you would never think an attractive woman with long hair, lipstick and heels was a lesbian…but there are thousand…millions of us….:)



BINGO


Hey guys…….there is a reason for this……..you see, straight women see a lesbian as a win/win…….someone who appreciates her…lots of conversation …attention …. admiration…..sexual attraction…. But NO risk of anything inappropriate because straight woman are straight, right?? That’s where the line gets crossed…….straight women don’t realize the risks inherent in receiving all this attention from another woman….their guard is completely down…and all that meting EN’s is very powerfull……I have been there……and the love is real and very emotional.



Larry….I am curious where your point iof view originates???dev….IMHO…...this is not what is happening…….if she wanted to control you she would not have left the house....when I had my first encounter with a woman….I was freaked out……a lot of self identity crap to go through……this woman is scared and she is doing the exact right thing….trying to get clear so she can wrap her head around the mess she has made of her life…….she is all consumed with her…….dev…she can barely see you right now…and from what you have written, she is remembering someone who was controlling and belittling……not a good thing to remember……

IMHO, I would be trying a good plan A….because I will tell you what….that lowlife dyke…..who is living with her parents….is pouring it on thick……affection…attention….conversation….comfort…..if you W is strong enough to resist that, she is a superwoman……..I would expect that Contact is continuing…..and I would fight for her……because her dyke is fighting for her…..she thinks of your WW as a conquest.




Larry…dev is not in plan B…hasn’t even really done a plan A…..he doesn’t have to have NC, unless that’s what he wants.
dev....are you ready to move on?? I mean you don't have anything holding you together...is she worth going through this??? do you love her...willing to better yourself??? plan A maybe????

k guys....sorry for the long post....but I had to comment on some of that:) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Good Morning Dev,

Hope your weekend was great and you"re ready for your Monday morning at work <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

While us guys here are still enjoying our weekend.

See you did you passed WW B-day with flying colors... I'm proud of you keep up the good work.

Still

My comments are in bold Everthing else is as quoted.

OK….I have been reading up on your thread and as the resident lesbian…I have lots of comments……………….



Larry…… this sound pretty angry…and a bit judgemental…..this may sound like I am picking on you….but I am not…I am just going to shed a light from my point of view….as a lesbian……

Works for me. My major in college was Cultural Psychology. I have a lifelong habit of observing sub-cultures in action. In another life, my sister-in-law was a fluff. My wife and I were involved in her life to a certain extent socially and emotionally as she went through various stuff with her butch. We went out to various clubs. I listened. Sometimes I would ask a question or two, just in the course of a conversation. I learned.

No, I am not angry. I just playing back what I observed.



this is right on track….there is a lot of intensity in lesbian relationships……have you ever heard the joke “what does a lesbian bring on the second date?…. a U-Haul”
That’s because lesbian relationships are on ….until they are off….and that usually means they are now sleeping with their next conquest. Lots of road kill!!!

Yea, I noticed the road kill. I made a mental note that a lot of them act out the part of who they think males are, without the testosterone poisoning to get it right. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />




Unless she is in the closet….she will wear her identity on her sleeve. If she is openly flirtatious at the office, my bet is that she doesn’t hide her identity…..btw, I am a lesbian…and I happen to be attractive (if I may say so myself)…..the thing is….when you see a woman who looks like a dyke…you think she is gay….you would never think an attractive woman with long hair, lipstick and heels was a lesbian…but there are thousand…millions of us….:)

Lipstick lesbians are a whole nuther sub-culture that is different from the one I opined about. For one thing, they tend to be more bisexual than the other one. Also, fluffs dress and act exactly as you indicate you do. I have not asked which way you swing <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />





BINGO

Hey guys…….there is a reason for this……..you see, straight women see a lesbian as a win/win…….someone who appreciates her…lots of conversation …attention …. admiration…..sexual attraction…. But NO risk of anything inappropriate because straight woman are straight, right?? That’s where the line gets crossed…….straight women don’t realize the risks inherent in receiving all this attention from another woman….their guard is completely down…and all that meting EN’s is very powerfull……I have been there……and the love is real and very emotional.

Some time back, I posted a whole diatribe on the techniques of seducing a woman. A cruise ship guy also posted his own take on the subject. First friends, right? On the other hand, I can see that an appeal from a woman is even more sneaky. Like you said, lots of road kill out there.

And yes, the feelings are real, even if the foundation is bogus.




Larry….I am curious where your point iof view originates???dev….IMHO…...this is not what is happening…….if she wanted to control you she would not have left the house....when I had my first encounter with a woman….I was freaked out……a lot of self identity crap to go through……this woman is scared and she is doing the exact right thing….trying to get clear so she can wrap her head around the mess she has made of her life…….she is all consumed with her…….dev…she can barely see you right now…and from what you have written, she is remembering someone who was controlling and belittling……not a good thing to remember……

Ok, your points are well taken. And you may be right. I differ to your more extensive knowledge. On the other hand, I saw my sister-in-law have a date with her ex just to scare her butch. She was doing it because her butch was making eyes at a potential new conquest. It worked too. Well, it worked after a whole lot of drama went down.

This is that old saw about mixed signals. How the heck do you figure out if the light is green or blue if you are color blind. And most guys are color blind when it comes to figuring out female logic strings, if any. Guys are stupid. A woman is nice to a guy and he thinks she wants to have his babies. Sheesh *grin*

IMHO, I would be trying a good plan A….because I will tell you what….that lowlife dyke…..who is living with her parents….is pouring it on thick……affection…attention….conversation….comfort…..if you W is strong enough to resist that, she is a superwoman……..I would expect that Contact is continuing…..and I would fight for her……because her dyke is fighting for her…..she thinks of your WW as a conquest.

As you say, on the second date, she brought her U-Haul. How is any guy going to fight that? Answer, he can't, not and stay sane. On the other hand, he might get away with calling it like it is with your expert advice and telling his WW that he will be there for X period of time to help her when the butch moves on to her next conquest. Hey, I am just a guy. I know more than most men about women, but that isn't saying a whole lot and my ability to deal with the truck load of drama in a situation like this is limited to my ability.



Larry…dev is not in plan B…hasn’t even really done a plan A…..he doesn’t have to have NC, unless that’s what he wants.
dev....are you ready to move on?? I mean you don't have anything holding you together...is she worth going through this??? do you love her...willing to better yourself??? plan A maybe????

k guys....sorry for the long post....but I had to comment on some of that:) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> [/quote]

Ok, you have provided great advice. Now Dev has to decide what he can and cannot do based on his own abilities and inclinations. I just hope he doesn't get played. I just hope that he wasn't played.

Larry

Fightingback - It's nice to have a resident lesbian.

I have lots of friends that are, through work. The one thing I've noticed is that there are a few who look mostly for married women. And I think a woman just naturally knows how to get close to another woman.

How long did you know your wife before you married her?

[color:"red"]Hi fightingback and Larry,

Thank you for your thoughts and perspectives on lesbian relationships. Firstly, I need to get it out there that I'm NOT homophobic, nor was I ever, but after recent events, I cannot look at a woman who dresses up as a guy and not feel resentment and anger. Sigh, I hope this feeling will pass one day. [/color]


[color:"red"]From talking to my WS about this, that was exactly what happened. She never felt it necessary to keep a distance, like she would have had it been a guy showering all the attention on her. So she was slowly drawn in as their friendship and bond strengthened. I saw a couple of red flags, like when she mentioned to me months before the A started that they both could talk about anything, and could even complete each others' sentences sometimes. And about how nice the OW's car was soooo cool, that her next car would be that one etc. Alarm bells did go off, but I was (foolishly) secure that my WIFE would NEVER cheat on me, especially with another woman...pffft[/color]



[color:"red"]Thank you for pointing this out. Yes, at times I was controlling and belittling, I don't deny that. It was a hard time for me adjusting that my wife had been intimate with someone else, and seemed so damned unrepentant about it.. I know, the fog and all, but it was still a hard pill to swallow.

But I tried to plan A to the limit of my ability. I learned to control my temper and anger, and at the end, I learned to let go and let her make the choices on her own.

I guessed at the emotions that may be going through her mind, but I've done the exposure, I've pleaded and tried to get her to have NC, I've snooped and waited up all those nights she came home late, asking her who she was with, where she went... I'm tired, and I'm sure she was also from all the endless questions. And I don't think I want to do it again, go through that period of uncertainty and anger, not again, at least not when she herself is unwilling to at least commit to TRYING to make the M work. [/color]




[color:"red"]I guess at this point, I'm saying that after all I've done, after trying to get her to realize what she's doing, after all that -that if she wants to live that kind of lifestyle, if she chooses that dyke over me, then we're finished.

She's an adult, she's made her choices. At some point, whether now or in the future, she will have to be responsible for her actions. We're both financially independant of each other. She has a car, I don't, never needed one since I live within walking distance to work and public transport here is very efficient. So, she's able to see the butch anytime she wants, and vice versa, and I would never know about it.

I'm saying that even if I force her to come back, I will be living in that uncertainty again. I will be wondering whether she's seeing that butch again. They work in the same industry and the butch is close to some of WS's current colleagues, and I know she drops by WS's office once in a while on the pretext of seeing one of WS's colleagues.[/color]



[color:"red"]
Am I ready to move on? Yes I am.

Is she worth going through this? Thats a harder question to answer. I know she's still in the fog, I know she probably is still in contact with the OW. The first 3 months after D-day, when she was still confused and lost and was at least willing to try, yes, I thought she was worth it. So I tried. I did my plan A, no it wasn't perfect, but it was the best I could do, and I will never look back and say there was something more which I could have done within my power to change things. But despite all of that, she still chose to move out, to not want to even try. I think at that point something inside me broke as I realized I would never get her back again.

Do I love her? Yes I DID. I loved my WIFE with all my heart. There was nothing I would not have done for her, and though our M had its ups and downs, and until the point she left, she still KNEW that I truly loved her. But this person she's changed into, no, I don't love that at all. THat was not the woman I married and is not someone I want to spend the rest of my life with.

As for plan A, I think the time for that has passed. Short of a miracle, that she comes back and is willing to do whatever it takes, and to be completely honest with me, we are done.

Sheesh... made me tear up in the office again typing that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> [/color]

Hi still,

Yes back to the grind... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> Why can't we work Sat and Sunday and get Monday to Friday off?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Nothing much happening today, other than an SMS from WS saying "Thanks for the card. Got it this morning" after she came for her mail this morning. I didn't reply.

You have a good evening <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And the butch, just like a serial male philanderer, gets another notch on their belt. And all it cost was an emotional train wreck, or two.

Larry

Hey Dev,

Hope you had a good day.

Today it's raining and sleeting and we may get an inche or so of snow. That's what we call springtime here. I was hoping to be able to take in Christmas decorations today... oh well.

I get to go to work tomorrow... lucky me.

Still

Oh well, like they say $hit happens, and too bad we have laws over here, else.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Wow, your Christmas deco is still up? lol

I thought my mum's place was bad, and they took it down close to Feb <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Pretty good day, meeting went well, did a bit of shopping with a friend, bought some clothes and stuff then had a few beers. About to hit the sack. G'nite <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hope you have a good day at work too..

larry......LMAO......I just have a different view point....not better or worse <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> and yes, there is drama, drama, drama in many gay R's...but the making your partner jealous is age old, and all women use it.



dev......this is the anatomy of an affair...any affair.....she got her needs met by someone else.....it hurts like heck.....and I can't imagine the complex feelings you must have because of the gay element. IMHO...despite your usual stereotypes of gay R's, most monogamous long term R's are just as boring and normal as any heterosexual R. I guess what I am trying to say is...its still a betrayal....no more, no less...a broken trust...yes, your feelings may be more severe because of it being with another woman. I agree that the more severe the offense, the less likely you will be willing to forgive. but she is probably very distraught with this element as well...

imho...there are 2 scenarios....she's been gay all along...had thoughts, feelings and now had the courage to try it on for size....if this is the case she will probably feel a bit of an "a-ha" relief...most closeted lesbian break out and never look back, they don't have questions...they KNOW that this is what is meant for them...this doesn't sound like your wife...

scenario #2....she fell in love with a woman....it happens...doesn't mean she's gay...means she was vulnerable...means she got her needs met by someone else.



dev......we were all foolish to think we were secure....we were on auto pilot...and the ship ran upon an iceberg!!



dev...you are reacting........you cannot force her to do anything......you control you........you will not be in a R while she is seeing OW...so, ...what will you do? how will you be a better you....be a man she would want to come back to......act like the person you want to be, don't react to her craziness....its all fogtalk........the A will end...they always do. And If she choses to come back…..you state the conditions…..NC……IC……change jobs…yada yada yada!!



don't wonder.....assume she is, she may tell your WW that she is there to visit colleagues, but you and I know why she's there....don't live in denial.....they are seeing each other....expect the worse, and if you are pleasantly surprised you wont feel like such a fool for believeing her….she is not trustworthy right now.




dev......you miss your Wife....she is not here right now, but think of plan A as leaving a message on your Wife's voicemail......the alien WW will get the message now, but she will save it, and one day your Wife will hear the message...thats what you are going for.....be a better you. for you and potentially your W again someday.

If your wife could do NC, IC….everything it takes to get you back, would you give it a chance??? Then maybe you should think about plan A……you have left the door open for her to reconsider right? Why not give it a month??? Not being a doormat…. But a better you……warm, understanding, caring…..but still with boundaries of NC….are you 100% sure that you are done?? Will you have any regrets if you stop here?….for your Wife, not the WW that is taking over now…..

Fightingback:

Just out of curiosity and not by any means attempting to hijack this thread: Did you get my bit about lipstick lesbians? What about that as relates to this situation?

Larry

larry...is this the quote you are refering to??

I think getting into labels is very dangerous...I for one would have to label myself as a bisexual Lipstick Lesbian...have had 3 long term R's one with a man and 2 with women....of note I have only been "in love" with women. but if I end up single, I would date either men, or women...whoever I am attracted to. I happen to be attracted to women who look like women, and men who look like men...go figure??

women that you term "Lipstick Lesbians(LL)", I am assuming that you mean they look like heterosexual women....ie:dresses, make-up...love things that women love....yada yada yada. I have known LL's who are with a woman currently but still claim to have attraction to men...I also have known these women who would be LL but only go for gay women that personify like a male ie: a butch.

so , again...I think there are stereotypes...some people fit the stereotype...some do not, I guess just like any subculture...there are many who land on either side of the spectrum. I do believe there is a duality of being gay...one aspect being self identity...ie LL or Butch, and then who you chose to be with, or have an attraction to ie:LL or butch...this is only MHO though...you will see 2 LL's together, or 2butches(not as likely)

as far as dev's sitch....his wife is probably not a LL, or a butch...but barely even gay.....she is having an identity crisis...and a moral crisis...and she is looking for direction....it would be unfair to put any labels on her right now.....she doesn't even know what she's doing...but I think she may tuck tail and run home to the safety net....I just want dev to be prepared for that chance...

It may be a local culture thing. I have hear the term Lipstick Lesbian used by those who called themselves that to explain their orientation. And it is close to your first description - bisexual and good looking.

Thanks. And I agree based on your analysis that WW may decide to run like heck to her safe spot. On the other hand, she may not. So Dev has to decide how much punishment he can take waiting for her to decide.

Larry

Thanks guys... again interesting perspectives which I had not considered before. While I have a known gay men, one of them I would consider as a close friend, I have never really never dealt with gay women up until the time my WS got involved with one.


As I mentioned earlier, short of that miracle you mentioned above happening, I think we are done. However, if she does come back and is willing to at least TRY, to prove to me by her actions that she wants to really make this work again, then I will be there for her.

I told her before she left that I would not and could not stop her, but that the door would be open for her should she want to come back -but it would not be open forever. And she understood that.

Right now, I *am* giving her the month to reconsider. I told her as far as possible that I wanted NC with her until she made up her mind, simply because I knew that we would both continue to LB: me trying to get her to be transparent about her whereabouts, and her feeling resentful about that, the arguments etc. I was beginning to HATE her, and I didn't want to feel that way.


Thank you, I think you've hit the nail on the head. She isn't gay (well, not really), but the part about tucking tail and running home, well, I'm not so sure it'll happen, though I had harbored that hope inside ever since she's left. But I don't know if she still considers ME as her safe spot, but the door is still open for W to come back.

I've done my plan A before she's left and she was still adamant about leaving, so I let her go. But she knows I will still take her back if she's willing to take up the 3 conditions I've set:

1. NC with lesbian for life
2. Commit 100% back to the marriage
3. Be completely, 100% honest with me about everything

What more can I do?

Dev,

[]

The only reason my Christmas stuff is still up is because it's frozen to the ground <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The extension cords are all under snow... hopefully I can pull them up soon.

You sound good and like you have your head on straight about what you want from your WW and that's good.

Still

Well, I've just pretty much confirmed what I thought was happening -she's just biding her time while looking for a place to shift into. Read an email where she told a friend that she had still not found a place to move into. She's going to the US in mid-April for a week and will resume her search for an apartment when she gets back.

As I mentioned earlier, she's bunking over at a friend's place right now, so there's a limit as to what she can bring over. She still has a *significant* amount of stuff (clothes and such) at *my* apartment so likely she's making use of this one month to get 'free' storage while she looks for a new place. The way I see it, I have 3 choices:

1. I call her over and tell her I know she's moving out anyway, that she has decided to already. And I want EVERYTHING to be cleared out of the apartment. Plan B, or Plan D... whatever.

2. I give her one last chance. Call her over to talk. Tell her I'm still here for her, but I want her to make a commitment to come home and work on the marriage, else I will not want to carry on waiting for her indefinitely.

3. Leave things at status quo -know she's made up her mind to move out permanantly, but stay silent and not contact her until the day she calls me to say she wants to move out her stuff.

I'm really not sure what to do. I'm vaccilating between 1 and 3, and I know that 2 is a long shot, at best. She seems to have made up her mind already, so why can't I? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

(((Dev)))

That must of hurt to read that e-mail.

I don't know what to tell you. Only you can decide what you need to do in the end.

Do you pray? Maybe pray for an answer. THat's what I try to do. Just pray for a clear head to make a decision.

I'm leaning toward holding out a little longer.

I wish I could help more.

Still

Thanks for the support, still. I guess even though I was expecting this to happen, it doesn't lessen the hurt by much when you actually see it for yourself.

I have been praying every night, and am no closer to an answer or solution.

I can rationalize all I want: Its better cause I won't have to be with someone who's betrayed me and never have to keep wondering if she'll do it again. I won't have to deal with anger and resentment issues with her. I won't have to put up with more lies. We won't have to argue and argue and argue and get so frustrated with each other. Etc...

But all I'm feeling now is a renewed sense of loss.. sigh, if only human emotions were as easy to turn off like a light switch...