And I just want all of this surely righteous discssion to takeplace somehwere that broken hearted BS and scared new FWS will not see it as support for an affair marriage. No more than that.

Post deleted by notonlywords_

Her "marriage" is illegitimate

Post deleted by notonlywords_

* sigh *

The only "allowance" for divorce is infidelity. I know God offered this but it's still not His desire.

JustJilly has to make her own decision.

For my money, I don't know the "right" decision, either. I lean toward BigKahuna's position of the illegitimacy of her current marriage. Not all the way there, haven't had time to think, but leaning that way. Sad as that is for her children. My heart breaks for those kids.

But I suspect she will probably end up a BS again -- her affair-partner-husband has revealed his true stripes.

Jilly, just quick note about composing in Word for posting on MB. Just do what I do when I do that, as I am doing right now. ADD the MB UBB codes into the Word document for whatever it is you want [quote, [/quote, [i, [/i, [b,[/b[color:red, [/color, etc. I left out the closing bracket so it would post without the system running a quote box, italics, etc. Add the closing bracket for each as needed in the Word document you are using. It will then post on MB the way you want it to appear.

JJ - I am mightily troubled by the postings that have been made by several. I am a BS myself and I "hear" their fears and judgments because I have had to face them myself. Bear with me if you will, but I am going to have to compose a post or two off line because some SERIOUS issues have been raised and, imho, need a careful and thoughtful response.

Until then, let me give you one biblical truth to think about, "God's ways are not our ways, our thoughts are not His thoughts."


6"Seek the LORD while he may be found; call on him while he is near.
7"Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the LORD and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.
8"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD.
9"As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher that your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:6-9)

What you are hearing are the thoughts of men, not the thoughts of God. That is why I lean HEAVILY on the Word of God itself and not just my opinion.

To all who consider themselves believers in Jesus Christ and "born again" into adoption by God, I ask this simple and most fundamental of questions:

WHAT sin is unforgiveable by God that renders our justification before God "null and void?" If we know the
Scripture, we know the answer to that question. Anything else is our "opinion" and our "projection" what might be the way "we would 'do it' if we were God."

This is not a question of what WE "like or don't like," this is a question regarding the Sovereignty of God.

"What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For He says to Moses,

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." (referring to Exodus 33:19)

It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy." (Romans 9:14-16)


When I can devote the time to a more thorough response I will do so. It may take some time because, yes "covered up" means that I am rather busy with business related things right now.

God bless.

FH... nothing you have ever written here or anything I have ever read in Scripture has made me see that repentance is not required for the forgiveness of sin. I have read on this subject... as I am sure you have... God requires us to turn from sin. An A marriage is sinful from its inception. I assume that is the crux of the argument that you have heard here.

MEDC - Your post deserves a more careful response, but since that is likely to take me much more time than I have available right now, let me simply make a few comments for now, as something to think about.

We are all called to "repentance." That is a given. So the question is "what repentance" are we "called to?"

I have heard many times on this system that when Jesus said "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do," that is a "blanket" forgiveness of everyone regardless of whether or not they accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

Is that a true statement? Is that what Jesus meant in that prayer to the Father?

I have heard many people say that they believe that a "born again" believer can lose their salvation, a position that I don't believe that Scripture teaches. Given such a position, though, it is easy to understand how someone holding such a position could easily "rate" some sins as being of sufficient "gravity" that they would result in God "taking back" His previous justification of them that was granted because of what Jesus did for them, that was not based upon what they did.

Our salvation and justification before God IS NOT dependent upon what we do or don't do, it is dependent upon what Jesus has already done for us. That is what the Word of God teaches.

Furthermore, if ANYONE divorces their spouse because the spouse engaged in adultery, and then later marries someone who is not a believer or who may have been involved in a prior adulterous relationship, then that "faithful spouse," is, by Jesus' definition, engaging in adultery themselves.

Is it the sin of adultery itself "sufficient cause" to result in someone losing their salvation? Is it the act itself or the "condition of the heart" that is in need of repentance when one is convicted of sin by the indwelling Holy Spirit?

When Peter was told to "eat" of anything, in direct conflict with the "law," was he being told to commit a sin?

WHO is it that establishes what the law of God is?

God DOES require believers to turn from sin, but NOT as a "condition" of their salvation. Remember, there IS a difference between salvation and "rewards" that will be given to believers who live according to God's commands and teaching.


"An A marriage is sinful from its inception. I assume that is the crux of the argument that you have heard here."

Yes, it is the "crux" of the argument, personalized by those, primarily, who have been Betrayed Spouses themselves.

This is really not much different than God recognizing just how painful and difficult adultery is to humans. God grants the Faithful spouse the right to a divorce if they cannot "forgive as God forgives." That is the essence of the command that we are to forgive "seventy times seven times," but we are not required to live with the person if we "just cannot or will not" continue to live with someone who hurt us so badly.

The "point" that I believe needs to be considered here, however, is NOT how a sin is conceived, but how sin in general is forgiven by God so that the sinner is justified before God. Let's extend that argument a bit, okay?

We, humans, are ALL conceived in sin. Does that FACT make it "impossible" for God to forgive us and create a "new person" in anyone that He has forgiven? What can any of us DO that "earns" God's forgiveness so that we can stand justified before Him?

What about those marriages that were made and dissolved by unbelievers? What about their subsequent remarriages? At what point is "enough, enough" with God whereby what we have done is so heinous TO GOD that He not only won't forgive us, but CAN'T forgive us?

I would submit that there is only one "unforgiveable sin" and that sin is called "Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit."

It is my personal conviction that that Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit(whose mission is to convict the world of sin) is the total rejection of Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior and occurs at the time of death of the individual. Once "the clock has run out on our time on earth," God CANNOT forgive our sins because to do so would violate His equal attribute of being Just. God established the one way for forgiveness of sin that gives salvation whereby we are justified before God. It is NOT dependent upon anything we do or don't do in this life other than accepting Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. Even that acceptance is NOT "our doing," but is a result of God Himself changing our hearts so that we can accept Jesus. The "best example" I can think of that illustrates that is the forgivness granted to the one thief on the cross and the withholding of forgiveness for the other thief on the other cross next to Jesus.

"I tell you the truth...."

Jesus also chose His disciples. Even Paul was chosen by God despite all that he had done and was doing as Saul, a Pharisee of Pharisees.

So, yes, repentance is "required" for forgiveness of sins because repentance comes from a "changed heart" that realizes that sin of any kind is anathema to God and is not consistant with being a believer and living a "Christ-like" life. It is the Holy Spirit who makes us aware of those sins and brings us to the conviction that we need to repent of them and follow God.

It is not the eating of foods or the living with a spouse, regardless of the type of food or the prior condition of the marriage, that is "illegitimate." It is the condition of our heart that makes it so. To believe otherwise would seem to indicate that God's forgiveness of a believer's sins is "conditional" and "dependent" upon what us, and not dependent upon Jesus and what He did for us when He took on all of the sins of the world upon Himself and died in our place as the "sufficient penalty for sin."

God bless.

P.S. Could you provide a reference for the quotation you used regarding repentance. I'd like to research that further. Thanks.

My issue is nothing to do with whether JJs sins are forgiven, and if they ARE whether this "legitimises" her affair marriage.

It is entirely about forum elders choosing to encourage or discourage the vast majority of the poor souls on these boards who see an affair marriage as the worst and most feared outcome possible of their current travails.

Help JJ, and debate scripture academics by all means but can you not see how destructive it is to do it HERE in the face of the devastated ? I BEG you find somewhere quiet to do it.

Or would you force a hurtful lesson in extreme situation forgiveness on the trembling BS and new FWS at this time ?

Bob, that was the part of the question that I really wanted FH to answer. If he knows it is so very offensive to most BS... why encourgae discussion here on MB. It seems very insensitive to many on these boards.

MEDC

"If secular remarriage legitmises affairs , why do any of us bother to fight for our marriage anyway ? If they can be made OK before God by remarriage and forgiveness without any change of behaviour, WS will be laughing."

THIS is the message these debates send to BS and wavering new FWS here IMO and I would move it somewhere else. The web is full of places where this can be discussed including chaperoned email groups.

I will bow out of the debate. Bob, I received an email from a lurker a few hours ago that identified another poster as being in an A marriage... based on her own words...yet she continues to get advice on this forum. Do we owe it to others to expose this stuff here... or to just let it be?

Post deleted by notonlywords_

MEDC, your experience just highlights how divisive this issue is and how it needs its own safe place for discussion and support.

I suspect there are many secret "affair marriages" on these boards just as there are in life. I'm not sure who it would help for them to be exposed, but that is your discretion to decide.

I am outside the "debate" too, but I would remain to ask folks to move their debate somewhere less potentially hurtful.

Hope you are doing well but the way.

Not only words, but deeds too ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I thank you for your compassion and understanding, dear lady.

Please continue to converse with, and help JustJilly, but in a less misinterpretable place. You have much to offer anyone struggling with betrayal issues.

until you know for sure, consider it gossip

I am CERTAIN there are many A-marriages we don't know about ... this is , after all, an infidelity forum ... any A-marriage is more likely to suffer future affairs

Pep

Watch for all you are worth until you hear the Bridegroom's voice in the life of another. Never mind what havoc it brings, what upsets, what crumblings of health, rejoice with divine hilarity when once His voice is heard. You may often see Jesus Christ wreck a life before He saves it. - Oswald Chambers.

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." Matthew 10:34

Hey all,

Excuse me for butting in here. I've read most of this post and found it most fascinating.

I am a BS, and I have to say, I stand with B0B Pure on this one, for the most part. Bottom line, you reep what you sow.

But the reason I'm posting is this:

On several occasions since my own experience with this affair crap stuff, I have heard the story of David and Bathsheba. More recently, I watched the story of King David. So, David has an affair with a married woman. He has her husband killed. She gets pregnant, loses the baby. David repents. Well, you know the story. But what I was sort of bothered about is this affair marriage thing. It seemed to me, in watching the movie that, yes, David suffers consequences for his actions, i.e., losing his son. But as it happens, life goes on, and with Bathsheba. They have another son, yata yata.

So I'm thinking to myself, hey, wait a minute. Why does this marriage last? It's illegitimate, right? I'm not discounting the loss of their son as a huge consequence, but it appeared to me that they ended up in not too bad a place.

As a betrayed spouse, I was a little put off by this.

Husband and I had a discussion on it. My take was that consequences of sin are just sort of the natural fallouts from what was committed (For example, FWH has affair, leaves, blah blah. This damages relationship with one of his children, a natural consequence, right?)

Husband said yes, but that punishment can come in other ways. So, back to David ... son rapes sister, son killed, and you know the rest. So, is that unrelated consequence, punishment? Whatever?

I hope I'm making sense here.

Another question perhaps FH can answer:

If God's design for marriage is laid out in the Bible, why are there so many men with multiple wives? What's up with that?

Thanks, don't mean to threadjack ... just curious.