See, my problem is that I stop reacting and try to sit back and be peaceful. I leave her alone. But I miss the kids and each day it hurts and it eats away at me and the anger grows. I have no outlet and it builds. She won't even tell me that they are okay. That was my last request of her from over a month ago, just let me know from time to time that the kids are okay. I suppose that was too much to expect.

And it builds until eventually I lose it again. And so, from her standpoint, I'm the aggressor. And its like I keep trying and keep trying and keep trying to bring the peace.

She was so mad at the start and she kept making demands but she wouldn't budge on anything and I wouldn't either. But eventually, I wanted peace so bad, I changed to a mode of appeasement. You know what, nothing whatsoever has changed on her end. She still does all the things she has always done. Its still too much to ask just that I be told once in a while how the kids are doing (I'm not even asking her to let me see the kids or talk to them which is what I desperately want).

I read in a book that appeasement never works. I was told by others not to give in to her demands that it wouldn't work. And you know what, I should have listened.

She only hates me all the more for it.

Sorry, to dump but it's the way I'm feeling <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

It's called passive agressive behavior. Being mellow, not addressing issues, letting it build and then flipping out. Exercise, relaxation, meditation, church, counseling, whatever works for you. When you get in that "mode" of wanting to flip out on her, don't flip out, take a walk, breathe, whatever it takes. If she sees you in those psycho moments certainly she'll never come back, or have her kids around that. I've heard of other fathers who have been close to a mother's children, legally you don't have any rights to them. How sad that must be. But if she's determined to move on you don't have much of a choice here. I'm not sure how a step father gets through this, and detaches from kids he was close to. I wonder if you do need to create a distance unless this counselor can get through to your ex to try to reconcile. Join a new church, move, whatever you have to do. You can't live your life in agony like this. If you have no outlet now regular counseling might help. I'm not sure that Christian counseling is the answer if you need to move on, as most Christian counselors don't like to let go of a marriage, they'll hold on and on even when it's over. It might be you'll need a different counselor and one who doesn't even know your ex to help you get through this. When's the next meeting wtih your counselor? Has he contacted your wife? First maybe see how that goes ok?

*sigh*...

I haven't heard back from him yet. I should see him this Sunday I suppose.

Church started a series on Wednesday nights called iPromise. I cried the whole time <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />. If only I had heard that message a year earlier or 10 years earlier for that matter.

My second ex called me today. She wanted to meet. I reluctant agreed to meet her at a coffee shop. She wants to get back together and wants to go to church with me, etc. I politely declined. But that just made me an emotional wreck. I don't need that right now. *sigh*...

Anyway, thanks for the words of encouragement horsey. I think I'm just going to wait and see what happens with this counseling. I don't have any hope that anything good will come of it between my wife and I but I do have hope that he can help me. The rest of it is between her and God. Her life will stay miserable until she is ready for change. I can't bring her to that realization though. She will have to find it on her own. I need to work on myself.

I can't describe the grief that I go through over the children though. I was as close to them as I was to my own. Every day when I came in, the youngest sat in my lap. I helped her oldest with home work on a near daily basis. In some ways, they got more from me than my own children did. I think if I didn't have to deal with the loss of the kids I'd be okay. When I went see the counselor, I kept my compsure as we talked. We talked for a half hour without me shedding a tear or my lip quivering. Then when I mentioned seeing her children in church I broke down. He had to stop and hand me the tissues. The only time I cried in the whole session was the 3 minutes we spent talking about the kids. That's where the pain is at. And all I asked of her was to tell me that the kids were okay. She knows it hurts me. I think that's why she does it. At least that's what the first counselor thought and said and that's the counselor that knows her well and has been seeing her for years.

At least you are finding help through the church. I've yet to find a nice church home. Seems as though I just feel like everyone is judging me. But maybe it's more me then the other church goers. At least through this ****** I found my way back to God. I too look back and wish I knew all of this during my marraige. Sometimes I think of reconciling too. My ex is asking me to. I'm so sick of this town I moved to, it's so blue collar and then I've had bad experiences with babysitters and now this silly investigation into a small bruise my boy had. My life's been a nightmare all over again. Sometimes I have to think that everything happens for a reason. Even the hard times. Look at how the hard times are making you grow, and me too? Do you think we'd grow if everything was easy? I think if you can remember to only show kindness to your wife, even if you are angry, try to calm down and not talk to her or about her during those times. I was reading a book on buddhism, and mindfulness and this isn't a bad idea. I met a man on a place that once did this. He kept a small rock in his pocket no matter what pants he wore. He said it was his reminder to think of his kids and his wife first as he traveled and went about his life. In the buddhist book on Anger it suggested the same, a rock or some symbol to remind us to be kind and not angry. When we are angry we owe it to others to diffuse our anger. When we become more kind, gentle and mindful others will respond typically the same. It only takes one to typically diffuse a situation. Of course I can look back and see how angry I was in my marriage. I thought my ex cheated, I'm not even sure he did. I talked about it, stewed, talked to counselors that weren't helpful, friends and family that of course sided with me. It all made me more angry. Now I'm trying to get back to that place of mindfulness that I need to be. I'm trying not to listen to others. I'm trying not to be as negative. Anger breeds anger. You are still saying your ex is miserable and angry, but then again you said you added to it by bad mouthing her and it got back to her recently. You know that didn't help you or her. So long as you can keep your cool, if it's a rock in your pocket or whatever it takes, try to be kind. Hurting people hurt, and when you can see that she's hurting too, then you'll have more compassion for her. She's not out to get you or hurt you, she's protecting herself. So are you. I'm sorry you miss the kids, I'll pray to my Buddhist god and to the Christian god too for you and her.

Did you meet with your counselor?

I spoke with my counselor this weekend. He met with my wife this past week. He called me today to set my next appointment but our schedules don't work until next week.

He just called me to schedule and didn't mention anything about working with my wife to schedule so my guess is that she will not be going in together. He originally said that he hoped to meet with me first, then her, then the both of us so I'm guessing that's no longer the plan. But I won't know until he calls back to confirm the appointment for next week.

I told you, I'm not real optimistic that there is any hope there. It doesn't mean that I don't wish there was. Sometimes I do. Sometimes I don't. I really don't know what I want. But I know her bitterness and anger runs very very deep at this point. I think it would do her good to be in counseling with me even if reconciliation was not the goal. But I doubt she sees it that way. I suspect her view is that I'm the cause of all that ails her.

I will come back and post more later tonight (either in this thread or I'll start a new one). I want to go back through everything and give some thought and comment again on various topics. There are lots of things I've wanted to say here and there that were lost in my being busy...

Wow, I came back on to post some more, but as I read through this thread from start to finish, my thoughts flowed so much, so quickly that there's no way I could. I could write a point by point commentary to each post in this thread. And worse yet, some posts in other threads have triggered thoughts and reactions as well.

*sigh*. I am too tired tonight to try to articulate concisely a response. I'm trying to avoid writing a novel of course (at least here). It was an extremely long day at work (being the last day of the month) and I am exhausted. I think I will defer further response for a bit until I have a chance to consider just what it is that I want to say and what it is that doesn't need to be said.

I know we've been going in circles on this haven't we?

You won't believe my day. Went to a counselor. Mostly I liked her but at first last week I wondered about her. It was sort of an instinct thing. She had crosses on her wall, I assumed she was a Christian and then today she said the crosses are just a symbol and the Bible is filled with so much "bad stuff".. some is good though. I couldn't believe this, would a counselor really talk like this knowing I was coming from a Christian background. Oh my gosh. Then we talked about my ex, she said that I obviously missed the warning sign of him being married twice before me. This was only 10 minutes after she HERSELF said she was divorced twice. I can't believe my "luck" or lack there of. What does this say about this person, as a feminist she can point the finger at a man married twice but not herself. Did she have NOTHING to do with her marriage problems. That goes back to what I said about how easy it is for us women to cry "victim" and everyone because we are female rallies behind us. Marriage problems are mostly blamed on men don't you think? I think it takes two to tango. I just don't understand it, it's totally different - what a real Christian counselor says and what someone like this would say. Like your counselor saying he'd want to meet or talk to your ex. Other Christian counselors have told me that too. It makes sense actually. It's not helpful to have someone in counseling say what a jerk, then have a counselor say, you are right without knowing the other person. I've half given up on counseling, today didn't help. Can you imagine your doing this? Telling someone "well" and you know the tone of the "well" didn't you see he/she was married three times? When you've been married three times? My ex was married twice before me, sure I wondered but I was open while dating him - and as our last Christian counselor said, that he'd been married twice before should have meant that he's more willing to work on our marriage and make it right. He's to this day saying to me please, please, please. I think counselors, friends and family can be so unhelpful and judgmental. Counselors are supposed to be non-biased but I'm not so sure.

Wow, I never stop being amazed at how much we (people as a whole) pay to counselors who just don't seem to have a clue in the end.

I don't know if I'd be so quick to say it's a woman thing to cry "victim." I think we all do it. We as in humans. I reflect back on my situation and I pretty much did the same thing.

It wasn't my first reaction because I was severely depressed and a bit insecure. Even before it finally fell apart, I knew things were going bad and I was crying inside (and out) trying to figure out where I had gone so wrong to make such a sweet person care so little about and for me. I blamed myself entirely.

But then through some misguided counseling, I quickly turned my attention to my wife and I suddenly felt completely the victim. I mean we had discussed all of this in advance. It was probably the worst thing I could have done, but on our first serious date, I laid all of my flaws that I could see and express on the table. My quirks, my past, my divorces, my bad behaviors, my failures, etc. I figured if she didn't bolt and run then maybe we had a chance (in reflection, that she didn't bolt maybe should have signaled some negative things to me but I didn't see it back then).

I told her how my first wife had wiped me out financially including a very successful business and a six figure income of which the lawyers got most of before it was all said and done. I told her how I had been emotionally devastated and couldn't remarry unless I knew I was with someone who wouldn't run the first time going got tough. I told her how my kids had been abandoned by their real mother and then again by their step mother. I told her how much that crushed them and how long my oldest son was in counseling. I told her I wasn't willing to even introduce her to my kids and wouldn't likely do that until I knew we were serious (and I didn't for a very long time).

I felt at that point like she had broken her promises and commitments to me. I knew I had failed her in some ways but didn't see how any of those things were severe enough to warrant divorce. I viewed her actions as selfish. I mean I was depressed and sick. And despite that I was steady working. I slaved for her and the kids when I lacked energy and could barely get myself out of bed. I accepted her kids as my own. I gave up my home and everything I had to move to her small town to be near her family. When she wanted to quit her full time job and take a weekend job so she could be home with the kids, I stayed home and took care of the kids every weekend. And in the end, when things went wrong, she wouldn't even give us a chance, just abruptly ended it over a preference for her ex husband (my best guess). Never even would give me an explanation.

Boy did I get good at crying victim. But I think it's a human reaction, not necessarily a female thing.

Today, I realize I did a lot wrong. I know that I tore down trust in some ways financially. She did try to tell me. I tried to negotiate and she took an all or nothing attitude. We butted heads and she shut down. That was essentially the end of our marriage. That's the best fix I can get right now as to what went wrong.

I know that my depression was taxing on her. I know that she was going through a lot else as her ex husband got arrested for a serious crime and then fell very ill. I tried to be supportive and I ended up becoming jealous of the attention she was giving to him.

And in hindsight she did try to talk to me a few times and I did the typical male thing. I listened to the mechanics of what she was saying and offered a logical response and didn't hear what she was feeling. I wanted to negotiate the terms when she was feeling devastated by the issue itself and not the particulars.

That doesn't mean I don't think she has fault here to. She gave up way too quick and wasn't committed to working through the problems. She became emotionally involved with her ex husband during our marriage. And her decisions to end the marriage and the way she did it leaves a lot to be desired (particularly the handling of the children).

And then I did the worst possible thing, I completely self destructed afterwards. All of the above, we might could have worked through. I doubt she will ever get past some of the reactionary things I did after she decided to end the marriage. The counselor called back today to confirm the appointment and said that he did talk to her but that she will not go together to cousneling with me. I suppose I knew that all along, I just hoped perhaps that somewhere, somehow a miracle would happen.

But it seems that I cannot do anything to change the course that we are on. All I can do is change my own course. It's unfortunate that the storms will blow me through my third divorce despite any desire and efforts to stear myself clear of that path.

Sometimes I feel like I'm just along for the ride. But then I have to slap myself a few times and remind myself that my life is largely what I make of it. It's time to emerge a newer better self. I know that in my mind, I just have a hard time convincing my heart of the same.

I had a feeling your wife wouldn't want to go to counseling with you. But it's better to know then to hang on right? At least you can continue the steps to get on with your own life. Your wife sounds like a mess actually. A little girl very out of touch. I think you are right, men and women both "cry victim." Our first marriage counselor said my husband and I were both feeling victimized at the time. I supose I abused him by venting, being so angry and I'm not sure the counselor really helped out. Someone I think if I had left and separated, had some space I wouldn't have continued to strike out at him verbally. There were signs that he cheated on me, I found some porn on his computer, I was so angry, I didn't see this before I married him. I thought he was the faithful type. He too told me about past relationships, but looking back he did it in a way that problems weren't his fault, he hadn't learned from his mistakes yet he shut himself down emotionally because of his past hurts. So I married a man with a lot of baggage. It might be that you did some of that to your wife. You'd been hurt before and in some of your actions you were self protecting yourself from that again. You are likely both "at fault" as with most divorces there's always two sides to the story.

At least you are learning from this, you seem to have a clear picture of what happened, and you can see where you need to improve in the future. I like you did a lot of self destruction during and after my marriage. Is it common? I drank some, got depressed, ate too much... then again I haven't been able to find a counselor that I believe to be helpful. It is amazing that we pay for advice from wackos, I think Dr. Harley and Dr. Phil are right, the state of counseling in this country is rediculous. There are many out there that are incompetent and that actually help make things worse then better. They get paid to tell us what we want to hear and sometimes that isn't what we need. We don't need help playing "victim", I think it's more about figuring out our own problems and errors, asking forgiveness, and figuring out how to improve.

I'm not sure if I'll even try to find another counselor. It's all just getting old to me. I need to take one step at a time to finish my divorce. I too wished my ex and I could change the course, I still look back with sadness because we both behaved poorly. Sometimes I wish I could find a counselor to talk with us separately and together, I dont' even have a trust in counselors anymore to go down that road again. Life is largely what we make of it - I've been reading more new agely stuff lately, like the Secret and some buddhist stuff. I know that I've been so negative in my thoughts and that if I'd looked for the best even in my ex I would have brought out the best and not the worst in him. I'm trying to get rid of the cup's half empty mentality.

I normally don't go to church on Wednesday nights because I work the evening shift (by choice so I can go to school) at the company that I work for. I'm very lucky to have a company that is flexible enough to let me do that because my position is typically a daytime position and I doubt I could get the money and benefits I'm making elsewhere that would work around a college schedule.

Anyway, the church I attend started a Wednesday night series called iPromise last week which is about relationships. So, I took a half vacation day for 6 wednesdays in a row so I could go to that series. It's about the marriage commitment.

Last week, attendence was awful because a major accident closed the Interstate for most of the day (well until after church started) and the church is right off an exit and the whole city was in shambles (people were experiencing 3 hour commutes that normally take 30 minutes). The first installment of the series was okay.

But tonights message was absolutely incredible. Of course it's a bit late in my case. It's a message that both my wife and I needed to hear a year ago. The message was titled "When You've Married The Wrong Person." Our pastor is fun enough that you are laughing one minute and literally crying the next. He holds no punches either. Of course a message can't be all that deep in a single hour, but I'd highly recommend it for anyone that likes to listen to that sort of stuff. The church posts audio sermons online, but it probably won't be until next Tuesday or Wednesday before the message gets posted online. I'll come back here and post a link (if that's permissible) once the sermon is posted online.

Yes I'd like that link. I'm thinking of joining a group during the week too for support. I'm pretty much done with shrinks. Read a good Joyce Meyers book, she's a famous Christian preacher/author and she said she doesn't trust counselors, think they can give bad advice and that she learned everything through her own studies, support at church and spiritual advisors. I think the shrinks I went to made my marriage worse and look at the two screw balls I saw recently - one was gay, the other divorced twice - but with totally different views then each other, both filled with their own baggage on a mission and very biased. I think I'll call my church and see if my pastor does counseling himself. Or if they know of someone, I'd rather go get spiritual help then all of this other garbage that just makes me more upset. It requires healing to get through a divorce, and peace, and quiet... I enjoy my buddhist books too, about feng shui, mindfulness, anger, etc. It's a different take on it all. A more compassionate approach then the counselor saying the word perpetrator about my ex when she doesn't know him or have a clue. Anger feeds anger, what happened was my fault too. It'd be nice wouldn't it to just move on after a divorce and blame the other person for everything? To be victims? I'm tired of that, I just want to heal, learn and grow. Meyers says that it doesn't matter about our past, we can come out of it and recreate ourselves. That's why I find the Christian approach so healthy compared to the other.

Here's the link:

http://thefamilychurch.cc/media/encoded_...ng%20person.wma

This is a great sermon on marriages and what goes wrong and the importance of the commitment.

I don't think it will be personally helpful for you horsey2 since your marriage is already ended. Pretty much the same situation for me. But it was a very powerful and moving message to me. It wasn't even that deep to be honest. It's just one of those "about time someone said it" type things I suppose, I don't know.

Actually I guess it won't be helpful, lets just face it mine is over and life will go on. Any of those sermons about how to recreate your life after divorce? Guess that's what those divorcecare groups are for? I think the tapes they play are from some preacher in Calif. I forgot his name. I went to one of those meetings at a church once and got really spooked - the big fat woman on one side had been married three times before, this time for two months, already found a new "mate" on the internet who was about to move out to be with her, another guy across the room just cried and cried (story is his wife left him and he did this every meeting), another said she thought she ought to get a divorce as she prefers to hang out at clubs drinking on weekends rather then being at home, another woman an ex drug user told me she'd hooked up with another ex drug user that she met in the group, and since she'd been divorced a time or two she was the most experienced and the leader of this group...

I think I need to do some more self studies on "moving on" rather then marriage and commitment. I thought the preacher that married us mentioned commitment (and not cheating) but I don't think my ex heard that part...

I go back and see the counselor tomorrow. I've been having a really hard time this week. Not really sure why. I go back and forth I suppose.

I'm doing the same thing. Having a hard time. I'm self employed, I'm behind on a week's worth of phone calls. Wish I could find a good Christian counselor, the one I met a few times had been divorced twice, was quite tainted about life, I thought I sort of liked her but I don't know... I think for me it has to be a Christian counselor, can you imagine she told me her view that about half the Bible was useless knowing my background? She had three crosses on her wall, that's why I asked her beliefs but she said she just likes crosses as they symbolize wholeness or something like that. The counselor before that I was quite certain was gay, never married, and was an "expert" on children of course - having none herself, then said I "use" my boy and get love from him during hard times. Insane really, really insane lady. I have bad luck, over and over again. I'm starting to believe a cousin of mine who had marriage problems and said ONLY Christian counselors. I'm thinking these wackos of the world are quite dangerous and they seem to not believe in God so they play God. Better to have no counselor then a wacko. I'm wacko enough. I had a mini dream today that I could go back to my ex - I can't cook or do yardwork, or change oil in a car - stuff like that he took care of. A lot of this was "me" here I am preaching at you about what I'm really telling myself... others kept saying it wasn't me, it was him, friends/family. It's quite unhelpful actually but I was at fault for whining about my marriage to everyone. I can see my own flaws more being separated, and having no one to blame my poor temper on, he's not even here. Oh well, it's just all so sad isn't it? Being separated, having little hope, realizing mistakes, being fearful of the future... I hope your counseling goes well. I'm going to call the church tomorrow and see if they can recommend someone in town if not through the church. Sounds like you have a really good church.

*Sigh*...

I'm tired of what I'm going through <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />. There are days where I just don't feel like carrying any more. What a sad way to be. I hate that my life has been reduced to this. And yet I have so much that I could and should look forward to, but it all seems to pointless. I'm really down (can't you tell).

I'm missing her kids so much. It seems everytime I try to forget about her, something is there to remind me of her. *sigh*... they say it will get better with time... I wish it would hurry up and get here.

Being my third divorce, you'd think I'd be prepared, but this has been far more devastating than anything I've ever been through before <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

And here I am, just whining and moaning and feeling sorry for myself. I really need to just get a life <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Actually if a shrink was correct about my ex, he said that it's his third divorce would mean it's harder then the others, here he had high hopes to make this work, and it didn't. It's the combination of three failures. When we were having trouble he started drinking more and more. I think it was more then he could take. He might have believed the answer was a new wife, someone unlike the women he married before - and it was their fault - he chose someone different, me. And the results were the same.

But you have an ability he doesn't seem to have. To do some introspection. Some investigation into your past and you are open to finding out what you did to contribute to your problems. He hasn't even been willing to do that really. Oh he'd go to a counselor here and there, mostly to show how messed up his wife was - presenting himself as perfect of course. What's required in relationships is two people both willing to do some introspection and make adjustments accordingly. Conversation. Compromise. Etc.

If you weren't hurting here you wouldn't be learning. If you learn from this the hope is you won't repeat the same mistakes that you made in the past, even if you do believe it was in choosing incompatable partners. You'll be more aware. I'd like to personally take some prozac to fix my depression and anxiety over this, I'm half tempted to do so. But somehow I feel that the pain is necessary in order for us to change - and grow.

I'm also obsessive by nature. Life has been reduced to obsessing about someone and something I can do little about. Certainly there has to be life out there after all of this right? Everyone says it gets better with time but I'm sure there's always a wound. One of the nutty shrinks said I need to disconnect from him - and maybe you do too. Avoiding running into her. Talking to her. Stop the thoughts about her kids that are making you so sad.

My latest books are on health, yoga, and relaxation. I'm going to go down that route. It worked when my dad died and I left my ex. Somehow I was able to stay quite sane at the most insane time in my life. Yoga and breathing really works wonders. Are you open to that at all? There are even some very good dvds that you can buy with yoga practices. I'm going to try to get back to 3-4 days a week, plus cardio exercise. The past month has been horrible and there's a direct correlation I'm sure - I started eating junk food to deal with increased stress and I quit exercising, plus let the clutter pile up in my home.

Already I have a family history that isn't good - mental stuff. I think it comes back and haunts me sometimes. So if you know as well that you have a history of reacting in not so good ways in your home - it might be that you need a lifestyle adjustment as well. I look back at my marriage and realize I was "off" so much of the time. I was angry, sad, took things out on my ex - I wish I'd known more about yoga/relaxation techniques then as I don't think the smaller things would have gotten to me as much. We are in a busy, crazy world today. It's hard to stay relaxed and centered. To control our emotions rather then letting our emotions control us.

One day at a time... so they say. Breathe.

My counselor had to cancel.

I was really let down. I didn't expect any good news or otherwise today. In fact, I expected quite the opposite, but I was still really disappointed.

I guess that's selfish of me. Urgent and more important needs came up and I spent the afternoon crying and feeling sorry for myself <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />