L2S, If you do go over there to get your things, PLEASE, don't go alone. Either take a friend or a cop, but do NOT, I repeat, DO NOT go alone!

And once you have your things, change your phone number! You do NOT have to allow him contact with you. You do not owe him ANYTHING, especially explanations!

CUT HIM LOOSE! He is dead weight which is altering your life! He has NO rights to you or what you do!

As for the parenting classes, you can go whether he does or not. I did it, and my X didn't. It only hurt him and his case. Just do what you have to do, and begin your new life without him. He is TOXIC!

(((((L2S)))) My thoughts are with you. Take care...Jen

L2S --

You getting your stuff out of his house is the best thing I've read on this thread! And like Jen said, don't you dare go alone. You MUST bring someone with you -- otherwise it will escalate to something ugly and will be nothing but a face to face continuation of these stupid phone calls.

Once that is over and done with, please change your phone number and go to the very strictest of Plan B's.

I also think you should get into some kind of counseling for yourself. You need to understand why you allow ANYONE to treat you like this. You have a very large role in this dance, you haven't changed your way of interacting with him.
He leads...you follow.

You were given some VERY good advice earlier -- to politely tell him you will not tolorate name calling and hang up. But you didn't. Why not? Why did you not try re-training his bad behavior? Why did you allow it to continue and escalate?

Oh he's "done" "now"....wasn't he "done" before? or the time before that or the time before that?????

Just how many last straws does this guy have? And why doesn't he realize or respect YOUR last straw????

Be done.

He wants you to carry his guilt. Mine did similar though not as much. Still I then asked if the WS was 'bi'. He was shocked. How dare Orchid ask such a question. My RB response was he did so many shocking things and even accused me of wanting other men, that it made me think he was 'bi'. LOL!!! That toned him down a bit, then I laid it on him that his behavior was making me wonder about if other men were good since he was sooo bad. Yea.... he couldn't retort other than to say that not all men were bad like him. Score one for the BS!!!

Now when you go get your stuff, take someone with you or even ask for a civil standby. The police will go on a civil standby for about 1 hour. I have been on such a call when I served the RO paperwork on a WS whose BS used to post here.

Yep, we at MB have seen a lot.

Be cautious and take care.

L.

I think your H is showing classic signs of abusive behaviour - telephone harassment (12 times a day), name-calling, destroying your things (this is destroying you by proxy), threatening suicide, accusing you of relationships with OM, trying to control where you go, who you see, what you do....making you wait to demonstrate his control over you. He is only "happy" when he feels he has control over you. When he thinks he has control over you, then he feels he can "love" you. He does nice things for you to "hook" you, like a fish - you interpret these actions as him being loving - that's why you are confused.

I think everything you feel - the fear, and also the confusion, is appropriate for the situation - this IS what women feel when they are involved with an abusive man - his behavior IS confusing.

I think you are getting exactly the right kind of counselling - from a women's shelter from someone who understands the games he is playing with you. Counselling with another type of counselor will not help you - they do not understand the dynamics of an abusive relationship. Nor do most people who have not had the same experience.

A book which has really helped me is Steven Stosny's "You Don't Have to Take it Anymore" - this man runs the only really successful rehabilitation program for abusive men. He understands the dynamics of the abuser and also what it does to the person involved with an abusive personality. Demonizing the abuser does not help. He is the way he is because he cannot feel compassion for you. He is that way because he does not want to feel any of his bad feelings. In order to feel compassion for someone else, you have to be able to empathize with their pain, meaning you have to be able to imagine how they might be feeling when they are distressed. For most people, this step is not something that threatens to overwhelm them, they pass through it and offer comfort to someone who is suffering. An abusive person feels overwhelmed by those feelings - he shuts them off - so he cannot empathize. He also feels that he is reacting to YOU. He feels that what you do causes him to behave the way he does. He denies having control over his own actions and sees himself as reacting to you. So he projects his violent behaviour on to you. His extreme reactivity shows that he is still emotionally involved with you.

One of the most painful thiings for women involved with abusive men is what it does to them inside - many women say "he's made me just like him - I lie to avoid arguments, I can't feel anything anymore - I'm angry, hard, resentful, scared, suspicious...." As Stosny says..." most women are reluctant to reveal the depth of their guilt, shame and fear of abandonment to their disapproving therapists....I have heard hundreds of therapists at conferences express exasperation about their clients' reluctance to leave their walking-on-eggshells relationships. While training therapists worldwide, I always emphasize the utter necessity of compassion for their clients' enormous burden of guilt. Making hurt women feel ashamed of their natural (albeit irrational) feelings of guilt is intolerably bad practice. Compassion for her core hurts is the healthy way to help her heal her pain."

The most important thing at this stage is your safety. You can spend a lifetime trying to figure him out, trying to solve his problems, living at the effect of his bad behaviour. The bottom line is that nothing YOU do will change him. But you can have compassion for him. And the compassionate thing to do, if he refuses to change, is to stop allowing him to be cruel to you, take yourself out of his orbit, and start working on the process of healing yourself, with the help of people who understand what you have been through.

The most dangerous time for someone involved in an abusive relationship is during the time of separation, or after you have left him, when he is losing control of you, or has lost control of you. Be careful. Don't see him alone. If you feel it is too dangerous to go get your stuff right now, leave it until another time. You don't have to jump just because he says you have to. Choose to do what you do only if it feels safe for you. That's the guide you should use - your gut instinct as to whether or not it is safe.

Take care.

Abuse counseling from an abuse shelter. That is absolutely great advice.

Get protecton when you get your things. Talk to the abuse shelter person about this. But do it.

Get on with your life as fast as you can. Get him OUT of your life even if it means moving to another state.

I don't want to read about you as a statistic.

Larry

Please stay in touch with us today -- you are going into the most volitile situation, and you haven't been back to tell us your plan (whether you are bringing someone ie. POLICE) with you to get your things.

I am worried.

I 2nd Lexxy's advice. Keeping this thread up front!

hugz,
L.

All. I'm back home with 4 boxes of, for the most part, sentimental possessions. Still have all the major stuff to get.

I did act stupid and go alone. One person knew where I was going and it was prearranged for me to call her.

I was there about 5 hours. He did throw some of my stuff on the porch last night in a rage. Nothing damaged that some touch-up paint can't fix. A couple of things I can't find but, I'll keep looking.

He wanted to do a lot of rehashing of how we got to where we are and what role I played in it all. He is angry b/c I will not admit to being in love w/the guy at church. I am not in love w/the guy. I admit that it was pretty stupid of me to talk to him as I did. I can fully understand why my H thinks I had an A and, according to him, some folks from church told him about me and the guy talking. I was really angry at him over stuff he was doing to me and moving his son in and putting me last and on and on. But, I realized that what I was doing didn't look good so I stopped talking to the guy, stopped being near him, would walk in or out opposite doors of the church from him.

For a long time I stopped going to church altogether. This was during the time that we tried counseling last year until I discovered that he was having another A.

Shoot, I'm rehashing, too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. Anyway, we did a lot of rehashing. He tried to talk me into having s*x w/ him. When I wouldn't, he then got angry and started calling me a princess. He said that I think that what he did was so much worse than what I did so it justifies for me in my mind that I can't touch him. He also said, and this really ticked me off, that I didn't seem to have a problem with SF after his first A (he called her by name) so he doesn't understand why I'm such a touch-me-not now.

Basically, b/c I talked to the guy at church, I'm no better than him and the full-blown affair that he had. I'm not even including the R w/2nd XW and the other two women I've been told about.

My next step is to see if I can take a couple of days off work the end of this week, line up a storage unit and get the rest of my stuff.

I am not negating the things I've done wrong, especially the lies I've told and the guy at church. Those are big. But, like I've told my H before, I wish that I believed that all he had done was what I've done. I could live w/that. I can't live w/the As b/c I think it's just a matter of time until the next one.

An earlier post mentioned a book. I've heard of that one before. I will try to get it. I'm really serious about figuring out why I am the way I am. I don't want to start the next phase of my life with this same baggage. I will only continue to attract the same kind of men as my H. I don't want that.

I really miss the man I thought I was marrying. He was so kind, considerate, sweet, funny. Funny though a close friend never liked him and is not surprised by how things have turned out. I wish him well and hope he is able to move on w/his life. I know he will.

It just really, really hurts even though I believe I've made the right decision. Please pray for God's peace and guidance for me. This is one of the hardest things I've ever done.

I keep having these recurring thoughts that I'm making a mistake. I told my counselor and described to her the way I feel when it happens. She thinks I'm having panic attacks.

When it happens I feel such an overwhelming sadness. I feel like I can't get a deep enough breath. I just want to curl into a ball and sob myself into oblivion.

I know you all probably get really, really, REALLY tired of me posting the same old sob stories month after month. But, I am really having a hard time with this. I keep taking steps forward but, I am really scared.

Except for a couple of times he hasn't been nasty; last night was an exception. But, I keep praying for continued validation of what I'm doing so that I stay on track. When he went off the deep end over me wearing wedding rings when he hasn't worn his in about 4 years, I think I am moving in the right direction.

I've done wrong as well and I need to take responsibility for what I've done. I was wrong in many things. If he can forgive me for what I've done and be willing to move forward would I be wrong to continue feeling like I do about the As and the abuse?

But..............

if he continues to throw everything up in my face and "go nasty" when I make him mad, has he really forgiven me?

Hi there <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm really glad you're safe. That's the #1 thing.

I read some things from you in an old area, that are new. So, I'm going to post on that old area, "anew". Please forgive me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

For the first time that I remember, you said that you saw yourself as doing something 'wrong', with the level of involvement you had with the guy at church.
Previously, the impression I got, was that you were implying it was all in your husband's head, and you werent really doing anything wrong at all.

If you view what you were doing as wrong... that says that there is something valid behind your husband's angry feelings about that. Previously, seems like the discussions here were on the basis of, "ok, he's just going nuts over nothing".



Jumping backwards in the post chronolog, to address his sudden "mr. hydra":
You specifically brought up to him in the phone call, that you were going to church.
You knew how that would make him feel.
You basically chose to start a fight with him.
It's not surprising at all to me, that he was then nasty to you.



[/quote]
Big subject change...

I find it VERY interesting that he approached you for SF.
I'm sure some people here would say "he's just trying to regain control of you physically!!" But the way you describe it, I somehow get the feeling that it was more than that.



Of course he hasnt forgiven you. In his mind, you have had/are having an emotional affair, if not a physical one.
Seems like most people write here that it takes a year to two years, with a fully remorseful spouse, after the affair has stopped, to really get over the pain.

You have neither stopped seeing (in a literal sense) the guy, nor are you really remorceful about it. If you were... you would have changed churches.
In his eyes, you have "stopped seeing(dating) him, but you're still working with him". Know what I mean?

[/quote]

I'm not trying to put you down, or force you to do anything here. All I'm trying to do, is be a translator for his viewpoint.
Yikes... this post is rather too long :-? trimmed out yet MORE stuff i had to say, so it's digestible <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I did not bring up church; he did.

In other posts I've said that I can understand how he would think I was having an A b/c I did talk to the guy on many occasions. To an outsider looking in, I can understand the assumption. But, I did not cross the line. When I realized how it must look to everyone, I stopped talking to him. I don't interact with him anymore.

I've been to church about 3 times this year. Either the guy isn't there or has his g/f (now fiance) with him. After all the grief and pain I've gone through with this marriage b/c of the affairs, the last thing in the world I want is another man in my life capable of an A. I'm not interested in anyone and certainly don't want someone in my life while I'm still married.

Regarding SF, what do you think the reason was?

Regarding the anger, when he's mad, he throws up everything he thinks I've done wrong from the day I met him. He throws up my past, he calls me names that are more appropriate to him (i.e. sl*t and wh*ore - in the past 20+ years I've been with 2 men - both my husbands. He's been with at least 9 women that I can name. I would probably add a few more just for good measure).

Anyway, thanks for responding.

oops. sorry about the misreading on who brought up the church issue, then.


"Regarding SF, what do you think the reason was?"

well, call it a long shot, but... I'm guessing.... he misses SF with you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


I also would comment, that a man who is being satisfied physically somewhere, is probably not going to be too interested in SF with you.
He was definately interested in it, *with you*, specifically. He tried to talk you into it, by bringing up, "well, you didnt mind it before, so why [deny me what I want] now?"

To me, that says that even if he is getting it elsewhere... it doesnt fulfil him. he wants to be with you.
Neither of us could probably accurately determine whether that is because he "just wants to control you", or whether it is something more.

alternatively... he got really up-front about it.. because he's REALLY sexually frustrated.. and wants to do something about it with his wife, not someone else.
In your very-distant past now... do you remember how his behaviour changed, when he hadnt had SF for an extended period?
If so, is he acting along those lines now?


as far as the "how can he be so nasty to me when he also..." stuff...
Just because he has done it... doesnt mean that he thinks it is right. On the contrary; He's acknowleged that what he has done, is NOT right.
Seeing you (in his mind) also doing something wrong, could actually make him angrier. It is said that people hate the most in other people, what they hate about themselves, eh?

ah well, gotta run.

Okay. Haven't heard from anyone. I know I didn't act in the smartest way on Sunday but, I believe that taking someone with me, especially the police, would have made the situation worse. I really don't have anyone that I would consider taking w/me into that situation.

I met with my counselor yesterday. She knows that I am unsettled in my thinking and want to end the R but am worried about the what ifs. She believes that people can change but it takes a tremendous amount of will power and determination; this will be true in my case as well not to end up back in the same type R somewhere down the line.

In her experience she said that most women go back to an abuser 7 times before they make a clean break. Of those that get out they report a great sense of peace that they did not have before.

In my case, I don't have the barriers (thank God) that many of the women she works with do. I am financially stable, my D is older, I have a great family support system and many people here to get advice from.

H has calmed down now and is back to being willing to do anything to make it work. I just can't see getting past the abuse and the affairs. I do believe that I have contributed in many ways to our problems, mainly my lack of boundaries and my wishy washy behavior in terms of not ending the M before now.

Any advice from anyone?

well... it's been 2 hours, and no posts from anyone else, so I'll reply to you quick before I have to leave for the day <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


i can understand that. right now, you dont want to even be around him. seems like you're scared, and repulsed, by him. But you also remember some of his positive qualities.

How about this:
As you say, you're in a financially stable position right now. You have no real urgent need for anything, besides peace in your life.
If you had that, you wouldnt need to get fussy about other things.

Forget about "being married" vs "being divorced" for now.
How about, just being able to get along with the man you married?

How about writing him a list of things for him to work on in himself, which would make you feel comfortable about him being around you and your daughter once in a while.
This is very similar to the list I suggested you write before <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ... but with a different slant to it.

Maybe focus on feeling comfortable, and safe, around him.
That would have to include him getting counselling for his anger control issues, amoung other things.

There are also things, that, while not strictly in that category... are going to sabotage this from happening.

Please... please... change churches.
You could go on about "I shouldnt have to".. "nothing is going on any more"... "I'm entitled to pick where I go to church!!" and who knows what else, to avoid doing it.
But the bottom line is, changing churches, will result in you having a more peaceful life. For multiple reasons!

1. your husband will quit harrassing you about it
2. you wont be faced with that guy when you go, which I
think might benefit YOU
3. you should feel more comfortable about going more frequently, which sounds like it would also help make you feel better, if you find a pastor that you like.

If you choose to change churches, you might also put in something about "no sleeping around, because it's a bad example to our daughter". But I think it would only be right to do so, if you change churches.
NOT because your going to that church, is equivalent, on an absolute scale. But because on a relative scale, it will seem large to him.

To paraphrase the servant talking to Nahum(?)... "If He had asked you to do so much more for you to be healed... would you not do it? So then, do this little thing, and be glad".

God be with you.

I don't have anything to add to what I have said before. Lemme say it again:

Get him out of your life.

Larry

Well I think he is following his pattern - gets angry at you, has a temper tantrum, lots of drama, then he calms down (since he "let off steam" by using you as a whipping post) - now he "wants to work on the relationship". He's like a yo-yo, except you are on the yo-yo string with him, being yanked up and down by his inability to control his temper - this is the cyclic pattern of abuse. You know that if you accept him back into your life, it will all happen all over again.

I strongly urge you to get Stosny's book - you can also look at his website called www.compassionpower.com - for me, it helped explain to me why for us, marriage counselling made everything a lot worse, why psychotherapy didn't help him and why anger management courses don't work - because they don't help him get to the bottom of his problem, which is his inability to feel compassion for you. Stosny deals with both parties - the abuser and the abused - for the abused, there is a lot of work to be done called "removing the thorns from your heart". And for him, there is the hard work of reconditioning him to feel compassion again, in the section called "Boot Camp". If your H really wants to work on the relationship, he will have to be willing to change. He probably doesn't know how - you could try giving him this book after you have read it. There is no guarantee this will have any effect on him - if he won't do the work, he will never change and if you keep him in your life, you will continue to suffer...

As to setting boundaries, because that often comes up in discussions on this board when a spouse is abusive, I'd just like to quote you a paragraph from Stosny's book -

"Even highly skilled marriage therapists don't quite get the dynamics of walking on eggshells. For example, one popular and otherwise excellent therapist and author has written that women in abusive marriages have to learn to set boundaries. 'She needs to learn skills to make her message -"I will not tolerate this behaviour any longer"-heard. [The] hurt person [must] learn how to set boundaries that actually mean something.' This is the therapeutic equivalent of a judge dismissing your lawsuit against vandals because you failed to put up a 'Do not vandalize" sign. You have to wonder if this therapist puts Post-its on valued objects in her office that clearly state, 'Do not steal!'

Putting aside the harmful, inaccurate implication that women are abused because they don't have the 'skill to set boundaries', this kind of intervention completely misses the point. Your husband's resentment, anger, or abuse comes from HIS substitution of power for value. It has NOTHING to do with the way you set boundaries or with what you argue about. It has to do with HIS violation of his deepest values...you will be protected, not by setting obvious boundaries that he won't respect, but by reintegrating your deepest values into your everyday sense of self. When you no longer internalize the distorted image of yourself that your husband reflects back to you, your husband will clearly understand that he has to change the way he treats you if he wants to save the marriage."

The point is that the whole concept of setting boundaries works only with people who recognize your right to set boundaries, even if they don't like the boundaries you set. An abusive man does not recognize the concept that you have any rights at all, let alone the right to set boundaries. Verbal boundaries don't work. You set a boundary by getting up and walking away. That is the only thing that says to him "I will not accept being treated like this". I think that's where you are at right now.

As to why he would want to have sex....there are a lot of reasons - because you were there, or because he wanted to dominate you by proving to himself that he could still get you to consent to having sex with him even after he had just torn up your stuff and called you names, or because he was hyped up by the intensity of his anger and he gets turned on by that, or maybe because he really does miss you and wanted to try to get you back....but I don't see why you should have sex with someone who calls you a w***e and a slut....

Something to think about - you keep beating yourself up over the guy you talked to at church....what if you HAD had a full-blown physical affair? Do you think your husband would have the right to abuse you then - call you names, belittle you, rub your nose in it? I personally don't believe he does. My H has had 2 EAs and 1 PA - I have been justifiably angry with him, but I don't believe that gives me the right to abuse him, either physically, emotionally, or verbally. My H is not remorseful either - not yet. I still don't have the right to abuse him. Abusing him for what he has done wrong isn't going to help him, and it will turn me into someone I don't want to be. So sure, I can understand the fury a BS feels, but I still don't think that gives me the right to abuse him. And if a BS doesn't have the right to abuse a WS, a BS sure doesn't have to take abuse FROM a WS.
You stand up for yourself by doing exactly what you are doing - walking away from him since he isn't showing any sign of changing. Walking away from him might motivate him to change himself. Staying with him and continuing to buy into his c**p guarantees that he will not change, because he doesn't have to.

You are being very brave right now by deciding this is not what you want your life to be about. That's scary - no wonder you are having panic attacks. Change is scary. Take it one day at a time. Sounds like you have a good counselor. I'd stick with that and keep going forward one step at a time.

Take care.

Friend4life,

Thanks. I am taking baby steps. It's really hard. For all that my H has done to me and said about me, I have never cursed him out. I think in the 10 years we've been married I've said maybe 3-4 four letter words to him. I have tried, not always successfully, not to throw his past in his face. I do succumb from time to time b/c he starts in on me about things I've done wrong.

The counselor I'm going to holds a group session one day a week and I'm really considering going this week if I can swing it. I don't know what to expect or what I'll gain from it but I think it would do me good.

I am continuing in counseling for the time being. I have a lot of issues myself that I need to work through. I agree that nothing I have done gives my H the right to abuse me. I believe by my acceptance of his abuse that i gave him the impression that it was okay to abuse me and I would keep coming back for more. That's a part of me I want to change.

At this point, I really don't see how to get beyond what has happened. Early in our M, I lapped up his apologies and would do anything after one of his apologies. After the 1,000th apology for cursing me, throwing my past in my face, threatening me in some way or being physically abusive, they just don't have the same impact as the earlier ones did.

I guess I look at it like this: If he was truly sorry, he would follow his words with actions. He can easily verbalize his failures, his promises, his wishes. But, his actions fall short. He can go for weeks/months being nice but I have spent the last three years knowing that at some point he would become abusive again. Right now, with the exception of a couple of times, he hasn't cursed me out in about 2 months.

He has told me that he's seeing a counselor but he won't say who or how he found him. It's a big secret apparently. This automatically makes me wonder b/c his last OW was a drug and alcohol counselor in training. So b/c he's secretive my mind automatically wanders to her. Did she recommend someone? Is he really in counseling? Who knows.

He really plays on my sympathy b/c he knows I'm a rescuer. This is one of the red flags that my counselor and I discussed yesterday. He has some health problems related to a back injury and some surgeries and I often wonder if his back is hurting or if he's trying to play on my sympathy b/c he knows it gets to me. I'm not saying that he isn't in pain (3 surgeries) but others have told me that they think he uses it to his advantage. I've been told that they've observed him when he doesn't know he's being watched and he seems okay but, when he's aware that others are around, he winces and groans, etc. He does this alot when he's on the phone with me. He makes lots of comments about needing to get certain things done before his insurance is terminated meaning that after we D, he won't have insurance.

That is his choice. He can keep the insurance for 3 years at about $300/month. So, he can choose the fancy truck or health insurance; his choice.

I'm one mixed up puppy. I don't see a way to get beyond all that I know and all that has been done but I don't want to hurt him either. I know that he will be fine and will quickly move on regardless how much he says he loves me.

I just don't see how people get past the affairs and the abuse. How do you ever get close and trust again after a second affair? I did get past one but a second just srips everything away.

Oh well.

L2S --
I am so glad you are getting counseling -- because in spite of all his faults, I think you are the one having the real problem in breaking the connection.

Maybe if you work on your strength -- and get yourself whole and healed, you will recognize that this is not your failure, that there are many men who would love and respect a partner like you, and that you don't deserve anything less.

Maybe once you've worked on yourself, you will see this for what it is. Its time to stop being his victim.

It doesn't matter what he says or even what he does -- because it is all just manipulation to get you back where he can control and abuse you.

So this is about YOU now. Not him, not his faults. Just you, and what you're going to do for yourself.

Sounds like you're the one that doesnt get it, friend4life.
Saying that those people need to learn that skill, is not the same thing as "dismissing their case" against being abused.
If the abusive spouse suddenly disappeared off the face of the earth... the remaining one still needs to learn that skill! It's a basic life skill.


I think you're 'abusing' the concept of boundaries <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
The base concept of boundaries, is that it doesn't matter whether the other party "recognizes your right to set boundaries" for yourself. Because "boundaries" come down to YOU, not the other person. Another person cannot stop YOU, from enforcing a boundary, because the boundary is supposed to be about actions/changes YOU will take, on YOURSELF, to enforce it.

I'm guessing this is exactly what that therapist meant, by setting boundaries that "mean something". Both in the sense of identifying a boundary that was useful and clear.. and also setting an appropriate type of boundary "enforcement", that the person can implement for themselves, reguardless of how the spouse reacted.

Also, boundaries are supposed to be progressively enforced. Whether or not you view the other person as abusive.
Certainly, the ultimate boundary, is "walk away, and cut the other person out of your life". But there are intermediate boundary enforcements that can take place before that final one.
Seems like there are still some "intermediate" level boundaries that l2s cound set. Such as the list I suggested.

Thanks for the input, techie.

I think I do get what you're saying - that regardless of whether or not an abusive spouse recognizes their partner's right to set boundaries, setting boundaries is a life skill she has to learn anyway - absolutely right. A person who has been in an abusive relationship has had her boundaries trampled on for so long they often don't know what 'normal' feels like, so setting boundaries can feel very scary and uncomfortable...also, an abused person is often severely punished for daring to try to set boundaries. An abuser will immediately see any boundaries she tries to set and deliberately knock them down to prove to her that she is not able to "control" him.

I think what Stosny is trying to say is that many therapists take the abused person to task for not setting boundaries, and the implication is that if the abused person were stronger at setting boundaries, the abuse wouldn't happen. The implication is that if the abused person were stronger, the man would have to listen and respect her. That is not so. He just uses her actions against her as justification for his mistreatment. Fighting back and setting boundaries that he continues to trample over do not help him to change.
Getting up and walking away really is often the only effective way to get the message through that you are not going to take being treated like this. I agree with you totally that the abused person has to learn how to set boundaries - those boundaries are for her - they are her internal rules that she sets for herself that tell her she is worthy of respect and love, and when she encounters behaviour towards herself that is disrespectful and unloving, she recognizes it for what it is and says to herself, I don't like being treated like that, I'm not going to accept it, and the way I tell him I am not going to accept it is by refusing to be in a relationship where I am not treated with love and respect.

The reason why marriage counselling often makes an abusive situation worse is that most marriage counselors work using the assumption that the power relationship in the marriage is equal, i.e. both parties have a mutual respect for each other, and a respect for normal boundaries, even if they disagree, or have transgressed, for example, had an affair that they have lied about. But counselling a couple where one partner is abusive often turns into an examination of the "communication problem" where the abused person is challenged on how she communicates with the abuser...then the issue becomes her way of communicating, not his behaviour, when actually the issue is his behaviour. Abusers are very good at blame shifting.

I wonder what "intermediate boundary enforcements" look like in this kind of a relationship?

If you call me names, I will....?
If you throw my stuff out into the street, I will...?
If you don't speak to me for days just to punish me for something, I will...?
If you pull my hair, I will...?
If you call me more than 10 times a day, I will...?
If you have one affair, I will...?
If you have another affair, I will...?
If I ask you not to do something and you do it anyway, I will...?

Do you see what I am getting at? Normal relationships recognize the validity of boundary setting. Most people in normal relationships, even if they transgress the boundaries, recognize that they have crossed over an invisible and unspoken line. They either decide to forfeit the relationship they had before they crossed the line, or they apologize for crossing the line, and come back and try to rectify what they have damaged. An abuser's relationship is BUILT ON crossing that invisible line all the time, in a thousand different ways, then apologizing for it, then doing it again, over and over again. All Stosny is saying is that it is cruel to make a woman who has been sucked into this kind of relationship feel that she is somehow partly responsible for his behaviour towards her. She's not. He is responsible for his behaviour 100% of the time. She is responsible for accepting being treated like that. But it often takes a long time for a woman to realize she is in an abusive relationship, because of the cycle of abuse/apology/abuse/apology, etc..etc...etc...many abusers are charm itself to the outside world and extremely charming and affectionate when they are being "good". L2S is right to refer to her H as a doctor Jekyll/Hyde personality - when he is Dr. J, he is probably a really nice guy. Most women love Dr. J and can't understand at all where Mr. H comes from. I see that in L2S posts - that terrible confusion - that is what I am responding to....and just trying to cast some light on the confusion she is feeling....