Here is what I think.

If she isn't interested in being your wife...I see no reason for you to store her stuff.

I'd box it up and drop her an email saying your stuff will be available for pickup date X through Y after which it will be tossed/sold/whatever and she has the opportunity to make arrangements [make note that these arrangements do not involve YOU dropping it anywhere or paying for anything or lifting a finger aside from boxing it to get it out of your house].

This isn't vindictive and it isn't pressure...it's pure unadulterated practicality.

There is no reason for you to be a doormat...it does not serve you in any capacity..it does not serve potential recovery...it does nothing except make it that much more convenient to use you while betraying you. Do not train her to be inconsiderate. It is completely outrageous that she has an expectation that you would just be her unpaid storage unit while she actively lies and plots and sabotages.

Hi noodle,

One thing I've been considering, and not only because I want to avoid throwing her stuff out for good: What if she's telling her friends that she's looking for a place because she had already told them before she moved out that she intended to move out, when in actual fact she is really still thinking about the M? Wouldn't that sabotage ANY chances at a reconcillation? Not that I want to be a doormat or anything, but at best, demanding she move stuff out will only be a minor inconvenience to her at most, and would probably serve to push her away, for good, if it hasn't already reached that point. What do you think about this POV?

I was thinking that while she's in the US next week on a business trip for a week, I'll try and sound out some of her closer friends if they're willing to meet up for a coffee and talk to me. Tell them the entire story and ask them to help both of us decide how to proceed, that we're both tired of the fencing and just want to settle and get on with our lives. The friend I have in mind doesn't know about the A or OW (as far as I know) so I'll probe and ask if she's seen the OW recently when they've gone out together recently etc. That way, I will know for certain.

Just a thought... opinions and 2x4's welcome. Thanks all for supporting me through this dificult time <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

First of all, I'm sorry to hear about the email.


I'm trying to figure out why you're so worried about this part of things -- is her stuff really in your way or something like that?

Don't get me wrong, I understand you're hurt and angry about the the email -- to be honest I thought you'd found an email to OW -- but I guess I don't really understand your concern about storing her stuff "free" for 1 month or at this point 2 weeks? Are you afraid that she'll leave it there indefinitely? Give an inch take a mile kind of thing?

Or, is there some other aspect to this that you're trying to figure out: ie. you want out of limbo so bad that you alternate between pulling the plug and hanging in a little longer and this "stuff' is just a physical manifestation of that struggle. Because, I gotta tell ya, on the list of offenses that your wife has done to you ... storing her stuff at your place "free" for a month seems pretty far down there on the list. Maybe it's just me.


You can make up your mind at any time. Heh. You're asking US why you can't make up your own mind. *nudge*


What were you expecting? I thought you were more or less resigned to waiting a month?


Look. Here's the bottom line.

It sounds to me like you're getting anxious and impatient and you just don't want to wait out the rest of the month in order to hear bad news (which you anticipate). You're frustrated because you haven't been able to ACT in any significant way to resolve the situation and being in emotional limbo is painful and untenable to you.

You can make this about her, if you really need to, but I think it's closer to the truth that you are having a hard time waiting. Throwing her stuff out is just another way to pressure her for a decision or grandstand about making yours.

You're still trying to get her attention.

Look at your ideas:


You could just quietly make your decision -- tell her the door has closed, you're exhausted and you don't want to deal with this anymore and to please make arrangements for her stuff. That would be owning your own decision to call it quits. But, no. You want to "get her attention" by telling her you "know" she's moving out anyway and THEREFORE... blah blah blah.


"One last chance..."

'nuff said.


This one has merit... but you're still making yourself a victim at her expense. No wonder you feel like a doormat.

So, here's what I think.

I think you're not done yet because you so very much want her attention -- even if it's in a negative way. I'm not saying this because I don't think she's done enough to warrent you BEING done -- she has. I'm not saying this because I don't think you deserve peace -- you do. I'm just saying this because all the signs indicate to me that you're still way to emotionally entangled in this whole mess to behave/believe/process objectively about it and that even if you call her up, tell her to get her stuff out, and file for divorce --- you STILL won't be done with it all.

I'm not even saying this because I don't want you to be done.


I've said it again and again and again -- and it bears repeating again.

Stop concentrating/focusing/obsessing about your wife.

You have roughly what -- 2 or 3 weeks left. Use that time to take a giant step back so that you can see enough of the picture to decide what's best for devastated, ok? In the great, grand, glorious scheme of life and all things -- if the worst concession she gets from you is free storage for 1 month -- then you're so far down on the doormat list that you're practically invisible. Seriously. If all she gets from you is "waiting" for 1 month then you're still so far down on the doormat list that you can't even see yourself.

Take. A. Deep. Breath.

Stop reading her emails for a while. Stop worrying about what she's thinking. Stop trying to manage this or figure out some way to manipulate this for closure and instead try to figure out what else you have going on in your life and what priorities you've dropped to fix this relationship.

I really think if you stop thrashing around so much -- you might find the answer is easier than you think it is.

Mys

mys

I love you because its uncanny how easily (and accurately) you see through me. You've just done something which I've been unable to do -to put the feelings that I've been unable to express together into words that accurately describes my current state of mind!

You're right, it wasn't about the storage -it doesn't get in my way and I'm staying alone anyway. Don't need much space... but more of "you want out of limbo so bad that you alternate between pulling the plug and hanging in a little longer and this "stuff' is just a physical manifestation of that struggle" and "Throwing her stuff out is just another way to pressure her for a decision or grandstand about making yours."

Let me digest your words a bit more then I'll post more later...

PS...

I see you waiting always for the AHA! moment or the climax that turns the tide and gives a clear answer yes..or no.

Not the nature of the beast. Sorry I know it stinks.

There will be what looks like aha! moments follwed by a big fat nothing let down.

Small steps that are taken..large steps not taken and really..until recovery is a distant hindsight in your rearview mirror you won't have any certainty about whether you would still make the same choices again.

Things that feel right go badly...things that are counterintuitive often are necessary.

It's a big fat mess so you really can't stress TOO much about detail issues because in the big picture I very seriously doubt that any one minor decision has the power to make or break you.

So if you decide to keep her stuff there..it's really not THAT big of a deal. I have an opinion about what the best thing to do with it is and why...and I have offered it..doesn't mean you have to agree.

What I would suggest in all sincerity is that you seek help because it is apparent that you DO have control issues [both trying to control others and failing to defend yourself] and these will follow you from relationship to relationship causing collateral damage.

I would not expect you to be able to sustain a long term mutually satisfying relationship unless these are dealt with.

Hey Dev,

On a lighter note...where I live we are getting 7 to 10 inches of snow tongiht. And you wonder why I still have my Christmas lights and outdoor tree up. I did take in Santa yesterday.

Good thing my Daffodils haven't come up yet.

Out a heavier note.. I agree with the others. Give it till the end of the month if you can make it that long.

And I was leaning towards talking to the friend but I will bow to the experts here. That's probably I'm where I am because sometime I act before I think. I think we are very similar in that aspect... I have no patience, I act out of emotions and I'm still emotionally tied to WH.

Keep your chin up.

Still

Hi everyone,

Firstly thank you for all the help and 2x4's; before I respond to them, I just want to update you on what happened today:

Update:

I stayed back at the office gym for a table tennis game with colleagues. Half-way though I decided to go take a look and see if WS's car was in the car park, because I knew she was going back to her mum's place for the long weekend. As I was walking towards the car (it was there), out my WS from the lift lobby! I was startled and she had seen me, so I walked up to her and said "Hey, how've you been?"

She looked good, lost a bit of extra weight and responded pleasantly. She said she wasn't going home cause her passport was stuck at the US Embassy doing up her Visa for her trip to the US next week. Then she asked how I've been and I said "good", to which she said "that's good to hear"..

She then asked me if I was ok, and was I still bitter about things (wtf). I said I wasn't really bitter, but was sad that things are where they are today. Our 'conversation' eventually went back to the M and R talk and with me getting on her case about her being irresponsible and running away, and with her rolling her eyes and going "Are we going to have this discussion NOW?".. then she said "we've got 2 more weeks, can't we leave it until then??"; [Larry, noodle and especially mys - I can see you shaking your head and going "you idiot!" just about now]

Anyway, I made a statement that she was still seeing the OW, and she didn't deny it. In fact, she said that she saw her in a group and that they were "just friends" and I said "whatever" but I was quite pissed off at this point, though I didn't show it. After a while more of this, I asked if she was going to come get her stuff, since she has already more or less made up her mind, and she said she hasn't yet made up her mind, but felt like she was "more or less, 60% sure" she didn't want to continue the M. I said, ok, if that's your choice and walked away. She called after me "OK, you take care" but I didn't turn back and continued walking on.

A while later, she SMS'ed me saying "I guess I've not been very fair to you to make you wait for an answer. Prob we can talk about this on Sunday, 29th April"

I didn't reply and went home and she called me up. First thing she asked me if I had gotten her message and I said yes. She said she knew I was frustrated because I had to wait for her, and I replied that my frustration wasn't from waiting, but it was the frustration of a man who knows that his wife will not work on the marriage and is continuing to see the one person she should be avoiding. I said I was frustrated because she said she was going to think about it FREE FROM INFLUENCE FROM BOTH SIDES, and here she was seeing the lesbian again.

She said the three conditions I mentioned to her (honesty, commit back to the marriage & NC with lesbian) -she didn't think she could or wanted to do it.. adding that the last one was the simplest. I let that slide, though there was a big "Yeah right!" in my head. I asked her why we were beating around the bush when we both knew she had made up her mind already? And she said she was 80% sure, but that sometimes she would still feel regret and remorse and wonder if she was doing the right thing.

At that moment, I remembered bob-pure's thread: not to discount the price of admission back to the marriage and setting your boundaries to protect yourself.

I told her this:
"Our marriage wasn't perfect. I realize I was always controlling, everything had to be done my way, on my time. Well, I've also realized I need to change. I'm not going to pressure or threaten you, but to just say this:

If you are not willing to meet those three conditions I put forth earlier; that you be 100% honest with me, commit back to trying to make the marriage work, and to have NC with the lesbian, then I'm telling you: WE ARE DONE. There IS no marriage without any of the three conditions, and if you ask any SANE person, they would tell you that in ANY marriage, honesty, commitment and fidelity to your spouse is a REQUIREMENT, not an option.

You ask me to give you a deadline, but I tell you now that the ball is in your court. YOU will have to decide if you're willing to commit to those 3 conditions, and only YOU will know how much time you'll need. I want to put this behind me and move on with my life. I'm moving on and while I'd love to have you with me, I also won't hesitate to leave you behind.

I'm not closing the door on you, but telling you that if you want to come back, you have to meet those 3 conditions or we have nothing more to talk about. Now, was there something else you wanted?"

She was pretty stunned at this point, because she never expected those words to come out of my mouth- she said no and I said good night and hung up. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

A small victory because:
1. I've heard from the horses' mouth that they are still seeing each other, though she denies they are romantically attached or anything like that. Just knowing they are seeing each other still has made my thoughts a bit clearer.

2. I've made it clear to her that I'm no doormat. I have my boundaries and I will stick to them. I am no longer afraid of losing her because I consider her as 'lost' already anyway, so that makes it easier.

Any and all comments and 2x4's WELCOME. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Very, very, VERY well done!

Perfect, in fact.

You hit this one out of the park, my friend. Congratulations on a job well done.

Mys

Ditto...

Althought I wanted to crawl through the screen and strangle you for engaging rather than walking away I DO think you said what needed to be said although it was probably not *quite* so clear amongst the various attempts to power struggle and create accountability in an unwilling partner .

I think what you said there was really very gracefull and you might consider sending it ..all by itself...in a letter. Do I think for one second that it got through..not remotely. Do I think that is a great message to refer to if and when she is ever ready to be receptive...100% yes.

I think she has made it very clear in her reactions that she doesn't want to be married but she's too much of a coward to just admit it and take responsibility at this time.

She also seems interested in having you as a backup in case she changes her mind later

In other words..it's another day in WSville...take a number step to the back of the line.

Thanks myschae and noodle,

Yes, I figured you're wanna strangle me for talking to her in the first place <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> -I felt the same way after that 'failed' conversation at the car park. She was ALL WS, no trace of the W at all... and walked away suddenly because I knew that we were just spiraling down the same old black hole again.

But I think I redeemed myself in some way during the phone call when I told her in no uncertain terms that I was sticking to my boundaries, and too bad if she wasn't agreeable to it.

I will box her stuff up next weekend after my family leaves (they are coming over for a couple of days and staying with me) then dump everything into the spare room to await collection, whenever that may be. But I expect it will be soon, if I read the WS correctly.

Hey Dev,

Don't know if you celebrate easter or not... If you do have a Happy Easter.

If not Have a great weekend.

Still

Yes I do, but have not gone to church in a while! Happy Easter to you too!

Thanks,

I will not be able to go to Easter mass on Sunday (I'm working).

If I don't get out to late on Saturday I will be going to Easter Vigil Mass.

Still

Well, heck. If you needed closure, I guess you got it. The conversation on the phone was better then the one in person.

Closure and Plan B no contact are both there to protect YOU and to provide a dose of reality to the WS. In other words, you are moving on with your life and they must contemplate being without you, back up, front burner or whatever is in their fog bedazzled brain cells.

Up to and including that many times they are too embarrassed to do the hard work of rebuilding of a relationship, easier to cut and run. I suspect that this is what is happening here. I suspect she got sucked in by the Lesbian who befriended her using tried and true methods of seduction, woke up to find herself in a quandry and yet tempted by all the drama the lesbian delivered.

I can only imagine all of the convoluted rationlizations and cognitive dissonance going in on her head. With kids, I suspect the outcome would have been different. With no kids, it is easier for her to move on after keeping you dangling on the end of a string than it would be to do the right thing.

Now do no contact, get your head on straight and move on to the next chapter of your life, wiser for the experience.

Larry

As per noodle's suggestion, I want to give WS a more 'permanent' record of the conversation we had, and was thinking of sending her this email. My objective is to basically tell her that without meeting those 3 conditions, we have no marriage and that I'm making my final stand, no more wishy-washy BS. Want your opinions, thanks.

------------------------------------------------------------

Dear WS,

First of all, let me just say that I acknowledge that we did not have the perfect marriage -there is no such thing. But, it was certainly never as terrible as you imagined it to be now, because you certainly never thought so before the affair with that lesbian.

You will never know the ****** you put me through because of your affair. Despite it, I was willing to look past it, to see it as a mistake, a weakness of the flesh that we may all commit, and to give our marriage another chance. I didn't do it because I think I'm morally better that you are, or that I was being magnamious, but because I truly love you and treasured our marriage. They say you never know what you've lost until its gone, or almost gone, so yes, I realized how much you meant to me just as I was about to lose you.

However, you have your decision to move out, just as you have made up your mind to continue seeing that lesbian, whether or not you are "just friends" or not.

Like I mentioned earlier, our marriage wasn't perfect. I realize I was always controlling, everything had to be done my way, on my time. Well, I've also realized I need to change. I'm not going to pressure or threaten you, but to just say this:

If you are not willing to meet those three conditions I put forth earlier: that you be 100% honest with me, commit back to trying to make the marriage work, and to have NC with the lesbian, then I'm telling you: WE ARE FINISHED. There IS no marriage without any of the three conditions, and if you ask any SANE person, they would tell you that in ANY marriage, honesty, commitment and fidelity to your spouse is a REQUIREMENT, not an option.

You ask me to give you a deadline, but I tell you now that the ball is in your court. YOU will have to decide if you're willing to commit to those 3 conditions, and only YOU will know how much time you'll need. I want to put this behind me and move on with my life and while I'd love to have you by my side, I also won't hesitate to leave you behind.

That said, I will pack up your stuff after my family leaves next week and you can come by and collect them at a convenient time, hopefully by mid-May or so, as I understand you're travelling a bit more with this new job. After this time, I will not speak to you again until either:

a. You come to your senses and come back home, or
b. We meet to sign the divorce papers.

I'm not closing the door on you yet, but telling you that if you want to come back, you have to meet those 3 conditions or we have nothing more to talk about. If you want to live your 'single' life, with or without that butch, then go ahead. I do not want to be a part of this insanity.

BS

Don't send it.

This isn't really a Plan B letter, it's a written lecture.

I could go through it line by line and disect it but it's so far away from where you want it to be that it's not even worth tweaking.

Start over.

A Plan B letter is supposed to be a love letter It starts with something like "I love you and I married you for life..." goes on to say that her actions are causing you to loose love for her and therefore you are not going to contact her in any way and then ends with a list of conditions that must be met in order for reconciliation to occur.

It's not about lecturing her about what she 'imagines' or what she did to you and how you felt about it or even throwing yourself on your sword and saying you realize what you did wrong (but it wasn't as bad as what she did nah nah nah).

So, writing a Plan B letter is a good idea.

This is not a Plan B letter.

Now that you have all this out of your system, why not give it another go?

Mys

Just a quick question for you because I'm really curious.

You've said many, many times that you realize you've always been controlling and have to have things your way. You also said you realize you "need" to change.

Where do you think you are in that changing process? Many of us have pointed out to you that you are still somewhat manipulative and do a lot attention seeking/grandstanding behavior (controlling).

I'm not at all minimizing her affair's damage to the relationship because obviously that's the biggest problem your marriage is facing. However, it even sounds to ME like you're just paying lip service to the "Ya, so I'm a little controlling and I need to work on that ..." part of things and I'm on your side here!

You keep mentioning that you "need" to do this without ever mentioning any kind of plan or concrete steps or things you're doing to stop being controlling. Which is a little like her saying that she's going to 'stop' her affair without ever agreeing to transparency or accountability, etc. And, by your actions you're not having a whole lot of success (just like she isn't with NC).

Now, normally, we don't really call people out on this board for being controlling because it's SUCH a common complaint from WS's. They ALL think their BS is being controlling -- it's practically a euphemism for "why aren't you excited about me tossing your heart on the ground and stomping on it repeatedly."

In your case, however, you seem to realize that:

1.) this was an endemic problem in your marriage -- your wife isn't making it all up to justify her affair though undoubtably some of it is the whole "Why aren't you happy for me while I destroy your life" routine.

2.) You have a REALLY hard time self managing yourself away from being manipulative and controlling and ... well.. those of us that are trying to help keep pointing that out to you. It's not just one person, either.

Even if your wife ended her affair, why do you think she SHOULD come back to you if you don't have some sort of concrete, effective plan in place to stop the controlling behavior beyond "Oh yeah, I realize it's a problem... You have a point?" You wouldn't accept that from her about her affair, would you?

Somewhere in all of those requirements, I don't see anything about committing to Marriage Counseling or somehow building a better marriage in which you both get to be happy. I just see the things that would make you comfortable. I see lots about her accountability to you and changes she needs to make and I see very little about what is going to happen to make sure all of her concerns are addressed. If you received a letter from her that just addressed the things she wanted out of the relationship and paid light lip service to the things you wanted -- how quickly would you say "oh yeah, sign me up for that!"

Somehow, at the end of the process called recovery, you're supposed to end up with a marriage that is a true partnership where you both have your needs met and no one is being controlled, manipulated, lied to, gaslighted, abused, smothered, unsafe, etc. The plan to get there is going to undoubtably require a referee in the form of a counselor. I recommend the Harleys.

Ya know?

(ok, so that wasn't quick. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

Mys

Dev - controlling people are often passive/aggressive. You might want to read the links in my sig line, especially the first one, and see if you think they apply to your situation.

Good luck.
Mulan

Hi mys and mulan,

OK, to address the matter of my 'controlling' nature.

Honestly speaking, I can say that the two biggest problems that *I've* brought to my marriage were my controlling behaviour/stubborness and my quick temper.

To give you some background, I was an only son, and the youngest in my family. So I guess I was a little spoiled growing up and was used to having things go my way. This is in no way blaming anyone but myself, but my sisters and parents gave in to me quite frequently and I guess I brought that sense of entitlement over to my marriage. Oftentimes I had to have the last say, and I had to have things done MY way or NO way. I was never abusive (as I've pointed out earlier), but I was manipulative by using emotional blackmail to get my way. Pretty childish I'd admit, but I would give the 'silent treatment' to my wife when I was not happy about something until she came around to seeing it MY way.

So then I suppose this also played a part in my temper. I got irritated easily, and would bark at her over something trivial that went wrong, like one time years ago I scolded her for using the dish cloth to wipe a stain on the table instead of the tablecloth.. Yes, I know, something pretty minor right? We would get into arguments and sometimes she would end up crying out of frustration, and then my heart would soften and I'd apologize to her and be nice -until the next time it happened again. Sometimes we had fights because I felt that she wasn't being considerate enough towards me, like when she goes out till late at night and never bothered to call home (this was long before the A), and I would get upset and say she didn't bother enough to at least call and let me know before hand, like I would have done in the reverse situation. Etc..

This isn't to say we didn't have a good marriage. We did. She knew I loved her and that there was nothing I wouldn't do for her, but sometimes I would have a bad day and then it would happen again. Not often, maybe 2-3 times a year, but I guess often enough that it left deep scars on our relationship.

She kept bringing all this up, saying she can only remember all those moments and none of the good times in our marriage -in truth, they didn't happen all that often, and which marriage is perfect? I had told her I was committed to the marriage, that we could go for counselling to each solve our own issues, so that we can have a better marriage.

And indeed, I've learned to stay calm, to make a conscious effort to NOT get angry -and even my fog-filled WS said she could see the difference! I'm working on my 'controlling' problem and everytime I get feedback from you guys I think it over and try to address it, to ask myself what my intentions behind this statement or that statement were. I am WILLING to change.

But I guess my need to control and to have the cards falling my way is still evident in my postings, and its great that you guys keep pointing it out to me. I realize this is a SERIOUS problem which I will need to address, maybe not for this marriage, but for any future relationships I may have also.

So honestly, I can say that while my WS's anger at my temper does have some justification, it certainly wasn't true that she was ALWAYS UNHAPPY. We've had loads of good times and unless she was a Grade A, Oscar-winning actress these past 5 years, the most of it is certainly fog-talk.

I don't think I fit in the passive/aggressive in your post, mulan. I am assertive and sure most of the time, punctual to the dot, don't think I'm perfect and is always willing to learn etc.

So, is there hope for ME? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />