Hey, Pep...two things:

#1--I've been here longer than you have!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> (injecting humor)

#2--I have been reading your post with some interest today, because I completely understand what you're asking. No matter how much wise advise some BS's get, they don't listen, they do the exact opposite, then wonder why they are hurt. Some will do the same mistake over and over and wonder why they get hurt. Some will ask for advise, do what they want to anyway, and then expect support when they are hurt. And you wonder, "What is it with these people? Why won't they listen to wise counsel and take steps to protect themselves?"

I come to you today as such a person. Or at least I was!

The only reason I've been on MB longer than you is because it took me twice as long to learn my lessons! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> If you remember, my exH was mostly verbally, mentally and emotionally abusive, but he also mingled in some physical abuse. He was a mentally ill serial cheater, and plenty of people politely told me to protect myself and get outta there! I don't think they meant so much "end your M" as they meant "move to a safer environment"...but I didn't listen and I stayed for FOREVER.

In my case, and I suspect in the case of SOME of the BS's here who won't protect themselves, the problem is not one of secretly wanting a D. I think it's more a problem of not feeling worthy of protecting. When I first came here, I was unaware that I was even being abused! When that fact first was suggested, I denied it for a long time because I was denying it to myself!! Once I wrapped my mind around the fact, then it took me a while to figure out how to deal with it. I had to learn how to tell what was and was not abuse...which stuff was MY issues and which were HIS...etc. And meanwhile, he'd still be abusive and I'd get hurt and want support...BECAUSE I WASN'T QUITE THERE YET.

I have often said that the hardest thing in the world to do is be a friend to someone who is in an abusive situation (and that could include a non-repentant WS who is flaunting the A) because it is SO frustrating to see the person return again and again and again to a situation that they know is going to hurt them, only to hear, "I got hurt!" It's very hard to hang in there and teach new patterns, and teach healthy techniques, and teach self-value--only to see it all fall apart and see 'em return to the same old habits and the same old dance. Eventually most people give up and say, "To heck with this! If they won't even protect themselves then why in the world should I keep at this?" Sadly, at least for me, I needed people to hang in there with me until I had LEARNED.

Eventually the time does come when the lightbulb comes on. I saw it. I was just as worthy of protection and just as valuable as my WS!! In fact, I was just as valuable a child of God! He wanted me to protect my heart! It was not a good thing to keep leaving my self open to hurt in the hopes that "one day he'll change!!" Then, I was finally ready to hear it...but by then many had already said, "She's hopeless."

Soooooo...I hope that perhaps sheds some light on your question.

Your faithful, old, creeky, decrepit MB friend, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


CJ

Yes, just look at all the different ways Peps question was interpreted. Look at all the different answers, and perspectives.

We all operate from our own frame of reference, and now I understand what Pep is trying to understand.

I rescind my prior statement that I don't think anyone is unable to come up with a plan.

I remember one poster from when I first came who could not get out of bed, was worried about taking the garbage out and other various maintenane issues.

I happen to know that she was in the beginning stages of a nervous breakdown. She could not have worked a plan of protection without serious, immediate, professional help.

When I came here I did not know what was appropriate. Too little boundaries, muddled for too long.

I think I related so well to Venus/Mars because he too didn't know what was appropriate, he had lived a life outside of integrity for too long.

He was also dealing with his own guilt and shame over past affairs. He thought he deserved punishment, so he took it for as long as he could until she divorced him.

Pep, now I understand your desire to understand and the quesstion you have. Because you have a good sense of your self, it would be hard to share a perspective or reference point with someone who does not.

It took me months and months of reading to come to learn even what was appropriate. You probably could not understand what it was I needed, but it didn't matter because I got what I needed anyway.

I know I am not a vet but.....

At the end of World War II a study was conducted by General Marshal to find out why the U.S. soldiers were not as effective in combat at the planners predicted. What they found out after interviewing thousands of soldiers was that on average only 25% of the soldiers actively used their weapons against the enemy, and even when their very life was on the line it only increased to around 50%. The rest simply cowered. They were terrified to the point of catatonia. (Read as Newbies)

This brought about a total change in the intensity of U.S. training and tactics. By Vietnam, virtually all the soldiers in the field actively used their weapons against the enemy. (Read as MB Vets)

Every newbie coming here is like the WWII soldier; untrained and unprepared for the fight. A lot of them will cower even with their marriage on the line. We shout orders at them to attack but it takes time and confidence before some can start moving.

I constantly look back at the mistakes I made from D-Day to Plan B and think “What if I went into this from the first day with the knowledge and understanding I have now?” Everything I would have done would have been swift and sure. But I did not have that knowledge or training and the confidence it would have brought. I spent more than my fair share of time cowering in the foxhole hoping the fight would end.

why does the person giving advice here...need to know the intent of the receiver....

does it change the advice...
does it cause one not to bother posting to the receiver...

the proof is in the pudding....

ark

Ark! You are still around and kicking. Hooray!

I'm still trying to figure out the "protection of self" thing...I have been at this a long time since D-Day. Much counseling, examination of FOO issues, hypnotherapy, tons of reading books/forum, etc. I daily fight with myself over the protection issue (amongst other issues).

Since D-Day we have bought a new house, I have changed jobs, and we have increased our spend rate with the increased income. Why? If I hunkered down to protect myself financially, I might have stayed in the same house, cut spending, and increased savings. But I debate with myself this question: IF there is a possibility we can recover this, wouldn't it be better to live life now AS IF we will recover (i.e. - no financial protection needed)? I choose not to self-protect in this way.

I was never very good at opening up before D-Day, stemming from FOO issues. I did not realize then that I was in a protective mode. Now I KNOW I am in a protective mode and I know exactly the reason why. So, how do I go about trusting more? Should I even let my guard down? When my W does trustworthy things it helps. However, just a couple of nights ago she confessed that she wishes (sometimes, not always) that she did not reveal the A, because she believes it has led to the state of our M right now. For me, this is just an indicator that she and I are not really on the same page with radical honesty. I am left to wonder what life would be like now if I were still in the dark. Plus, it makes me wonder what she will do in the future when she does not want to tell me something (will she hide it from me?). How should I react -- do I clamp down into an even more protective mode?

When a child touches a hot stove, they learn the consequences and will (generally) never do it again. Why? Because their reality has been fundamentally altered FOR LIFE. They have learned to self-protect against that which they learned hurts them. Questions: Are there some BS who are also fundamentally altered FOR LIFE by the experience of becoming a BS? Do they learn a mode of self-protection that lasts forever? Do they have to learn to work around this new self-protection, or can they eliminate it?

For me, I guess I make conscious choices to avoid self-protection in ways I know I can (i.e. - financial). However, I still self-protect in ways I cannot (or have not yet learned to) undo/avoid.

Frankly, I'm not even sure if my babbling is on topic. But there it is, FWIW.

Todd

There's pudding!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Where?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

sometimes at work
in REAL LIFE

I must ask (when it becomes apparent I am not being helpful)

"What is it you were hoping I could do for you?"

sometimes what I think their agenda is ... is flat wrong

they are there for something completely different than I think they are there for ... like, I am offering meds/exercises/referrals.... and they say:
"I need a note to be off work."... and that's IT !!!


and it is a waste of time and effort for both of us

:::related sidebar:::

How many people are not instructed to read "Surviving an Affair", the foundation of most advice given here?

How many people are directed to read "Surviving an Affair" who choose not to do so?

How much does this impact their receptivity to the advice given here, in that so much of it is counterintuitive?

If the newbies DID read the book, would they be more receptive to the advice, and more encouraged to try to put what they learn into ACTION?

SD

pep...

your people
my people

they know what they want......
they happen to have allergies...

allergic
to
ultram
norflex
celebrex
and
vicoden...

demoral
and ms contin...though usually help a little...

arkie....

*snort*

and their DOG ate the entire bottle of the RX they got 3 days ago ....

yeah, uh-huh .... ever try to give a dog a pill?

Pep,

I think that I sometimes fall into the ambivalent category. I can give you a short version of events and my position/thinking at the time. *Warning*, it isn't pretty, or admirable.

1. Got married at a young age (21 & 23). Knew nothing of life and marriage, let alone how to have a good one. Like most people, used FOO as the guide.
2. Had children early, focused on them and financial survival, not M. .
3. FWH had 1st A, with co-worker. Told me the LYNILWY saga. Sons were age 1 & 3. FWH didn't file for D or leave. Lost father 2 mo. later, mom 2 yrs before, I hadn't the financial resources to file and live on my own.
4. Stayed M, FWH never filed, promised to never stray again. Didn't seek counseling or try to understand it, just buried it.
5. Fast forward, 1 more son, multiple corporate transfer moves. Same saga, me entrenched with sons and activities, little attention to M or FWH.
6. Anger/resentment issues on my side, FWH knew that he would be laid off from job, didn't try to find a new position. Judged FWH as not trying at work hard enough to stay, or look for work in order to leave. Oldest son into drugs and alcohol, similar personality to FWH thus I would take out anger on one that was meant for the other. I can also have a controlling nature and when OS rebeled, I didn't take this very well.
7. FWH started A with OW. Meanwhile I came to realize that I needed to change, again w/o counseling. I took my anger inward, turned into depression. I didn't know if I still loved my FWH at this time, I considered leaving. Oh, other stresses was MIL lived with us, 2 adult females didn't mix well.
8. Few months later, FWH announced again ILYNILY, I knew instantly it was another A, suspected before, knew now. Begged, pleaded cried for FWH to go to counseling. He refused, but again stayed, didn't file. I think in part he wanted me to do this, I refused, said I wanted to be M and wouldn't be the one to file.
9. FWH laid off, OW encouraged him in a business venture, I was a skeptic (I'm an accountant) and wanted to see financials, I wasn't being supportive. My behavior at this time, clingey, needed, depressed. His behavior, anger and disgust.
8. FWH took out money from home equity, credit cards, and life savings to buy business. I wasn't assertive due to low self esteem and desperation to hold onto him and the M.
9. D-day 1, FWH left as biz in another state, promised to come back every 2 wks, promised to end it with OW, did the 1st, not the 2nd. I searched internet for support but didn't find MB.
10. Started Dr. Phil's workbooks, MC. Neither worked due to A was ongoing. My behavior CA, hopeful but wasn't assertive. As typical of A's, FWH blamed me for all things wrong with M and his life, while of course privately thinking MOW was all that and a bag of potato chips. I had a lot of guilt over my past behavior, thought I deserved to be "punished" this way, in part, bc FWH also thought this.
11. Continued with the FWH insisting we were thru, me insisting we weren't for about 8 mo., not proud of that. Financially we are struggling at this pt. Lots of signs of A continuing, FWH denying. FWH never filed for D, never saw an attorney. I should have to protect myself and our sons financially. I still punish myself internally for this.
12. Me in IC since d-day 1, on AD's. Sought counseling from parish priest, who knew us both, who asked that could I try to reach out and help FWH? Lots of details I'm omitting but priest thought that this was an abusive situation (emotionally) and that God would not want me to suffer. So, if I couldn't try, or it didn't work, I should leave. Meanwhile my FWH is mostly saying it won't work but sometimes agrees to try (but actually doesn't)
13. I finally decide I would move to be w/FWH and try to salvage M, or at least be near him for our YS sake. Move and d-day #2. Now I'm angry. I saw emails saying he loved MOW, not me, only w/me financially. Still you think I would protect myself and my sons financially, nooo, I sacrifice myself and my sons financial well being. I insist that he decide and if he decided to stay, the OW must be gone, no other way. This is the only thing I insisted on. He agreed to stay.
14. I found MB 3 mo. after d-day #2. I printed questionnaires, he would verbally agree but wouldn't fill them out, no time, he forgot (PA).
15. We didn't have counseling until 9 mo. after d-day, didn't work as the homework was done in the car on the way to the next appt., FWH always too busy. But he wanted the M, so he claimed. I couldn't get the comment out of my head about staying for financial reasons. Me, once again, CA, don't have healthy financial boundaries, don't enforce them. Stopped MC after 9 mo., due to lack of efforts. Me, more depressed.
16. Fast forward, due to my own lack of financial boundaries and assertiveness, we are in pretty much financial ruin. Need to file for bankruptcy, don't have the $. This will hurt my career, but I haven't any choice, now, I had a choice before I got to this place.

Why do I stay? The answer, I love him, not to the same degree as before this mess, but I still do, but should I? I try also bc of the kids. Although not small, D is still a devastating negative for a child. See all kinds of examples of nieces and nephews being messed up due to siblings on both side's divorce. I wanted to avoid doing this to my sons, however, what we are living through isn't good either.

I guess it looks as though I should know what to do, but in truth, I don't. I have a successful career, I make 4 times what FWH, so that isn't it this time. That's why I come here, not for someone to tell me what to do, but to provide perspective, maybe a nudge in the right direction. I don't want to end the M, it may end up that way, but I am not seeking permission to give up, I know I have plenty of reason to do so. I think I'm searching for a way to stay.

Hope this helps.

I guess it would all depend on the person. Some people wear their emotions on their sleeve...see me raising my hand. Others can become sullen.

I think if a person is expressing desire to overcome the situation and yet they still remain stuck... that they are due the benefit of doubt about their hopes and need help getting through things. Dr. H says that affairs cause depression. There are very few things as disabling as depression...people kill themselves over this stuff... they kill others. I think it is safe to say that if they were able to get to a better place in a healthy fashion, they would choose to do so.

MEDC

thanks MEDC

quite helpful

Pep

yanno Pep, you don't stated a clear objective, but you have no problem jumping on my response. The part of forgiveness that "applies" to your question is that the BS has to promise to themselves, and it involves the "protection" aspect you are mulling over. I'll tell you what, instead of discussing how it might apply to your search for how to try to have a way to help everyone....let's just drop it.

I'm fresh out of any will to fight with you. I wonder if that's at all similar to the mindset you are exploring?

Guess we'll never know.

So let's just leave it with the one "universal" truth to consider about all the advice that is offered, and taken or not taken,....."you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink."

Later, Pep.

Hum...I would like to aspire to be a vet...hum...the duration of the stay would be? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

LMAO <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

there's also been some speculation here about people that just disappear from MB... perhaps this wasn't working for them... perhaps they found something that worked better for them... perhaps they decided their spouse wasn't worth spit and decided to leave... there could be lots of reasons people leave here without so much as a word. I am sure that some of the WS that come here disappear because they went back to their affairs. I am equally sure that some here are weving a tale that is nothing more than an opportunity to amuse themselves... lets go back to the multi talented poster last summer that had full blown conversations with herself here!

[color:"red"] CJ [/color]

Thank you



See right here ... I think to myself

MB message board trying to "fix" this is like a hairdresser trying to fix a race car's transmission

the wrong tool box !!!!!!!!!!!!

this is NOT a therapy board

scary to me when someone is trying to function as-if MB were a therapy board

really scary ... blind leading the blind

Pep <~~~ poor vision

[color:"red"]FH [/color]



I was unaware we were fighting... but I am very happy not to fight as well.

Pep

I think "vet school" is at least 4 years post graduate school plus an internship <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />