VS,

You don't really want her reaching out right now. You are feeding her addiction to the needs you meet, while she seeks her other needs met elsewhere. The point, give her some time to be by herself.

You said this stuff is not easy. I thought I would tell you one of my favorite jokes. I have posted it here many times and if I could remember where I would simply copy it, but alas, the mind is going. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

These two old cowboys are sitting on the top railing of a fence watching a rodeo. Got there boots hooked over the second railing just watching the action. They are near the pen for the riders to mount the bulls. This young cowboy is getting on the bull, and his friend is holding the lead trying to steady his friend and calm the bull.

He turns to the cowboy mounting up and says, " You have the championship wrapped up. It is simple. Just stay on this bull 8 seconds and it is all yours, nothing anyone can do to take it away from you."

One old cowboy was listening to this and he turns to the other and says, "The fella is about to learn the difference between simple and easy."

VS, this stuff is really more simple than you realize which is why everyone has been on your case to make a plan and follow it. What everyone also knows is that it is NOT easy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

There is a difference "donca know"? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

God Bless,

JL

JL:

ROTFLMFAO! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I just read the whole thread, and while I was reading, I was thinking what I might post, and had this frontmost in my mind, until I saw your post above: "Hm... I'm going 2 have 2 ask JL 2 tell that joke about the rodeo!" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Vince:

There's something else 2 keep in mind as well:

"What you resist, persists."

Meaning, you keep hammering this affair, giving it power over your every waking moment. You yourself used the phrase "attack this affair". You need 2 rob the A of any power you've given it by blowing it off.

JL's right. Your M was over when the A started. Without kids, and being so bloody youthful (I'm a jealous ol' fart!), you have the obvious beneficial option of cutting your losses and moving on without encumberances like spousal support and child custody battles.

Cutting your losses might still be in order, but at least you're starting, JUST starting 2 see the benefits of getting a good plan A under your belt before you bolt. So, after a period of a few months of doing the best plan A you can, you can consider going 2 plan B or plan D. And all from a position of a little more wisdom and less emotional reactionary behavior.

-ol' 2long

Thanks for your replies JL and 2long.

JL- You are so right and hit the nail on the head, it really is simple, but its not easy. What needs to be done is childsplay, doing it is another story!:)

So I need to give her some space? That makes sense. whatever needs she is not getting met, i am giving her. I could see it the other night when I was there. She still thinks of me as that steady, rock like influence in her life. Whether she wants that back, is another story.

2long - Thanks for your insight! I have made it a conscious effort to no longer bring up the A, even though I know she still longs to be with him and can't be sure he is not accepting her advances, despite him saying he is not, she is saying he won't talk to her and other evidence I have obtained. I have set a deadline of May 1st to sit back an evaluate everything. I'm going to push forward with this plan and see what headway I can make and what positives come from it. At that time, I will determine to continue or to cut bait, or if I even need to give it another few weeks or whatever.

I am going to cool off for awhile, as I will be out of town awhile next week and she wont be able to see me and I will make it a point for her to not hear from me either. I spoke with her briefly today, as I haven't mastered this thing yet. She didn't seem annoyed like she usually does when i call, but it really didn't accomplish anything, other than showing her that I am always available, which I need to get away from. She did ask if/when I was selling our house, which I think is negative. I told her "well, I'm kinda holding off, hoping you are coming home", to which she sighed......I quickly changed subjects and made a joke or two. I asked her what she did last night, and she said 'nothing'. So I told her she should of gave me a call like she said she would (not said mean or father like, but half-laughing). She was like "I said I would call?". So not only did she not remember saying she would call, but she didn't even think about calling. Oh well. I then asked her if she had any plans for the weekend to which she said no and I said well, do you want to hang out? She said "maybe". Then of course I had to lovebust and say "well, its not rocket science babe, either you want to see me or you don't" She just said "I don't know, maybe, we'll see". So now I'm not sure if I should ask her tomorrow or Friday if she wants to do something or just wait and see if she calls me. Anyways, the call today ended with her saying she needed to go to the bathroom and that if I wanted to talk to her, hit her up on Instant Messenger. So it goes.....

I know some of you think I am nuts and over analyzing, but I really want to use this thread as a journal and barometer for my situation, so i have a day-to day account of what is going on, so went he time comes to swim or cut bait, I can make a quality informed decision. Also, by reporting on here, I know I am going to be writing, so it keeps me in-line and wanting to act he right way to her and within my plan so I don';t have to come on here and say "i love busted again and I said this and that and she got mad and we yelled, etc etc"

OK...some thoughts on plan A.

Plan A is about meeting those needs. The idea is to meet the needs that you can. To make yourself a more attractive choice. So that this creates that confusion in your WS's mind that she's not making the right choice by pursuing the OP...that she's standing a chance of losing YOU by continuing what she's doing.

You make yourself the better choice in two major ways.

The first is to meet those needs...so given that, I don't agree with the previous posts telling you to stop meeting them. That's not plan A...that's plan B. You're not at plan B yet...plan A is the setup for plan B IF your spouse doesn't come to their senses during your plan A. So in plan A, you do the emotional needs questionairre, and work hard to meet those needs. To show your WS that you CAN meet them, and that you WANT to meet them.

The second is to make improvements in yourself. Case in point...when she asked what you did last night, your response was "nothing". WRONG ANSWER! Why DIDN'T you do something for yourself last night, while you were waiting on the CHANCE that she'd call?!?! Work out? Go for a walk? Work on the house? Catch a movie? That shows that you're not a doormat. It shows that you're starting that little 'move on'...but you still meet her needs. Think about what qualities attracted to her when you were dating. Start working on reinforcing those qualities in yourself again. Even if she can't see them right at the moment you're doing them, they'll become habit again, and will be the changes to help attract her back to you.

Big note here: WOMEN AREN'T ATTRACTED TO MEN THEY DON'T RESPECT. Read that again!

Does a woman respect a man who sits around the house moping and hoping she'll call? Nope. She respects a man who is capable of doing his own thing, but still wants her too! She respects a man who isn't dependent on her...she respects a man who stands up on his own.

Now...there is the 'other side' of plan A. The 'stick' as they call it around here. And that part is where you continue to put pressure on your WS to end the affair, and establish NC with the OP. That's what exposure is for. That's where you DO tell her how much her actions hurt you. That's where you make it clear to her that you're NOT willing to sit around and allow her to treat you like a doormat. It's where you step up, draw boundaries about what you'll accept in your life, and what you won't accept. And you ENFORCE them. Look for a thread that talks about the 'carrot and stick of plan A'.

Plan B is when you stop meeting her EN's. That's where you go dark on her. And you only do plan B AFTER you've done a great plan A. The intent is two fold. The first is that it forces the OP to meet all of those needs that you were meeting in plan A. Hard for them to do if they're not ready for it. It forces your WS to realize that you meant what you said in your boundaries you established in plan A. It makes them realize that they ARE losing you with their wayward behavior. Again...it makes it clear that you're a man who's willing to stand up for yourself. The other intent here is to distance yourself from your WS. This allows YOU the chance to start healing. To realize you CAN do this on your own. And it removes their opportunity to continue to make the huge withdrawls from your lovebank. It lets you keep some love for them a little longer...to give them that last chance to come back.

If plan B doesn't bring them back, it prepares YOU for plan D...divorce.

The bottom line of all this is simple. Right now, you need to complete your plan A. Meet her needs, show her just how wonderful you can be, make yourself the more attractive choice. Show her what she stands to lose by continuing her wayward behavior, and make her not want to lose you from her life. AND...keep the pressure on her to end her affair. If she's still with OM...make sure that all her friends and family KNOW that you want her back, but she's the one doing the wrong here. EXPOSE.

If all of this fails...in a few weeks or months, depending on your circumstances, you THEN go to plan B. Stop ALL contact with her, make it crystal clear in a plan B letter to her that you would take her back...IF she meets your conditions...and that until she does you'll no longer be part of her life in ANY way at all.

Does all of this make sense to you friend? THIS should be your game plan right now.

VS,

While I agree with what Owl said. I would answer your question about calling her later this week to see if she is going to "hang out", with NO! You have offered, she said maybe. Fine start making alternative plans as Owl said. If she contacts you before plans go into motion or before plans cannot be easily changed, then "hang with her", if not then do your thing.

I made my comments because I think you constantly calling and contacting her is LB'ing her, and in plan A, that is death. Owl is right you meet her needs when you can, but don't keep pressing, or stop living your life.

it is a fine balance point, and you have not quite gotten it all balanced out yet.

Think about it.

God Bless,

JL

Alright,

I hear you both. I actually wasn't waiting around for her to call, I was hanging out with a buddy of mine doing things,and I told her this, so she knows I'm not just moping around. She always asks what I did the past weekend, and I always make sure to tell her i was out with friends, which I do, and she generally seems a little disturbed by it, like "how dare he have a life!". So, I'm not letting her see any moping of any kind or think that I am. I do agree, however, that I am being too available and always willing to be with her. If I happen to to talk to her before the weekend, I will not ask her to do anything, I'll let her ask me, and see if it fits in with what I am doing. I got this figured out, its just a matter of putting it in action.

I believe I have made it pretty clear the past 3 months that the affair is killing me, 100% unacceptable and have exposed it to everyone possible. Work, parents, friends, etc. It hasn't seemed to have an effect, as she is still pursuing him and wants to be with him. But not for long. When she realizes she can lose me and that i am moving on, I think her actions will change. Whenever pressed with divorce, she is against it and whenever it seems as if I am moving on in some way, it makes her uncomfortable...soo...

JL - thanks for checking in as usual, I really appreciate it! It may not seem like I am getting what you are saying, but believe me, I am reading and re-reading what you are saying to pound this into my head. I read this thread a couple times a day to reinforce what ALL of you suggest.

Thanks again everyone!
VS

Also, I just wanted to point out the fact that my wife still has contact with this OM everyday at work. I am under the impression that he has cut off all contact with her besides professional contact, but its contact and hope for her none the less. She goes to lunch with him and others almost every day.

What the point of this post.? well, I have been reading around the site and one commonality is that NC is a necessity for recovery or her to want to try recovery. I feel that as long as she has contact with him, I'm screwed.

Anyway, any thoughts on that? She is unwilling to quit her job and I can't really talk about it, because that would be love busting. I think what I am realizing here, is that the chances of saving my marriage are really very slim, but I am going to give it my best effort none the less. I mean, currently, she rarely calls me, never really wants to see me or asks me to do anything, etc. This is all because of the fact that she is basically in lust with this other man and still see's him daily and talks to him on some level. She also texts him still and tries to see him. I don't know, I just kind of realized all this and feel pretty depressed about my chances of regaining a love with my wife.

ok, thats all for now..rant off...

vince:

That's why you do the best plan A you can, while you can, with the likelihood that you'll need 2 follow with plan B.

She needs 2 get 2 a point where she misses the ENs you are meeting for her, and has 2 try 2 rely on the OM 2 meet those needs. He might ac2ally do that for a time, after he perceives you 2 be out of the way. But he'll tire of it even2ally, especially with good exposure under your belt before you give your W a plan B letter and go dark.

You can't force NC on your W. She needs 2 want it herself. And so, the conditions you'll state in your plan B love letter 2 her will include an insistence that she change jobs.

So, follow the plans as well as you possibly can. Get professional help from one of the Harleys 2 do this. It's cheap compared 2 DV.

-ol' 2long

JL-

I totally agree with you, btw. One part of plan A is DEFINITELY to avoid seeming whiney or clingy!!! And I do agree that VS should back off of initiating contact as much. Part of it is 'pulling back' a little...let her feel that distance, and a lot of times she'll 'move closer' to fill that gap. In other words, if you stop contacting her so much, she'll wonder what's up, she'll begin to miss you a bit, and she'll start initiating contact herself.

Make sense?

Owl - Last week, I didn't contact her from Friday night til Sunday night. She called sat. I didn't answer or call back. She called twice Sunday, I again didn't answer or call back. Finally, around 5 or 6 she text me saying "please call me!". So, you are 100% right int hat, but it is just so hard. I just picked up the phone to call her at work, as I want to know what she did last night, I dialed the number, even let it ring one time, then hung up. Its a daily struggle. I will NOT reach out to her today. She hasn't reached out to me since Monday night, when she asked if I was still coming over, which I did, and I thought went VERY well. I haven't gotten a call from her sense. I emailed her back and forth Tue, me initiating, and the I called her at work yesterday, so I really haven't given this not reaching out all the time a chance. But I'm going to stick strong today. I have to. I really want to call and make plans for the weekend, but truthfully, I know that she will say "I dont know, maybe" and nothing will come of the call, so I am going to resist!

Thanks for checking in and the advice 2long and Owl, I really appreciate it!!!!!!!!!:).

Thanks!
VS

Also,

Next time I am over there and she asks me to stay overnight, should I? I think that sleeping with her (just sleeping) would bring us a little closer. She has asked me every time, but I have left each time, not thinking it is right and giving me a sense of power, the little I have left.

So, what do you guys think? I think it could be a good oppy for me to get some close time with her and be intimate with her, without doing anything sexual.

Thanks,
VS

VS,

First you do know who those two old cowboys are don't you?

2L and JL of course. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Except he is a lot younger. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

If you want to spend the night and she invites, sure. It is your call. You are in plan A right now. When you move to plan B then NO contact means just that.

You are right daily contact with OM will help her avoid withdrawal and it is likely she will not see what she is losing until it is gone. You can do nothing about that. Work the plans, give it YOUR best shot, and you will have far fewer regrets as well as learn a lot.

Finally, do you fish? Consider contact with her like fishing. You have to have a light touch, present the bait just right, and let the fish come to you. You don't just drag the hook through the water and expect to catch a fish.

Now you consider this analogy, consider what 2L, Owl, and I have been saying. You don't avoid contact, you don't drag the hook, and you present the bait for HER to take. Oh! did anyone tell you fishing was EASY? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

You are getting it, and as you learn more, you will see more. This is part of the learning curve, and trust me if you learn from this, whether this marriage makes it or not, you next relationship will be far better.

Hang in there and keep that line wet.

God Bless,

JL

Thanks JL, that is just what I needed. Great analogy too as I do fish!

I just feel a little down today and like I am fighting an uphill, losing battle, with no end in sight, but I will not give up! Every conversation/email we have had this week has been great (ie no love busting, laughing, light conversation), but almost all initiated by me. I hope that changes, but with the weekend coming up, I doubt it will. I'm a little discouraged that she hasn't called or emailed me since our night together Monday night,as I have said many times before, it went really well. We both genuinely enjoyed each others company for the first time since all this happened.

Anyway, I just need to get through today and fight on tomorrow. I just want this to happen so fast, yet I know it wont and am most likely sure it's not going to happen at all. But I will not give up!

Thanks again,
VS

VS,

Quit dragging the hook. Keep still and let her find it. You also said something I am going to 2x4 you on.
Quit fighting. It is not an uphill battle. It is life and it happens. Your goal my friend is to come out of this better, smarter, and in the end happier than when you went in. I realize that you feel that she is your happiness. All of us feel this way about the person we marry and love. But I can tell you that YOU are your happiness and there are plenty of women out there. I am not saying you shouldn't feel the loss, nor should you just give up.

But, if you go fishing some days you get a bite and some days you don't. But, if you KNOW there are more fish in the stream/ocean you come back don't you? Well, VS it is really like this.

I know it is hard for you to distance yourself from all of the drama, but really there is not much drama is there? She does not call often, and perhaps less than you would like. But, if you will be patient, quiet, but prepared you just might get that nibble you are seeking. You might not. The information here gives you a great opportunity, but like fishing there are no quarentees.

So don't give up, but do give up fighting. You need to be cool, calm, focused and patient, she is one lost soul right now. Until she finds her soul, she won't be worth much.

Hang in there.

God Bless,

JL

JL - I hear ya. I'm trying very hard to stay calm and focused and not so up and down, but right now, its impossible. I have been thinking about us so much since our Monday night together, that its really got me down that she hasn't called me all week or emailed. Whatever, I understand that it is going to come and go, but right now it seems as its always going and never coming.

If I take the last 3 months (since EA d-day), there have been almost NO signs of any positivity, which makes it so hard for me to keep going on this. She has basically told me that she wants me to give up and told her mother that "I have no plan right no. My plan is no plan". Which tells me she really doesn't care about us, oh that and the fact that she hasn't emailed or called me all week.

So, my next question is, what do I do about this weekend? I haven't called her today or emailed and have not heard from her. Do I call her tomorrow and ask her to go out this weekend? Or do I lay low all weekend and wait for her to call? I have never been in the 'dating game' as I have been with my WW since college. So any advice on how this works would be appreciated. I want to call her so bad, but I know not calling her is the right thing for now. Right now I feel that everyday that goes by that I'm not in her life, it reduces my chances of winning her back. I just want her back so badly and I want it now! (little kid voice).

So, any advice on how to handle the next 3 days from you studs or ladies out there?

Thanks,
VS

VS,

I would say don't call, and don't wait for her call. What do you like to do? Go fishing? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Then go. Go visit people you enjoy and enjoy their company. The fact that she has no plan is really pretty good. She has no idea what she is doing and it will take awhile for her to figure it out.

You not hearing from her is keeping you love bank full right? Who is thinking about her all of the time? That would be you right? So rather worry about this rejoice that you still love her and can give her time. You are looking at this all wrong VS.

This is an OPPORTUNITY and you need to seize it. It is an opportunity to learn more. It is an opportunity to grow, and it is an opportunity to find out if your W is really the right woman to spend the rest of your life with. You two don't have children, you are young...very young. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> And frankly you don't want to spend your life with a woman that is not certain she wants to be with you.

You are really not the one being tested my friend...she is. You are just getting an OPPORTUNITY to learn, grow, and make sure YOU are in the right marriage.

I don't know much VS, but right now I KNOW you are in the wrong marriage, and I think you do as well. You are hangin on because you have hope that she will grow and decide to make this the right marriage, but she has alot of growing to do. Give her the OPPORTUNITY to do this.

So don't panic, don't worry, and learn, learn to enjoy yourself, living with yourself, your friends, your interests in life, and how relationships are built and nutured.

Don't blow this OPPORTUNITY by spending all of your time worrying about her, worry that you don't make the most of this.

Please think about this, in 30+ more years when you are my age you will realize that this may well be the best thing that could have happened to you. It happened to me when I was in my mid-20's and the result was that in my 30's I married the RIGHT woman and have been married to her for over 30 years.

Trust me on this if you don't trust me on anything else.

God Bless,

JL

Well, another day , another no call. I didn't email or call her yesterday, which is a first in awhile. I hadn't not contacted her in anyway for a day in a LONG time. Not sure what is happening here. She hasn't called or emailed me really at all this week, only when I initiate. Getting pretty down about it, but I'm just going on about my life. I have plans both nights this weekend and stuff to do all day sat and sun, so I wont be 'waiting around for contact". Was just hoping I would of heard something by now. I have a strong suspicion OM is fulfilling her needs currently or another man if not the original OM, but again, just speculation.

The show must go on, and will.

JL- I do trust you and take everything you and others say to heart. I understand and agree with what you all are saying, its just hard to get he heart in-line with the brain. Going to take some time there. I do agree I am young and am going to have many other chance at love, as everyone around me tells em the same thing. I'm not sure why i am so obsessed with saving this marriage. My therapist believes it could be because of my fears of being alone and an unknown future. I like the 'known quantity' and fear the whole courting process and that i have to do it again, rather than embracing it, which I should. Its hard to make yourself be a certain way. I was programmed by God to be a creature of comfort and always having things in place in planned. Change and uncertainty scares the crap out of me. That is something we are now going to focus on in therapy instead of my WW and that situation.

Take care and pray for me this weekend-
VS

Vince,
I know where you are...I was an addict too (maybe still am but do not tempt myself). I was an addict of positive feedback from my WW. I felt like it wasn't worth the effort to PlanA if I didn't get instant gratification. That's what we addicts seek, instant gratification. I am not sure when, but I had an epiphany, PlanA is about taking control and executing you plan, not waiting around to react to the WW.

So does your PlanA/PlanB include plans to recreate your own energy? Do you schedule rewards for yourself? What do you like to do? What makes you feel powerful? What makes you feel happy? Start throwing out some ideas and make some plans for yourself. You'll feel more rewarded. There are also benefits for when you do interact with your WW:
1)You feel and act more confident
2)You have interesting stuff to talk about while you avoid M talk
3)You create mystery about yourself. It's not exciting that you are sitting around moping, but doing some rock climbing is intersting
4)If your interests are physical, you end up getting fit and strong. Women like the buff guys, don;t let them trick us into thinking they are all about thoughts and feelings.
5)You meet other people and can fill those lonely times with new friends
6)It starts to look like you are moving on without the WW. this has a tendency to light a fire under them.
7)If you are busy with YOUR stuff you are not smothering the WW...

am I repeating myself? I cna;t see the whole message anymore. Anyway, share with the board your stories of what activities you do, we all like a good story.

Vince,

You want a reaction from WW. The three biggest reactions I've gotten from my WW are as follows.

1. One afternoon at the house I told her about mud riding at the hunting camp all night until we finally found a hole we couldn't make it through and the three stooges act we put on to get out of it. I got genuine smiles and laughter out of her. We then had pleasant conversation.

2. I went to a BDay party for adults at HER friend's house and had a blast and spent the night. That one she was upset about, but a huge rise non the less. (Friend is married with kids and all were present so nothing like that)

3. At DS's BDay party a neighbor was flirting her a$$ off with me and WW got extremely jealous and even came and stood between us at one point. I think neighbor did it on purpose, but I've never brought it up so I really don't know.

4. WW calls me from the Hospital where she is being held for a suicide attempt and all she wants to talk about is my boating trip with DS. She lit up for those few short minutes.

So there, the biggest reactions I've gotten from WW were because of MY personal life without her.

Live your life dude, she will notice. It doesn't mean she'll come back, but I promise you she will notice that a whole lot more than you chasing after her.

Oh yeah, in the process your pain will subside, you will see how good life can be without her, and you will get to the point where you're OK with the outcome regardless of what that is.

That is power and control my friend.

GameFace - Right now I don't feel like doing anything but balling up in the corner and crying for hours. But, when I am 'normal' I used to work out like crazy, play sports, walk, run and ride my bike in the neighborhood, hangout with friends and play video games or go to a bar to watch the game, travel, camp, fish, etc.. The thing is, most of what I did for the past 8 years was with my wife. We did almost everything together, so it is hard for me to find myself wanting to do anything, because it makes me think of her. I know what I need to do, and hopefully I will start soon. I bought a bunch of workout supplements a month ago that are still sitting there waiting for me to start taking them and start working out again.

BC - I just feel that nothing will get a rise out of my WW has she is so far removed from me. she truly could careless I believe what i do. Now, that doesn't mean I am going to give up my plan, but its just how I feel. I am making sure I NEVER let her see or hear of me down, moping, alone or anything. I am always going to make sure she thinks I am having a good time and that she is not the center of my world anymore. Maybe that will wake her up, I don't know.

I know I need to move on with my life, and I keep saying I am going to, but I feel that I am trapped by this. Like, if I truly was moving on, I wouldn't care if she didn't call and be on the verge of tears right now. In the past, nothing phased me, i was such a strong, confident person. i can't believe how I let this control and ruin me. I know there are two paths I can go down here and I need to do everything I can to stay on the right one or get on the right one!

Thanks for the replies...everyone helps!