I have a long bookshelf of books on climatology and I’d love to debate it with anyone at all. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

lol. funny man you are.

Seriously, Kiwi, your heart's in the right place. Each of those deaths yesterday was a horrible example of how many times the evil of Satan enters our world. While I cannot praise the kids who did not resist that evil act, I surely wouldn't wish this evil upon them or anyone else in the world. I have the utmost sympathy for their families and pray God will comfort them in their time of grief.

LOL, LH, I wondered if I was going to be able to reply in time to stop you two having one last go at each other but no, I wasn't. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Global warming? Hmmm, let's see.....

Ah no, I don't think we'll go there. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And thank you, I pray for them too.

<sniff> What a pity. I really do have all sorts of scientific books, studies, films, etc. If you won't let me discuss them, it'll all go to waste. Pretty please?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Only if you agree with my view on it.

Something tells me that's not going to happen. LMAO. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> j/k Well, not kidding that I bet we disagree, but kidding that you're only allowed to talk about it if you agree with me.

There must be something discussable that's not going to get fur flying. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well, let's see...hmmm...I KNOW...Mr. W is gonna be 40 tomorrow!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> I can't believe it!!! Dang we are gettin' "long in the tooth" 'round here! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

LOL, Mr W's over the hill, Mr W's over the hiiiiillll.

Sung to the tune of nyany, nyany, nyah, nyah.

Ha! Tell him it's all downhill from here.

Kidding aside, tell him Happy Birthday and it's not that bad.

Big deal, Mrs. W. But tell Junior I said many happy returns anyway. I'll be 59 on Friday and have kids his age...literally. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Kiwi: My goodness, the essence of discourse is to convince someone else to change their mind based on logical exchanges with charts and data and scientific studies and stuff like that. You're actually going to pass up this opportunity?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And then the NRA nuts call the Brady-bunch "idiots." Name calling doesnt advance anything!


Oh, dear God! Now even the Founding Fathers were nuts.


They didnt need to. They knew history. They new human nature. The Roman empire couldnt have forseen the firepower that the colonists had. The Founding Fathers knew this. They knew that things would change.

But many things would remain the same. Always.

We try to think we are so much smarter than them. We ignore history and say we are different...unique.

They knew better. They would be very disappointed in us today...because they would know exactly where we are headed. And it aint good!

To tell you the truth, LH, I haven't gone into it in enough depth to be able to have an informed discussion/debate. My H, however, has. You just said charts and data and scientific studies and my mind just glazed over.

Y'know my H and I are completely in agreement on all the things that really matter to us. Just throwing that in there cos it's nice. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Okay, Kiwi. I gave it my best shot. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

That is nice, Jen!

This is just the saddest thing I've heard of in a long time. It doesn't matter, right now, what shoulda/coulda been done differently yesterday. What matters is that there are so many grieving affected people. So many people that live in a different world today than they did on Sunday - friends and family gone in the blink of an eye.

Folks,

I have been reading this thread all day, but could not respond. I have watched the turns it took and was very sad for it.

Cinderella, Kiwi, and actually all of the rest DO agree on one thing...what a tragic loss of innocent life and potential. I cannot imagine how the parents are going to deal with this.

What saddens me more, is that there will be lots of finger pointing, lot's of "what if's", lots of the people at the University should have known's. Missing the really important part, those children are gone, to heaven I hope.

Most normal people really cannot conceive of the actions of a nut, yet they happen.

The police were there on campus after the first shooting, but they could not defend those other kids. And the kids themselves were defensless. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I am on the side of MM and LH with respect the right to bear arms. However, I watch people drive, and the thought of most of these people packing is pretty scary.

I think kids should NOT have to carry weapons to school, but if most of them knew how inaccurate a pistol can be, I would bet they would not have stood still. If they knew how to defend themselves and use anything around them I would bet they would not have stood still. If, if, if.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

If they knew what I know they would have had a better chance and it saddens me that the didn't and yet we do our best to rear our children to be "good" kids. We did our best to get rid of the draft and other experiences that would have given them a better chance so that they would have a better world.

I am sorry folks, this isn't about who can or should be armed. It is about a nut, a man with no sense or need to survive, taking as many as he can with him. If he hadn't had a gun, he could have made explosives. I knew how to take your garden variety chemistry set, that assured parents there nothing was explosive, and made things go boom from the age of 11. If he was set on taking lives, he could have done it many ways and even more efficient ways than a pistol.

It is just sooooo sad.

God Bless those kids,

JL

JL, thank you as always.

I think it all happened so fast and was so unexpected that even if you were trained it wouldn't have made much difference. As I said before, I just can't imagine the logistics of letting that many people know in such a short time. I noticed during the news conference that someone asked the President why he didn't just walk around telling people. I looked at Rob and said, that would be like the Vice Chancellor (our President) taking a walk around our very large campus and saying, "everyone move along and go home."

I know what rabbit warrens universities are. Hundreds of rooms in many, many buildings. People coming and going en masse and not like high school where it's orderly and controlled. Well, it was in my day anyway. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

This has really affected me and I KNOW it's because I work at a university. Well, that's not all it is. I just hate it.

Kiwi

I wanted to thank you for starting this post. I know it hasn't gone exactly the direction you wanted it to, however it has stopped to make me think. For that I thank you.

It has stopped and made me think as to how I have equipped or not equipped my own children to handle this type of situation. How vulnerable they really are when we haven't given them the tools to try to protect themselves. Yes we teach them to not go with strangers and how to avoid being taken, not to wander off in stores. But what do we tell our kids about being in school, a teen almost to graduation going off to college herself.

I don't have the expertize that MM or LH have to give to my children. I wish I did or that my spouse did. It has made me stop and discuss this with my oldest teens, and to talk about situations in which maybe you should fight back and not just do what is asked. I also know that responses to things need to be practiced so they come easily and automatically. However how do you do that when you personally are not trained? We live in a very small town and our schools have had several lock downs it is sad. The kids talk about the fear they have felt and the other kids have felt. Doesn't matter if they are teens or elementary. However what good does it do to lock down a school when they have a gun? What protection comes from hiding in a classroom when the assailant has a gun. I think there was a school in Texas that was teaching some tactics to kids on how to handle a situation and fight back. However there was an uproar as to why do that.

Would people continue going into schools if they knew that people would fight back. If they knew it wasn't going to be that easy. I don't know. However I do know I need to take another look at how I am teaching my kids.

Thanks again everyone for giving me much to think about.

Another finger some people will point is, "his parents must have been horrible parents". Well, that's not necessarily true. Some people do everything right and something just goes wrong.....

I read something interesting in "Cure for the Common Life" by Max Lucado. He said, 'Train up a child in the way he should go and, when he is old, he will not depart from it' doesn't mean 'teach the right stuff to your child and the child will turn out to be a great adult'. His perspective is that it may mean, 'train your child, focus on their gifts, point them in the path (skills) that are right for them and they will be more productive adults'.

Malevolent influences abound and you can not control the fact that your child may not have the same values as you. You can only be as good as you can be. Perfection is not possible. We are all flawed people.

How would you let thousands of people know to stay put....don't go outside. Lock the doors of the rooms NOW!!! Don't come on campus. ???????????????????????????? How could anyone do that?

Thanks bjs. I don't know if fighting back would have done anything. Look at 9/11. Those on the plane (over Washington?) made the attempt, they didn't succeed. The four who escaped at VA Tech played dead, they also fought back by trying to block the door. The others who survived jumped out the window.

I remember reading somewhere that to survive you have to put yourself first. You have to be prepared to walk on dead bodies.

I don't know. This has just thrown me.

I can understand. However I think that talking about it, debating it and bringing some of these things to the attention of others is a good thing.

If it weren't for infidelity we wouldn't have to have this board. However we have a place that we can come and get other opinions on how to deal with certain situations. Some of them work sometimes, others work other times. However without the debate, suggestions some of us would never know what to try or how to handle a situation.

Not one answer will work in every situation, however it gives us options, and I think to a degree gives us strength in these situations.