Sorry about that! I know lots of these folks, and I've never knew anyone who preferred to live like that. Everyone I know just felt helpless to resolve the issue, and was very codependent about trying to get others to help, sure this was the last time it would get that bad.

If she thinks that's okay, you're looking at a lack of empathy. Because this makes oyu very unhappy. Did she live like this when you were dating, or did she promise to change it for you? Just trying to understand the mindset.

Does she think she cannot be happy trying to live like this? Would she be willing to try it just for two weeks? You could take her to a hotel suite with a kitchen, and see if she thinks she could try living this way, to bring you peace. As a gift to you.

Have you explained in counseling how hard it is to live like this when you're not wired that way? It makes it really hard to even think, much less to fall asleep or enjoy a meal. Flylady talks about this all the time, how it makes kids grumpy and misbehave. I'm an adult but I feel like that, too, that I can't relax even when I'm at home when I'm at someone's house like that.

Have you guys really talked about that, why it would seem an act of war to her? There's plenty more stuff at the store if she ever needs it. Or she could move it to storage. It's not convenient, but it would allow you to sleep better, look forward to coming home.

Ah - good question! When we started dating she had nothing - she was living in a house owned by her employers - no furniture even - just lawn chairs in the living room. Very minimalist - and this was really attractive to me. I have always been a minimalist myself. Right after we got married her parents said "come get your stuff!" and in came a few dozen boxes of "precious" stuff. I should have seen that as an omen.

It has been a constant source of friction in our relationship and it was a big topic in counseling. In a year and a half, the only real concession she made was to allow one junk drawer in the kitchen (out of about 6) be emptied. And that was a huge battle. At one point she agreed to "go through" one box a month. But she never followed through on that.

So yes, beyond the actual clutter, the lack of empathy and the unwillingness to negotiate about it has poisoned our relationship. I completely agree with Flylady - this kind of clutter and chaos is serious business with real consequences. Her contemptuous disregard for my deeply held convictions on this (and other things) has created lots of resentment.

"Her contemptuous disregard for my deeply held convictions on this (and other things) has created lots of resentment."

I think this is the source of the problem. I am not a cluttery person, but my idea of DS (mop the floors once a week) and H's (mop daily) led for just this type of resentment. I have no problem if H wanted to mop the floors the other 6 days of the week, but it made me resentful about even the one day I was mopping because of how he saw me as deficient.

Coming to MB and LovingAnyway's support helped me to get over that; I no longer feel deficient about that. We both work full time, but I do most of the DS. But now I enjoy doing these chores, because I'm more self-motivated now. FlyLady helped me with that, too, not waiting for the thank you.

Anyhow, when you see someone as deficient; it feeds that lack of empathy on both sides. You call it your convictions, as if she is wrong. I encourage you to make your statements about you.

Instead of focusing on it this way:
"This is disgusting/irrational"
"She values her clutter over your happiness."

How about reframing it in your mind? before you speak with her?

"I'm not comfortable."
"I can't think straight when things are all out like this."
"I am happy all day in my organized life until I come home to this."
"There are many things I love about you." and focus on those, and share them.
"I understand how this works well for you. I am just asking we try it for two weeks another way, to see if you could be happy like that, too."
"I want to be happy with you."
"I respect you enough to know that I am more important to you than these objects. I know that we can find a way to be happy together"

By the way, my friends with the hoarding issues, live in two houses, and date and spend evenings together. Would something like that work for you, where she could come over to your minimalist place, or you all could go out?

I really think that if you and W went away for two weeks, she'd see how lighthearted and happy and in love with her you are. She'd see the man she fell in love with, not the years of resentment this lifestyle has created. Driving home to the old life would be awful for BOTH of you, and she'd be grateful to let you "rescue" her. No way she'd miss having all that stuff. And if she did, if she truly needs that in order to function, then maybe it would be time to explore a two home solution.

Would you prefer a two home solution to divorce?

EO,

Spending two weeks away from the mess would not change anything. When we travel she brings mess and chaos with us. She would never feel "grateful" to let me "rescue" her from her own clutter. This is totally wishful thinking.

Owning 2 houses?! That's a creative (though expensive) approach. If it takes living apart to save a marriage... something just seems wrong with that - adapting to the problem instead of solving it

Tell her "I'm not comfortable"? REALLY? Do you think she doesn't know I'm not comfortable? I used to think the reason I couldn't get thru to her was that I just wasn't saying it the right way, or using the right words, or making the right analogies, etc. Then I realized - this isn't a communication problem! These things have been said 50 different ways. The problem is with the receiver, not the sender.

If such simplistic solutions work for you, then you are blessed. I suspect that you have no experience dealing with someone like my W and don't understand the powerful irrational attachment she has to clutter. It is not logical, so applying logical solutions has no affect.

And this approach to life is not limited to clutter. I used clutter as example of the POJO question that started this thread. Imagine this same kind of problem spread thru many areas of our relationship and maybe you can appreciate the shape our relationship is in.

"When we travel she brings mess and chaos with us."
Does she bring four feet around the bed's worth? What about separate hotel rooms, then?

"If it takes living apart to save a marriage... something just seems wrong with that - adapting to the problem instead of solving it"
Yes, there's something wrong, but there is a limit to what one person can do. It sounds like more workable option that divorce to me. How about to you?

"If such simplistic solutions work for you, then you are blessed."
Yes, simplistic solutions have made a huge differnce for me living with a husband whose drinking used to drive me nuts. Now it doesn't bother me so much when he's out drinking and driving; I can go on with my business and usually have a good evening anyways. Better than when I used to get depressed and despondent all the time. There's not a thing I can do to help him with that if he doesn't want it.

Sure wish I could box up the car and the booze, but I have no power to do that. That's why it made me really happy to post to you and talk about a problem I was able to get some resolution with in my extended family. Even Flylady talks about creating a bed and breakfast at home, because of the association between travelling and being temporarily free of the clutter.

I'm a grateful member of Alanon. They call it a simple program for complicated people. The closer I stick to those principles the more peace I find. MB for me is also a simple program for complicated problems. The MB solution would be to eliminate Love Busters, like disrespectfully judging her, and continue to bring your taker to the negotiation table to brainstorm a win-win solution. Also they are really clear that this program doesn't work for addictions, because the addiction is more powerfully rewarding than getting ENs met by the spouse. So if you can get rid of the LBs and still have trouble at the negotiation table, that's when to look at options like Plan B separation.

I still like the two-house solution.

EO,

If she does not see a problem with the clutter, how will getting away from it help at all? I'll be happier and she notice the difference? She won't associate that with the clutter problem - because she does not see it as a problem. Until she does - nothing will change.

Separate hotel rooms? Separate houses? So, in other words, don't deal with the problem - find a way to ignore it and not let it make me miserable - even if it means living separately to preserve the marriage? Sorry - you and I will just have to disagree on this. To me that is not a marriage.

Thanks for your suggestions - I know you are eager to help.

"So, in other words, don't deal with the problem - find a way to ignore it and not let it make me miserable - even if it means living separately to preserve the marriage?"

Well, I saw it as a legitimate way to deal with a problem; what you can do as one person. I don't consider it a way to ignore it; I consider it a way to be happier than today. Not a marriage? What about folks who sleep apart because of business travel or military service or working different shifts? She could still come sleep over <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

What is attractive about divorce? Something must've kept you there in counseling this long. I'm trying to support you in the choice you make today, to go home this evening, to share your presence. To be happier about it today.

What's attractive about divorce?

* Not being surrounded by clutter
* Not having to justify the desire to not be surrounded by clutter
* Not feeling like a victim of an addicted, passive-aggressive "partner"
* Hopefully someday finding a partner who shares the same values and is capable of "normal" marital negotiation

BTW, the counseling was about 6 years ago.

Hi ItIs,

I suspect you've tried this already but...

Do you have a room in the house that is your own and that her clutter is not allowed to encroach on? It might help your feelings of oppression from the clutter if you had a place to escape it without leaving the house.

Would this work in your case, or is your wife adamant that she has control over every portion of the house?

Like you said, we can agree to disagree. I think the first three are things that you can accomplish without her help. But I respect that you don't feel that way.

I don't know what to say about the last one. You can read on these boards that people have different problems that are just as bad with the second spouse, and it's not till you get to the third one before the divirce rate comes down. I can't imagine going through two painful diverces, painful to everyone involved, for a chance at happiness the third time. And the folks I know are just as bad issues with the third partner, too.

I do have a room that is "mine" - my office (I work at home). It is helpful to have this oasis.

EO! Finally a subject your Pollyanna outlook doesn't extend to! So let me take the optimistic viewpoint this time and point out that:

A) Almost by definition, people who come here are the ones with significant problems.

B) It is painting with a pretty broad brush to imply that all second marriages (and third marriages) are exactly the same.

C) No relationship is perfect, but not all marriage problems are of equivalent severity. Some problems are certainly worse than others.

D) This has been a real learning experience - my eyes are wide open now. I have a deeper understanding of relationship dynamics - and I know where my lines/limits are now. That should help with future relationships, though of course, there are no guarantees.

Hi Itis,

I think in cases of addiction which this seems to be you would be well within your rights to walk. However, it all depends on what you want out of life.

I had a previous partner who had clutter issues (although not as bad as you describe), was horrible with money (spending addiction), had porn and computer game addictions and was bossy and controlling.

I tried to go along and get along, but ultimately I decided that I didn't want to go through my life making allowances for things that I thought were totally wrong. So I divorced and went on with my life. Luckily there were no children involved.

You are the only one who can decide whether this is the right decision for you.

Exactly my thoughts. In our case our kids are grown, so this will not be without consequences, but I think they'll understand.