Well, I made it. Today is Thursday and this is the day she said she would pick up the dog and be back from vacation. I have not contacted her once. And frankly, it feels good. She did text me the other night asking about dog, not saying hi or anything, then called last night, but I was out. she left a message "hey, call me back, bye." So lifeless and just non-interested. So, I guess this trip really didn't clear her head at all. What a surprise!

So now the real work starts again. WW is back in town and Vince needs to work his plan. I have really grown the last week and feel a lot stronger and more sure of myself. I know I can do this. What I am not sure of, is if i want to save my marriage. I really grieved the loss of my marriage the last week, and realized it truly over. Its almost like the last 4 months I just could not accept what was happening and tried everything I could to stop it.

I'm going to need your support the next week or so...

VS

VS, remember the link I previously sent you? Under another handle?

That week I spent did wonders for me to be able to face my ex with strength and not weakness.

Please, please, please go get that book. It is a short read and contains so many nuggets of knowledge that will really help you in your healing.

Trust me on this.

It is sad that you have to grieve your marriage, but it is a major step to do so. To accept that it is really dead is a huge thing.

You can back away and take a more objective look. Do you really wish to be with someone that has done this? What will your marriage REALLY look like if she comes back? Is THAT marriage what you want?

Having this separation and perspective puts the ball in your court. Now YOU decide if you want to see her or not and not the other way around. It is empowering to someone that has been hurt, manipulated, betrayed.

Get the book. Execute the plan. Meet her as a man, with strength and resolve.

Broken, I received the book yesterday, which is good timing, since I just finished SAA. I really spent the last week reflecting and grieving my marriage. I know now that nothing will ever be the same. It was almost like before that I was unwilling to accept it. I have accepted it.

Update on the sitch: She called twice Wed. night when she got home but I wasn't around to answer the phone. She called Thur. morning on her way to work and told me she was going to get the dog after work. I told her I would keep him another day and that she should come over after work on Friday and we can do dinner and a movie and go to the dog park sat. morning. It might have been a little forward, but I didn't beg or plea, just through it out there and she said "OK". I said "you don't have to you know...". She said "I know." So, we'll she if she comes over and hangout and stays over night. If she doesn't, no biggie, I actually have other plans anticipating her not to come or stay. She said she would call me later, but never did. The main reason for keeping the dog an extra day was so she could unpack, relax and get stuff together Thurs. night without having to neglect the dog. The bad thing about all this is I got re-attached to the dog I got at 7 weeks old a year ago and spent thousands of dollars and thousands of hours training on. I love this dog, and quite frankly, he is great to have around. You dog owners know what I am talking about. I work from home, so I am alone A LOT, so it was nice to have 'mans best friend' around for a week. It was very therapeutic. He was by my side during the worst of it back in January, before she took him and moved out. I would cry wit him for hours and he laid by my side, always there for me....weird, I know. But dog owners will relate. Something about dogs and their loyalty and unconditional love. So anyway, its going to be real hard to see him go. I love having him around.

I will update you all tomorrow on how today goes, as my sitch is really in crucial time right now....I appreciate if you would advise and support me through the difficult coming months.....

I appreciate your strong words brokendreams, as they help me keep the resolve to stay on task......hopefully others will join in..I'm going to need it...

VS

Well, we had plans for Friday night, she was going to come over after work and go out to dinner, stay the night, then go to the dog park Sat. and then leave sat afternoon. Kinda like a 24 hour period of when we were married. I would be lying if I said I wasn't looking forward to it. Well, I got 'the call' at 6pm saying 'i don't feel like hanging out'. So, that was that. I spilled a few tears for the first time in a week. It just really bothered me. So, I still am watching the dog for her, and she has been home since Wed night. I told her I would keep him an extra day so she could relax thur. night after her long trip and get some things done. I'm almost certain she went out that night, but didn't ask.

She had no real plans last night, just didn't want to come here. That speaks volumes. I was thinking that after she got back from her trip that she would really start trying to see what we could save. From what I know, she hasn't been with OM since Feb. 23rd, and he told her finally to bug off and that he has a GF about 3 weeks ago. He quit his job (where my WW works) 2 weeks ago. So, I really thought he was out of the picture and we can begin to work on this, but now I am not so sure. I don't know if I should ask her or not.

Needless to say, I am very disappointed and don't know what to do. She said "we'll hangout tomorrow night, I promise"....but she always says that and it never comes true.We'll see what tonight brings. I'm also a little disappointed in myself for getting so emotional last night after I talked to her. I really broke down pretty good, which i haven't done in awhile. I thought the past week I had gotten stronger and truly grieved the loss of my marriage, but I guess it takes longer than a week. I need to make sure I don't fall int he same trap as before of constantly calling her and what not. I need to keep it together and work my plan. And I have been. I didn't love bust or anything when she broke plans. I just said I was upset that she wasn't coming over that it was kinda not nice to break plans with someone 30 minutes after you were supposed to hangout, and on a Friday night. I did not have back-up plans and sat alone in the house all night.

I'm sure she knew all day she wasn't coming over, as I text'd her in the morning saying 'remember to bring stuff for tonight...'. She didn't respond. When she called to break plans I asked her if she had packed a bag 'no, i didn't have time. I'm just real tired and I don't want to hangout with you. I'm going to stay home with my friends". We'll see. I'll bet you $1000 that she went out last night.

More to come....I think I wore out my welcome here......no one wants to give VS advise anymore...and now I'm finally ready to listen!

VS

You are coming on too strong and being smothering. Don't act needy, and don't try to pin her down or make her 'promise' that she'll spend time with you. She will be with you when she chooses, and it's your job to make that an attractive option.

Be strong, be flexible, make plans that don't include her, even if it's just to go see a movie. Practice saying, hey, I'm busy, how about I give you a call another time. Then, when you call, if she hems and haws, just let it go. Tell her to call you if she wants to do anything. In the meantime, make other plans.

What would she say if you told her you were keeping the dog? It sounds like you're really attached.

It's okay to break down and cry, but you just can't complain to her about breaking her plans with you. Just make it seem like you found something else to do. Next time she wants to make plans, I might suggest telling her you are busy. This is a dance that takes a long time to play out. Patience, young jedi. You'll get the hang of this after a while.

Hi-

I definitely did NOT make a big deal about her breaking the plans to her. I did, however, make a big deal to myself after I got off the phone. The only thing I said to her was "it would of been nice if you told me a little earlier. OK, I'll talk to you tomorrow.

Well, she called around noon today and ended up hanging up on me because I asked her if she ended up going out Thursday night, the night I offered to keep the dog another day so she could unpack and get stuff together after her trip, to which she said she 'went to a party'. I told her I thought that was disrespectful that I tried to do something nice for her and she goes out instead of what my intentions were. I felt like she took advantage of me, big time. I didn't really love bust, and didn't let it go much further. she said "well, I have to go, I'll call you later".

So we'll see what happens.

VS

IMHO, I wouldn't accommodate to her schedule. If she flaked on you, was it because it was your idea vs her? The WS' tend t/b very controlling and when they feel they are losing that control (doesn't matter the reason), they will pull the rug out from under you and in their feeble mind set themselves 'on top' by making you do things according to their schedule.

If you see no valid reason for the rescheduled 'date', then say no. Go do something else.

Btw, watching the dog was a nice gesture but it doesn't seem like it was appreciated. See what I mean?

The nicer you are, the more mean she treats you. She is still a WS at heart. Arrrgh.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> Who is trying to rip you to shreds in the process.

L.

VS,

Sorry I haven't written. It's the weekend and I've been out.

First off, keep the dog. Why give it back?

VS, seriously, you need to start thinking of yourself. What do YOU want?

I gave everything up because she played me very well. I gave up the nice furniture, the computer, the dog, the HDTV, the brand new car. I kick myself for letting her get away with it.

Start standing up for what you want. She has shown you zero respect.

You would seriously freak her out if you quit answering her calls.

Time to be strong. Read that book. It helps a lot.

Your wife is dead, VS, this person only looks like her.

Go watch "Fight Club". Good guy flick and a good movie to speak to how you feel right now. It's about hitting rock bottom and getting back up.

I'm really sorry. I know exactly how you feel. You're not alone. It gets better.

You haven't hit rock bottom because you still have hope. Losing all hope is freedom. Losing hope that she will "get it" will free you.

The hope you need to focus on now is that there are very many beautiful women out there and many of them have morals and are beautiful.

That is the hope you need to focus on.

The book talks about finding hope in the worst possible times. He survived the hollacaust.

It's a quick read.

Give it a shot.

You and your WW are in a power struggle.

Is it possible she's angry at you for having too much say in things during your relationship?

I just assume it's been like that for you, because the give-and-take between you and your W is all power struggling.

You essentially told her, "I selflessly gave you Thursday night alone on the condition that you would stay home, and instead you went out, and I disapprove."

You are trying to control her behavior and she HATES that. Your kindness and generosity is all conditional.

If you continue to participate in this wrestling match she will not have any motivation to move closer to you.

Think about these power dynamics. She needs them to change if she's going to have a relationship with you. I bet your reactions to her behavior fit the same pattern that she was rebelling against with her initial carousing and cheating.

You cannot go back to a relationship with her where these dynamics are at work. She will feel belittled and weak. You can't keep your habits. You have to learn a new way of communicating with her and a new way of navigating these issues. You have to give her some power. She's asserting it in a destructive and hurtful way right now because she doesn't know how else to do it.

Every time one of these things happens you are being tested. Every time you fall into your usual old patterns she sees a reason to stay away from you. But these behaviors are not who you are, they're just habits.

It's not all about identifying needs and not LBing. You have to be aware of the more complex things that your WW may hate about the relationship.

This is something you need to spend time thinking about and something you must be mindful of when you communicate with her.

GC

Thanks for the above posts...I really appreciate your insight.

As for this weekend, she came over Sat. night to get the dog, as I had asked her to go to dinner and watch a movie or something, to which she said "great, I can't wait". So she came over, ended up spending the night and sleeping in the same bed, as it was REAL nice to have someone to sleep with for once and not be alone.

Sat. night, as we were going to bed, her phone rings. I look at the phone, its not a number programmed in her phone (ie. no name came up) . She answered it, and it was a guy. she said it was a friend, who I kinda know and he was just asking what everyone was up to, since he couldn't get a hold of everyone. When she called back and still on the phone, I asked her who it was ' its xxx, do you mind? I'm on the phone"...and slammed the door in my face. So that was just great. Some random guy calling her at midnight on a Saturday night. Thats not shady at all. The OM is out of the picture, so I know its not him.

Anyway, we talked this weekend just in general about everything. I woke up Sunday morning with tears in my eyes, just knowing it was going to be awhile again before I could sleep in the bed with my wife again. This was my WW, not my wife. She said 'why are you still like this? You need to get a grip and take control'. She basically went on to say she doesn't 'want this life anymore' and that she 'made a mistake by marrying me'. I know most of you will say this is fog talk, but I truly believe her. It was about me or this other guy, she wouldn't';t have changed her lifestyle so drastically. She isn't even close to the person I married. she goes out all the time. Has guys calling her, she just doesn't want to be married anymore. she wants her freedom.

Anyway, the only positive crumbs I got from her was 'i am not 100% sure what I want" and "so do you want to hangout Tuesday night?" I know most of you will say that those are good signs, but believe me when i say I know her. She is in love with her new found freedom and the excitement of her new life and all the attention she is getting. She was very bored in our marriage and she is not one to take to that. She needs to be constantly entertained.

Anyway...just a quick update on the VS sitch..

VS

Interesting...

So what's your plan on making your marriage/relationship more entertaining? How do you plan on attracting your wife back, given what you've just stated?

hey, Vince... I don't mean this to come across as harsh buddy... but send this broad packing! She isn't worth your time or effort. Life is out there waiting for you friend. I hope you find the strength to ditch the anchor and set sail for a new and better life.

Vince:

It's fog talk, whether you believe it or not. We've all heard those exact things. If you really believe her, then why do you keep wanting 2 "hang out" with her?

So, what's your plan? You can do anything you want, of course. But do you have further sessions with Jennifer planned? Do you have a timeline in mind for going from plan A 2 plan B?

-ol' 2long

[quote] But dog owners will relate. Something about dogs and their loyalty and unconditional love. So anyway, its going to be real hard to see him go. I love having him around.



I did the same with my dogs! But my dogs each had their personalities that helped me. I have a Dane who laid for hours while I cried. Then I have a Lab who says "You have cried enough it time to get up and lets get going!"

It was amazing the comfort they provide. And the unconditional love is great.

And I will point out too...the Lab was in love with WH. They were inseperable. Well, he left the dog too. The dog doesn't even LOOK at him when he walks in the door. WH sees that and has commented. That hurt him too.

Good, you are off to a good start.


This is where I would have drawn a boundary. I would have told her to leave if she wanted to talk to whoever it was. I mean, for real, at midnight? He is obviously interested in her. Either she respect you in your house, or she can leave. Don't LB, but let her know your boundaries.


How is this going to attract her to the marriage? You wouldn't start crying if you were on a second or third date with someone. Save that until after she leaves. Suck it up!


This is fog talk. This is what my WW told me AFTER she ended her A. It wasn't even about OM. Whatever, we know better. If that is what she wanted, then why was she over? Think about it, Vince. This is where reverse babble comes in. When she says those things, you say, "then why are you here," and, "that's funny, because you haven't even filed for divorce." Also say, "I know how that's how you feel right now, but I know that we can be happy together if we work on this marriage." She wants her freedom (right now), but she doesn't want to lose you as a friend. Make her understand in know uncertain terms, that she is either your W or nothing to you, just friendship is out of the question. What I truly feel she is going through is feeling guilt for what she has done, and not wanting to face it or the hard work of recovery right now. Make it worth her while to face up to it. This will take about 6 months of good plan A to get there.


See, she's not ready to give you up just yet. If you make her afraid of losing you, she's much more likely to engage you. If you keep acting needy and crying, she knows she has much longer to keep you in limbo. Make her think her time is running out in very subtle ways. Confidence is key. Use these opportunities to meet her needs. Entertain her when you are together. She likes attention, but she also likes having you there to count on.

If you aren't going to DTMFA then you have to listen to Jim.

Next time you're going to see her, set aside some time beforehand. Get out a sheet of paper. I know, this is lame, but I'm telling you, it works. Get out a sheet of paper. Make two columns. "DO" on the left and "DON'T" on the right. Fill the page.

"Stand there feeling hurt and powerless while she disrespects you in your own house" would go under DON'T.

"Cry in her presence" would go under DON'T.

"Smile warmly when you see her" would go under DO.

"Sit up straight" would go under DO.

"Whenever possible, think of her as a date and nothing more" would be a DO.

And so on.

Next make a list of things she might say and how to respond.

"I'm not 100% sure what I want" gets the response "Yeah, I'm conflicted too."

"Want to get together Tuesday night?" gets the response "Okay."

Read Orchid's fog babble thread. Seriously, write down things WW might say and your responses. Your responses should, whenever possible, be agreements with backhanded replies, and should always express compassion, understanding, good humor, and confidence. Never disrespect, and never scolding disapproval. Compassion, compassion, compassion.

You don't have to correctly predict exactly what she'll say. If you spend time doing this homework, you'll get your brain working in a way that will lead you to deal with these conversations and situations in a positive way. You're studying for a test. You don't know what the test questions are, but if you're prepared you won't have to.

If something she says or does hurts you too much, or is so rude and egregious that you feel you must protest, then KICK HER OUT of your house. You can always go nuclear if she chooses to act like a jerk.

Finally, make a list of things about your demeanor, things you want to project about yourself.

Now study all that stuff you've written. Memorize it. Then throw it out. You aren't being a faker. You're being prepared and it will show.

Treat this like a project. This is what you can do right now to solve this problem. You have to stop going in unprepared. Start doing your homework or drop the class and DTMFA.

GC

I gotta 'fess out.

I had 2 look DTMFA up. It's out there... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

-ol' 2long

VS,

Buddy, she's sending all the wrong singals and playing you like a fiddle. I am telling you that being strong is your answer.

A quick, "You need to leave this house if you're going to be talking to other men" would show you have balls. Right now she knows she has you eating out of the palm of her hand.

Yes, you don't believe us, but this is fog talk. Otherwise, why in the he!! would she come over at all? Why hasn't she filed if she's so sure?

If you want to cry, excuse yourself and go to the bathroom. Cry in there. Don't let her see you cry.

I know what you're feeling and thinking. You think your W is different and we just don't know her. Why is it, then, that we know exactly what she is doing and saying? Why is it that we know because we have lived through those words and have experienced them?

Believe me, I thought that appeasement would keep her happy and keep her in my life. I couldn't have been more wrong.

So what do you have to lose by being strong? She's already out screwing around and saying she wants to leave. How much worse can it get?

Quit being at her beck and call. She knows you're her little lap dog that will come when called.

This isn't me kicking you when you're down and insulting you. It is illustrating to you how little she respects you.

And yes, writing to yourself is extremely helpful. It's called self parenting and you'd be surprised at what you write.

I used to look in the mirror and tell myself, "Be strong. Be a man. You've been through worse. Show her someone she can respect."

I did this after I was getting on my knees and begging her to not do this to us and our marriage.

VS, please understand that you're not special or different and neither is your W. She is a typical WW and is doing all the things that our WWs did.

Ask yourself why she comes over at all if life away from you is so good? Why does she tell you that she wants to see you take charge and be in control? She wants to see a man!

I'm telling you this because you are repeating all of my mistakes. You're doing exactly as I did. I'm divorced now. I'm divorced because I didn't listen to the people on this forum and I was weak and not strong.

Please, for yourself, re read the advice given and do your best. I know its hard. We're with you bud.

Hi GC, OWL, 2long, medc, jmwc, holy, and broken.

I do have a plan. I work it pretty well actually. When I was tearing up Sunday morning, I though she was still asleep. I was balling, just a tear ran down the side of my face and she happen to see it. Dumb move. I quickly got it together and we hugged it out and just laid there together for awhile.

We are supposed to go to a movie tonight, but I haven't heard from her other than last night she called and left a message saying she needed me to bring some paperwork for the dog by when I come over. So we'll see.

Please believe me when i say I am trying. I need to work on my responses as graycloud said above. I definitely dont start the LB or R/M talk, she does, but then I fall into the trap. So I know I need to work on that, and I will right out questions that she has asked me and be prepared to answer them appropriately.

thanks everyone,
VS