Right now, that counseling will still likely only be good for you, Vince. She's still in the throes of affair/withdrawl...so she's not going to participate, and if she does, it'll probably be useless for her to do so anyway.

BUT...the knowledge YOU gain could be tremendous.

Owl:

Agreed. But getting an appointment will likely take a couple weeks anyway, even if he calls now. And they'll want 2 work with him alone for a while, if they ever do work with his W.

-ol' 2long

Makes good sense to me, 2long.

OK. Everything noted above and I will be calling the Harleys once I make a decision on whether or not this is savable. I really appreciate everyones comments and advice.

Here's my question/sitch in a nutshell.

Wife tells me she has feelings for another man, then sleeps with him, pursues him for 3 months and manages to sleep with him 3-4 more times(she flat out told me). WW shows no remorse, regret or anything towards me during these three months. She moved out 40 days after telling me she 'had feelings'. She says he has nothing to do with this and the problem is me and she doesn't want to be married to me anymore and has saying this for three months straight. There has been absolutely no positive movement towards any kind of reconciliation, I'm 30, we were married under 2 years (together 8 years,lived together 5 years) and have no kids.

I am assuming most of her actions are because of the A (fog). But she is very convincing when she says that we are not right together and that she doesn't want to be with me.

So, is this worth saving? Or is the reconnection/recovery effort and the trust/faith/rest of my life knowing what she did, going to be easier than just cutting bait now and dealing with extreme hurt, loneliness and uncertainly short term?

Quite a quandary, huh?

I know its up to me to decide, but what do the experts think?

I think that it's up 2 you 2 decide.

Is it savable? Yes. Almost definitely.

Your timeline of events, behaviors and statements from your W is all quite typical, and nothing 2 put any stock in whatsoever.

You could even say 2 her, next time you talk 2 her and she says

"We are not right 2gether and I don't want 2 be with you",

something like

"I'm sorry you feel that way. I feel differently."

and end the conversation.

Of course, if you decide that you agree and you don't want 2 reconcile (your call), then you know what 2 say.

NOTHING.

Nothing now, nothing when she calls, texts, or emails, and certainly nothing of your own initiative.

If you choose not 2 reconcile, have your lawyer talk 2 her lawyer.

Still, your call.
-ol' 2long

Vince wrote:
=============================================
So, is this worth saving? Or is the reconnection/recovery effort and the trust/faith/rest of my life knowing what she did, going to be easier than just cutting bait now and dealing with extreme hurt, loneliness and uncertainly short term?

Quite a quandary, huh?

I know its up to me to decide, but what do the experts think?
=============================================

I'm no expert, but let me ask you a few questions.

Do you want to invest 2+ years attempting to recover a relationship with an uncertain outcome?

Do you eventually want to have children?

Would you want children with this woman?

God bless,
Gimble

2long - as always - appreciate your insight. I really look forward to your posts and advice. You seem very long in the tooth (in a good way - very wise). I'm just a young idiot trying to find my way in this messed up world. Trying to do the right things.

Gimble - Great questions. Questions I do not have the answers to.....yet! Before I would say yes to all of them, even up until a month or so ago...now, I'm not so sure. There has been some serious damage here. It seems to me, most of the time when an A is discovered, the WS is immediately apologetic or remorseful and tries in some way to save their marriage. My WW did the exact opposite. She tried harder to have the A. She moved out to continue the A. She did everything right in front of my face, not caring if I found out or knew or anything. She would admit that she was going over there or was there. No problem with it. Like "too bad, FU".

Let me tell you all little bit about my WW before all this went down (D-DAY). Besides the fact that she was/is beautiful, intelligent, thoughtful, caring, extremely loyal and nurturing, she always has had a very difficult time recognizing faults and dealing with ANY criticisms. I can count on one hand how many times she has apologized to me in 8 years (lots of fights and what nots - just like everyone else). Whenever she has done something wrong, it is always someone else's fault. She has never been able to take responsibility for her actions or words. Nothing she does is wrong and she believes someone else or something else is always to blame for anything wrong that happens that has to do with her.

I feel that in order to 'recover', she will have to be willing to give 150%. Always giving me the benefit of the doubt, always be willing to let me call her 100 times when she goes out, allowing me to never trust her for awhile, bend over backwards for me in every way, counseling, recognizing what she did was wrong one very single level, working endlessly for my trust, etc. I just don't see her doing that. I can already see it in her that she wouldn't be able to recover from this in a way I would need, in a way any BS would need.. She would want a more 'forgive and forget' approach and move on, and forget this ever happened. For example If still hurt from this 6 months from now, she won't understand why or have sympathy for me. She has already said 'you mean you haven't forgiven me yet?" - awhile back, before I knew it was an affair and thought it was a one time thing (before MB!).

Through all this, she has told anyone would listen that she was very unhappy in her marriage, I treated her like dirt, we are not meant to be, etc. etc. I know, fog talk. But she is the kind of person that believes her own lies and would be brainwashed by this. She truly has forgotten all the good times we shared over the 8 years. All she remembers is the bad. I can assure you our relationship wasn't perfect, but god darn it, I gave this woman everything. I sacrificed so much for us, and she just fails to recognize it. That hurts me almost as much as what has happened the last 3+ months (ok maybe not, but close!).

So, why do I continue to post and even engage myself in this daily battle for pain and suffering? I don't know. I think I may have some mental issues about myself, my self esteem, my fear of the future, my fear of loneliness, etc. I know everyone has those fears, but I am beginning to feel mine may be a little more sever. Its been almost 4 months since this started to go down, and I am still walking around like a lost puppy dog, crying, can't get a plan together, crying, doing the bare minimum to survive each day, etc. I am seeing a therapist and on anti-deps, but they don't really help. I do feel that I am not as emotionally hurt as when this all started, but why would someone, especially as young and successful as I am (let me have my moment <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />), continue to put myself through this for a woman I married a mere 17 months ago? Whats wrong with me? Argh....

Anyway, thanks for listening -
VS

Hi, Vince.

Quote:
==============================================
So, why do I continue to post and even engage myself in this daily battle for pain and suffering? I don't know. I think I may have some mental issues about myself, my self esteem, my fear of the future, my fear of loneliness, etc. I know everyone has those fears, but I am beginning to feel mine may be a little more sever. Its been almost 4 months since this started to go down, and I am still walking around like a lost puppy dog, crying, can't get a plan together, crying, doing the bare minimum to survive each day, etc. I am seeing a therapist and on anti-deps, but they don't really help. I do feel that I am not as emotionally hurt as when this all started, but why would someone, especially as young and successful as I am (let me have my moment ), continue to put myself through this for a woman I married a mere 17 months ago? Whats wrong with me? Argh....
==============================================

You sound perfectly normal to me. You are suffering from severe emotional shock. That's what happens in these situations. So don't be hard on yourself. She made the bad choice, not you. Even if you were a rotten companion, her choice to have an affair is 100% her doing.

Most men have a very difficult time with emotional pain. When I was growing up, my father's instructions to me for every kind of pain, both physical and emotional was "walk it off son". In real life, that doesn't really prepare you to deal with extremes.

You have to choose what to do, but I would advise you to simply disengage from your wife's "stuff", and start taking care of yourself. Exercise, EAT (that's important), and start finding things to do that don't involve her. Any kind of desperate, grabby, or needy behavior is right out. Just don't engage in it.

Create some good distance from her, then re-examine your options. Have a look from an outsiders perspective and think about what you see.

The first thing most humans do when someone snatches a ball out of their hands is to chase the snatcher down and try to get the ball back. The snatcher becomes far less interested in the ball when there is no chase and the game sours.

Your reaction of desperation and pain is normal, but you can make a choice not to chase the ball. You may not get the ball back, but it will surely lessen your frustration.

You spoke of your wife's entitled behavior pre-affair. Have a look at the second line of my sig and let me know what you think.

God bless,
Gimble

Hi Vince

though I have read your painful progress I have not commented because most of what I would have said was said to you by people like JL, OWL and others.

I'm coming from the other side I guess being a FWS and just wanted to say that NOW really is the time if ever, that you speak to the Harleys, I mean DO NOT put it off. Your WW is now on the cusp of going one way or the other, as are you I am guessing.

So talk to the experts, find out if YOU really want your M and if so what you can do.

If you want it then you MUST follow the plan you work out with the Harleys or its probably over red rover. I feel very strongly that A kill a marriage and that you do not so much 'recover' as build a new M. Its what I have done with my loving H and I feel SO lucky to have him in my life. He really is my hero in so many ways.

The choice is more than likely yours no matter what rubbish she says to you, others or herself. The clues are the way she says things like "I've done too much etc etc etc to go back to you". You will probably find over time that those statements become open questions rather than statements to persuade herself she was right.

How you respond at this time is where the Harleys are so good because its from experience over and over in such cases. Take a deep breath and do it, contact the Harley's.

So its Friday. Yesterday my WW said we would hangout tonight....now I get the "tomorrow night, take it or leave it" I said I had plans. Maybe Sunday then. I'm not going to let her call the shots on me anymore....And she took another day off of work to grieve from her lover telling her he has a girlfriend..hahahahaha

More updates later, I'm too ticked off to write anymore than that.

Now, and while you're waiting for your first appointment with one of the Harleys, would be a good time 2 disconnect the phone and stop reading emails and text messages.

Let her fester in her withdrawal juices for a bit.

-ol' 2long

Brother,

First, I feel your pain, but I also envy you.

My advice, bail out. This is a disaster of a woman who is very immature. I went through a lot of what you went through and can relate to your pain.

The differnece between you and I is that I have three children, which makes things much more complicated. I have motivation to work things out and reconcile. You don't.

Trust me when I tell you this. You've lost nothing. She's not worth it and if you got back together with her you will forever wonder if she'll do it again.

Let her go and count your blessings that you don't have any children with her and are still young. Otherwise you would have a woman who has would be a terrible example for your kids.

My dad was an adulterer and my mom forgave him. He was good for 18 years and then took a giant dump on our family. You don't want her repeating this when you have 3 kids that are grown up and get to witness their home being destroyed.

I know you don't want to because you love her, but what kind of marriage could you possibly have if you get back together with her?

Why would you possibly want someone with no regard for vows back?

Divorce her and then get counceling so you don't meet anyone like her and repeat the same mistake.

Your challenge is to not repeat meeting someone like your W and find someone who values morals and vows and God and who understands that marriage takes hard work.

Your challenge is to identify the characteristics of your W and if she is an archetype you're attracted to. Once you have that nailed down you can filter those kind of women out of your future.

Find someone that values morals and vows and believes in integrity.

Then take a look at yourself and see what you did that contributed to your wife's unhappiness and find ways to mitigate that for your future wife.

My plan is to seriously ask my wife at least once every six months or a year if she is happy and what I can do to be a better husband. That way I have a leg to stand on if she ever claims that she told me.

Many women have a habit of hinting and hoping you "get it" rather than just coming out and saying, "hey, this thing you're doing is driving me nuts and it will destroy our marriage if you don't correct it."

Mine did that only once, didn't like my answer, and then used my response as justification for ending our marriage. It was the first time she brought it up in a way that was, "this needs to be fixed or its over". At first I responded defensively, but I wanted to talk about it afterwards. I then took action on her request, but it was too late. The conversation itself was all she needed to hear and she decided it was over.

It's a conversation that would never have happened if I had better communication with her and was able to address her needs sooner. Lesson learned.

So if you get in the habit of asking regularly, then you can keep better tabs on your W's happiness and she will hopefully see that you are concerned about her happiness in the marriage and that you care about meeting her EN's. I will do this with my future W, whoever she may be.

That's my two cents, but the decision is yours.

What will you be able to live with?

There are only two justifications for divorce in the bible. One is adultery and the other is being married to a non believer. The rest is a bit fuzzy. God expects you to forgive your spouse but leaves the decision ultimately to you.

If you're not religious, then it is a non issue. Cut your losses and run and cutoff your contact. Move away to where your family lives and leave her to flounder on her own. She made the decision for you when she opened her legs to another man.

If you had kids I would tell you otherwise and would encourage you to weather this storm for them. But you don't, so be happy that you are young when this happened and run the other way and don't look back.

VS,

If you ignore any or all that I am about to say it is fine with me it is your life. But, DO NOT IGNORE THIS: Call the Harleys and get an appointment.

Now, I will offer you my thoughts based on your last post.

You said
Well 2 out of 5 isn't bad. It is clear she is not honest, she is not caring, she is not loyal, and she is not nurturing. Think about this very carefully. You have data now. You also forgot to add selfish into your list.

Now often WS's will revert back to themselves after the A, but you are young, no children, and in a new marriage. Even Dr. Harley admitted that if his W, Joyce, had an affair and there were no kids, he would probably divorce her.


Really this isn't so bad IF she doesn't have many faults and is not wrong much. I will tell you that lots of fights is NOT normal in a good marriage. It shows a lack of control and a lack of communications, not to mention perhaps very different ways of doing things and looking at the world.

VS, this is the behavior of a very immature person. Frankly, she may not be mature enough to be married to at this point.

You then said
Son, if you think it will take that to recover, you might as well divorce her NOW. You at best will get 100%, and you had better expect to give a 100% yourself. That is all there is. Giving 100+% is just a figment of peoples imagination. As for the rest, not a chance, until she matures and you mature. You cannot expect her to do what you are saying. But, you can expect a lot more than you have apparently gotten.



Excellent question and the answer is?????

VS, you have this all wrong in many ways. You should remain married to your W because YOU want to, because it is value added to your life, because you see her strengths and you can look back on your history with her and see that the future will have many opportunities.

She will NOT make you happy, only you and your perspective on life can do that. You cannot make her happy, only she controls this. She has rewritten history; this is very normal. But, frankly you only have 17 months of marriage for a history, and 4 of those have now been spent dealing with her affair.

You have to pick your own course. You can plan A for a few more months when you get the chance, and/or you can start to make your own future. Frankly you can do both at the same time and you should. Her family knows about the A right, her friends know about the A right? Once exposure is over, you need to sit back and set your own course.

Frankly, at your age I would file for divorce without a second thought. IF she came, apologized, and offered a plan to rebuild the marriage, I might consider stopping the divorce. I in fact did something similar a little younger than you. I still think of that girl 40 years later, but I do NOT regret making the decisions I did.

You need to get to the place where you will not regret whatever decision you make. I don't mean you LIKE the decision, only that you won't regret it. Hence I strongly suggest YOU call the Harley's and talk to them before you make any decision. They are very good, they have a lot of experience, and it will help YOU make a decision you won't regret although you may HATE making it.

I will leave you with this definition of a child and an adult.


I mention this to you because your decision really is about sorting out what you want and what you need, and then moving on from there.

Hope this helps.

God Bless,

JL

VS...

Hi, this is my very first post to you, but I wanted to share a bit and hope that something that I say may help some...

I too agree that your wife is very immature, but I do believe that can change...I also agree that this decision has to be solely yours...Please do call the Harleys for guidance, it will be the best money that you ever spend...

I do NOT agree with this quote from MustangDriver...



I would just like to point out that infidelity is a human condition and one that we are ALL susceptible to...Dr. Harley certainly recognizes and says that...A failure to recognize that we are ALL capable of following sinful temptation of this sort is what gets people into the WS role in the first place...

I am a FWS that DID value morals, God and integrity...I understood that marriage took hard work...I still do value and appreciate that...What I failed to recognize was my own vunerablities and I failed to protect my weaknesses...I believed I would NEVER cheat, that it wasn't even possible for someone like me to do so...And then I allowed someone else to meet my emotional needs and fill my lovebank...I can promise you that I thought adultery was despicable-I was raised "right" as they say...I never saw it coming to be honest...little by little I moved my own boundaries and at first I wasn't even conscious of it...by the time I became conscious of it, I was hooked...

The difference in me now? My boundaries are cast iron when it comes to the opposite sex...I KNOW how easy it is for an affair to begin, and I am vigilant...So is Mr. W...But I can tell you that we were both really clueless before all of this...We didn't know an emotional need from a hole in the ground...We believed that men and women could be "just friends"...Our liberal attitudes left our marriage wide open and we were completely in the dark about that...Hey, we come from a generation where men and women were platonic roommates, why couldn't they be just the best of buds, right? WRONG...

My affair was with my old high school/college boyfriend...When he looked me up and emailed me, I REALLY thought it was "no big deal"-though I will admit to being flattered by it at the time...Mr. W also thought it was harmless...In fact, the day it happened I called Mr. W to tell him about it-why wouldn't I? I'd always told him EVERYTHING...I told him about the phone calls too...Again, why not? They were absolutely on the up and up in the beginning...Just catching up on all that had occured in the 13 years since we'd seen each other...I told OM what a wonderful man I was married to, about our daughter and our successful businesses-the whole nine...But then OM figured out that I was alone a lot-Mr. W worked a lot-he brought that up and I began to share that that did bother me, and then the floodgate opened about ANY grievance that I had in my marriage-no matter how tiny or how common...and so began my dangerous treck into the infidelity waters...

I too did what your wife is doing VS by crying on Mr. W's shoulder regarding OM dumping me and that KILLS me to remember...I am SHOCKED and HORRIFIED at my behavior from that time...Remorse seems too small a word to describe how I feel about what kind of pain I put my dear husband through...Transparency? OMG, you have no idea...I constantly come up with ways to prove to Mr. W how dedicated that I am to him and our marriage...I want him to KNOW that...There is nothing that I wouldn't do to show him...I think of things that he laughs at actually-stuff he never would have thought of...I tell you this to let you know that it IS possible...Yes, we do have a child, but Mr. W has told me that he would have wanted recovery with me even if we hadn't...That, of course, was up to him...I am so blessed that he chose to reconcile-I sure didn't deserve it...We are coming up on 2 years since dday, and we are very much in love with each other and I suspect that the love we share will only grow deeper as the years pass...Just wanted to let you that it CAN happen if that is what you want...

I wish you peace and healing as you make this very important decision in your life...

Mrs. W

AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

Sorry, I had to get that out.

This is one thing that frustrates me about MB. Is ALL the advice to bail out, your WS is immature, do you want to have children with this woman, etc...

Immature? NO FREAKIN' KIDDING!!! All WS's are acting and being immature. Yea, that is a newsflash. Thanks for that one, brightsparks.

No children? Bail out. Have only been married a short while? Bail out. You sound like my in-laws, who pretty much abandoned me during this whole thing.

The question I see often asked, and was asked of me, do you want the your WS to be the mother of my children. WHAT THE HECK kind of question is that? Of course I don't want my WS to be the mother of my children. I want my W to be the mother of my children.

The point is, why is it only ok to try and put the effort into saving a marriage if only there are children involved and why the advice to cut and run if there isn't?

In my early days of the bull-plop being inflicted upon me, the advice I got was the same. Screw you.

VS, if you want to save your marriage, go for it. Do all you can for it. You have my support 100%.
You have the tools...USE THEM.

'Food:


This isn't rocket surgery. In truth, the decision 2 rebuild or bolt is there whether the M is short and with no kids, or long with a herd of kids and grandkids.

The decision is more difficult with long term marriages and kids, but it's no less simple.

vince: What time is your appointment?
-ol' 2long

Dogfood wrote:
=====================================
This is one thing that frustrates me about MB. Is ALL the advice to bail out, your WS is immature, do you want to have children with this woman, etc...
=====================================

Since you referenced my post to Vince several times in your message, please quote me where I suggested that Vince "bail out".

Vince SHOULD be asking himself serious questions about his situation.


Gimble

DF...*GULP* I surely hope that your response was not to me even though you replied to my reply...If so, I would ask that you re-read my post and realize that you misread it...My message was intended to give hope...

Mrs. W

I haven't even read your post, so get over yourself. But, I agree that every BS needs to ask his or herself serious questions. No doubt.

It seems to be the central them if no kids and short term is to bail out. I just wonder why that is the attitude?
We come here looking for help and advice to save our M.

Yea, there are some cases where it isn;t going to happen. That is true and I acknowledge that. But, we won't know until we try.

It wasn't directed to anyone in particular. Just venting.
I get tired of the "just bail" advice I see get thrown around here.