How can we make it harder for people to get guns?

How about if there was mandatory communication between the different mental agencies and the police dept and the stores that sell guns.

I mean red flags so the sick, deranged people can not get guns so easily... and give up their rights to privacy if they want to obtain a gun.

There is clearly no easy answer, but there must be a better way.

First off...no. The Consitution does not qualify any of our rights under the Bill of Rights. Do we say that you must be educated in order to be able to use your First Amendment rights? How about religion? Does the person who is preaching have to have an education from some religious school or university before being allowed to preach?

No. Our rights are our rights. If we can ignore or limit them...then we really have no rights...because we can just change them on a whim for whatever reason. The Consitution states that I have Freedom of Speech. And as long as my freedom does not take away another's...then government has no right or responsibility to touch my right. My rights stop where my neighbors start.

Would it be beneficial for people who have fireams to have training? Sure! I would recommend it. But, no matter how we look at it...it is illegal to mandate it. Most of the firearms laws we have on the books today are unConstitutional. You cannot pass laws that circumvent the Constitution. When there is a discrepency between a law and the Constitution, then the Consitution wins everytime. If we dont like the Constitution...then there is a process to change it.

That is a different argument.

But right now...thank God...there is a 2nd Amendment.

People say "well, cars are dangeour machines and we require drivers license and testing." I say "so what?" Sure...as I said before...it would be beneficial for someone to have firearms training. But a car is not a RIGHT. A firearm is a RIGHT. And rights can only be taken away thru due process. Because I have chosen to give them up (ie by committing a crime).

On mentally ill or criminals...yes, we can limit them. And I am all for the background checks. I am for strengthening them so that nut jobs are on a list also...and are banned from owning a firearm as long as they are a nutjob.

But, my argument centers on our rights. When we play loose with those rights in order to get some kind of perceived "safety"...as one of our Founders stated...we deserve neither safety nor freedom!

Dont want to make it harder for people to get guns. How about we change your question a little? How about we ask...how can we make it harder for criminals and nutjobs to get guns? Now...I am all for that!!!!!!!


Now you are talking Weaver!! These are the solutions to the problems posed by the VT events!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />


Now yo uare on the right track!!!!

to get a concealed weapon permit in Philly is ridiculously easy .... as it is in Virginia based on everything I have read.

Since no one chimed in...here is the answer: The Bath School Disaster, 1927. Bath Township, Michigan. Killed: 45, injured: 58.


Answer: Hundreds of pounds of dynamite and pyrotol

Okay MEDC...what are the requirements??

MM... I'll take a guess at your question... Jonestown...

See above!

I thought Jim Jones ran a school at his compound... I know over 250 kids were included in the 900 plus dead. A lot of them were murdered.

Wow... that Bath School stuff is horrible... the guy was certainly an evil person the way he planned that and had bombs go off after the recue workers would have arrived.

Virginia

Requirements:
* Take a class, NRA, military, security guard, police training, etc.
* Go to the Circuit court of your residence. Ask the Clerk of the Court for a "Concealed Weapon Permit Application." Fill out the application form and bring driver's license, DD-214 (if prior military). While the speed that each jurisdiction processes the permit application differs, by state law the permit must be issued or denied within 45 days of application.

Documents required:
* Application Form.
* Proof of training.
* Photo ID (driver's license) DD-214.
* Fingerprinting of concealed handgun permit applicants is a local option; some jurisdictions require it, some do not.

________________

Oaky...so what else needs to be required? As I said, CCWs permits have never been a problem and those with them are rarely involved in firearms crimes. So, what other limitations should there be? And second question...why are we limiting the folks that arent using the weapons to commit crimes?

The position people take on this is partly based on philosophy, and arguing about such matters picks at people's core values - a sensitive and tenacious area, like a wart.

There isn't anything unethical about owning a gun and as a liberal I don't generally believe in banning things.

As for the current system/s for managing gun ownership in the USA, it could use improvement. If the VT killer was declared mentally unsound by a judge, his ability to easily purchase a gun was a system failure that needs to be addressed, absolutely. States' rights are not so precious that efficient information sharing violates them.

Knee-jerk legislation is usually a mistake. Knee-jerk refusal to allow something on the table is too, though I understand the impulse when it's a pet cause.

GC

Yep. All generations have had their share of nutjobs!

Have no problem with this GC. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Actually, I was on the right track when I said this -



<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

But I read somewhere that a great mind is one where two opposing thoughts could be held simultaneously...so I gave it a whirl. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

What about his "rights" 2 be a nutjob? At what point in nutjobbedness does someone cross over in2 infringing on others' rights with their nutjobedness? At what point should the nutjob's right 2 bear arms have been rescinded?

I still don't think that gun control is the issue IN THIS CASE. And since we're now focused on how 2 best prevent similar occurrences in fu2re (how many copycat threats were there yes2rday alone?), I think we need 2 focus first on how 2 prevent them in the CURRENT LEGAL ENVIRONMENT. The arguments over gun control will continue for years, decades, even cen2ries. Rightly and/or wrongly.

A little self-defense training might go a long way in the short term.

-ol' 2long

"Walking the street in her naked feet.
So full of rhythm, but I can't find the beat.
Snapping her heels, clicking her toes.
Everybody knows just where she goes.

Fear, Fear, she's the Mother of Violence,
Making me tense to watch the way she breed.
Fear, she's the Mother of Violence,
You know self-defense is all you need.

It's getting hard to breathe.
It's getting so hard to believe.
To believe in anything at all.

Mouth all dry, eyes bloodshot,
Data stored in microdot.
Kicking the clouds with my moccasin shoes.
TV dinner, TV news.

Ah ah, cause Fear, Fear, she's the Mother of Violence.
Don't make any sense to watch the way she breed.
Fear, she's the Mother of Violence,
Making me tense to watch the way she feed.

Only way you know she's there,
Is the subtle flavor in the air.
Getting hard to breathe,
Hard to believe in anything at all

...But Fear."

-Peter Gabriel, "Mother Of Violence"

2L, asked how do we prevent this with regard to a "nut job" crossing over, and the sad but true answer is one does not. At least and retain the many freedoms and options we have come to love and expect.

The only real issue in my mind is there a way to minimize the damage? And even that is difficult.

Oklahoma City proved that one can creat massive destruction with no guns. The terrorists in Japan were using Saran (sp) gas in the subways. And so it goes.

One should not become accepting of this stuff, but the reality is that most people are NOT of "nut job" status.

Just thoughts.

JL

I'm coming in on this late and I haven't read the whole thread, so forgive me if I go over stuff you guys have already talked about, but my impression is that this thread is a discussion about gun control....

In all this talk, you are all villifying the shooter (naturally) - (and his parents, in some cases) - lots of names being called here - nutjobber is a horrible name...

As the sister of a paranoid schizophrenic brother (now dead), I'd like to say my perspective on this tragic event is a little different. Having seen the videos of this guy on the news, it's clear to me the boy was mentally ill...

It is also clear that his teachers felt so strongly that he was a danger to his fellow classmates that they desperately tried to get him treatment....it is significant when people notice a person's behaviour so much that they actually try to do something about it...most people let things go because they don't want to make waves....this guy was so disturbed and disturbing that a LOT of people tried to say and do something about it....

But what happened? He didn't get treated, even though the mental health unit where he was assessed stated that they thought he was a danger to himself and others....

Under Virginia's gun laws, he was allowed to buy a gun....go figure....this was a tragedy waiting to happen...

Why?

First, because people villify the mentally ill, and they throw them away, treat them like rubbish...worse, don't take their illness seriously....

Second, because the gun laws are too lax....

I believe people should have the right to bear arms, and yes, maybe someone could have "taken him out" if someone on campus had had a concealed weapon....but I think in all practicality that was a long shot....in other words, not likely....

The real issue here is how you treat the mentally ill. Mental health services are under-funded the world over. I remember a bumper sticker in California in the 1980's - "California's Mental Health Service - You're Walking Around In It!". People who are mentally ill, and the families of the mentally ill are treated like dirt. And whenever a mentally ill person does something terrible, they blame the parents, and the family. The statistics are that the people most in danger from the mentally ill are his own family - they kill their own parents more often than anyone else.

The truly tragic thing is that a paranoid schizophrenic is a person, not a monster, and often a kind and gentle person. My brother was such a person. I can't explain evil. I can tell you that I have heard and seen it in action. I sat in the front seat of a car with my brother in the back seat one night, realizing the journey was going to be a rough ride, and that my brother was dangerous, and I heard two voices coming from the back seat, alternating one after the other. First, the raging voice, spewing venom, expletives, rage, calling us every name in the book and blaming us for everything. Then quiet. Then the voice of the brother I knew coming out quietly and saying "You know I don't mean that, you know I really love you. You know I don't know why I'm saying that. You know I really love you." Then rage again, like an engine revving up, spewing rage. They went back and forth, the two voices, alternating, for the whole of the journey. It was an unearthly experience. My mother, who was driving, and I could only sit and listen in awe. Fear and trembling is not the word. But my heart broke for my brother that night, and I lost all the resentment and anger I had against him. I realized that he was in the grip of a terrible and all-powerful disease, and that he was not in control of it, or himself. He desperately needed treatment, which we were trying to get for him. I realized that if he were to harm anyone, he would not be culpable because he would not be capable of stopping himself. But inside, my brother, the brother who loved, still existed, and was remorseful. That person was like a person buried alive inside himself.

Whenever I hear of a crazy person killing someone, and I'm talking here about a schizophrenic, not a psychopath - psychopaths are different - but a person who is mentally ill - my heart breaks for the victim, but also for the perpetrator and his family. Many schizophrenics who kill do so when they are off their medication, and are extremely remorseful afterwards.

So think about what you are saying here on this thread when you are talking so freely about "nutcases".

It is not clear yet, but it is very possible, this boy was not a psychopath, but he WAS mentally ill. His parents are not necessarily monsters (although they could be)....they could be very decent people who are totally bewildered by their son. So you should all stop pointing fingers and calling names until the facts are known.

My brother is dead now - died five years ago, aged 43. Our family thank God he died without ever having harmed anyone, although he did spend 3 years on a locked ward at one point. My brother also, in the course of his life, saved three lives....

And I'd just like to say one more thing - Our Lord came to heal. And who did he heal more often in the Gospel? The mentally ill - the people posessed by an evil spirit. Many of the people brought to Jesus for healing by their families were people suffering mental disorders. Jesus saw their suffering and wept with pity.

So all you who call yourselves Christians, think about how far your Christian charity extends....

I am not trying to minimize the suffering of the victims of this terrible tragedy. I am saying that if the shooter were mentally ill, you all need to think about how you treat the mentally ill....and people HAVE to start taking mental illness seriously and start supporting funding of treatment for the mentally ill. It is possible that this tragedy could have been averted if this person could have been treated.